Granite in 2019 and Beyond....

[SeraphimKensai]

When CoH launched back in 2004 people were literally in awe whenever they saw a 2 ton chunk of sidewalk teleporting or walking around to save the day. They could sit in the thick of it and go cook dinner, while other tanks had to be more active. Granite was essentially god mode back in the day, bar few enemy types, a Granite tanker was not dying.

 

That was balanced out by being nigh unmoveable. It couldn't run, jump, or fly. Its powers suffered a huge debuff to recharge speed and damage output, so it wasn't killing anything either. But it excelled at holding agro, and taking the hits the rest of the team or raid couldn't.

 

*ED came by and nerfed everything across the board, this (rightfully) took away a Stone Armor tanker's immortality with Granite Armor, but the massive debuffs persisted as it could still out tank everything else.

*IO's came by, and made it so other tankers or brutes since they had been introduced when CoV launched could build themselves to be nigh unkillable gods, Stone Armor over the years saw a massive reduction in the number of people playing the powerset as overcoming those limitations the set had since launch became a waste of time when someone could turn an Invuln tank or the recently added Willpower tanks into gods.

*Incarnate content came by, and all the powersets further benefited, leaving Stone tanks to collect further dust.

 

As just about anyone is aware the standard rule of thumb, is that people almost will not play a Stone Armor character without a Pocket Kin.

 

Given all that, what I would suggest, which in order of priority....

 

1. Let Stone Armor Tankers in Rooted or Granite jump or fly. The limitation to do so is kind of silly considering we are all superheroes, what's to say a Rock Golem can't fly? Maybe a magic spell was placed on them that let's them , or they have some really advanced rocket boots? With the new addition of Force of Will, I think Mighty Leap would be a great fit for a chink of sidewalk landing on a mob of 5th Collumn flattening Nazi's left and right.

2. Let's ease up the -damage (which is -30%, I mean why would getting punched by something weighing 2 tons cause less damage? The weight alone should crush its puny target).

3. Let's ease up the -recharge (which is -65%, hasten is a +70%, so you get slightly better than baseline recharge with hasten running, perma hasten is pretty much impossible in Granite as well).

 

Perhaps we have a -50% speed debuff on Granite/Rooted (perhaps 25% per power) paired with a -30% recharge reduction, which is still a significant overall debuff to a player, albeit less severe than the current debuffs.

 

Like I suggest, the first proposed change would basically be for thematic purposes and doesn't really effect combat, just gives players more choices on how they get around.

The other 2 would have an impact on combat, but I think in the age of IO sets and incarnate content, these would make people enjoy playing the powerset more, but not completely break the set outside of a reasonable balance.

 

Any thoughts? 

 

Edited October 1, 2019 by SeraphimKensai

[quixoteprog]

I could kind of see the no run, no jump, no fly thing as being thematic. Even the -recharge, kinda. You are a big chunk of stone. Although, if you have magic that allows people to fly and shoot laser beams from their eyes, I'm not sure why a rock is only allowed to do one of those things and not the other.

 

And the -damage, as you say, makes no sense and is just garbage. It is not fitting with the theme, unless you are turning into a granite colored pillow or something.

 

Although, a pillow tank would kind of rock, if you pardon the pun.

 

[Vanden]

What if they added a +Strength to Run Speed effects to Granite? It shouldn’t affect Granite’s run speed debuff, since the power has enhanceable resistance buffs and would have to be flagged to ignore outside buffs, but it should make self run speed buffs like Swift and set bonuses more effective while in Granite. That way, it wouldn’t be so hard to overcome the penalty with set bonuses.

[Marine X]

I have a Stone / Fire Melee Tank ( Livingston ) and remember well all the changes that kept elevating some and tearing down others. I always used TP to get me around but understand what you mean. Maybe if it went from "no run, no fly" to "slow run, slow fly", that would make sense after all, a pile of rocks, no matter how magical, is still a pile of rocks and is not going to be winning any races. It would fit the overall theme of stone also.

[Leogunner]

What if they did something really unique and make Granite Armor more situational?

 

Rather than making the power more mild and set-and-forget, we could make it something to game, maintain and relegate as you use your armorSET.  For example:

 

While you have Granite on, it will pulse these "effects" on you that stack up and these effects are what gets you your -run, -rech and -damage.  While in Granite, they merely debuff you but when you turn off Granite, they give you a strong +rech bonus and endurance discount, with Brimstone, you get a substantial +damage, Rooted increases run speed and resistance/protection to -rech, slow, -fly, -jump, Crystal armor adds a PBAoE team +def buff...the caveat is the effect Granite casts on the user is temporary and only accumulates while in combat but could compound to up to several minutes of this effect when you turn it off.  Think of it like training with weights on and feeling unburdened after taking them off.

 

Of course, you wouldn't get the "unkillable"ness of Granite but you could choose to sit in Granite and be unkillable or use the power like it was supposed to be used and have it toggled on WHEN YOU WANT TO NOT DIE rather than all the time.

[quixoteprog]

3 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

What if they did something really unique and make Granite Armor more situational?

 

Rather than making the power more mild and set-and-forget, we could make it something to game, maintain and relegate as you use your armorSET.  For example:

 

While you have Granite on, it will pulse these "effects" on you that stack up and these effects are what gets you your -run, -rech and -damage.  While in Granite, they merely debuff you but when you turn off Granite, they give you a strong +rech bonus and endurance discount, with Brimstone, you get a substantial +damage, Rooted increases run speed and resistance/protection to -rech, slow, -fly, -jump, Crystal armor adds a PBAoE team +def buff...the caveat is the effect Granite casts on the user is temporary and only accumulates while in combat but could compound to up to several minutes of this effect when you turn it off.  Think of it like training with weights on and feeling unburdened after taking them off.

 

Of course, you wouldn't get the "unkillable"ness of Granite but you could choose to sit in Granite and be unkillable or use the power like it was supposed to be used and have it toggled on WHEN YOU WANT TO NOT DIE rather than all the time.

I like this idea, but maybe more along the line of the Brute "rage bar". So that when you first turn it on you get a normal +resist but as you stand put you can "draw on the power of the earth" and your bar fills up giving you +resist, +damage (instead of -damage, which is stupid anyway), knockback protection but also -fly, -run, and maybe even -recharge. The effects increase in purportion to the bar, like the Brute damage, until you are effectively immobile but almost invulnerable as well.

[Megajoule]

You left out the most important part, IMO:

Let us actually see our character, not completely replace them with a generic DE model, because the devs went for the cheap/fast solution back in 2004.

 

And yes, those other things too.

[SeraphimKensai]

Mega, 

I could see having a few visual styles for granite like the other powers, crystal has a slight translucency to it which I personally like, but I can understand people likely wanting a minimum fx option as well to see costumes.

[Brutal Justice]

3 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

 

1. Let Stone Armor Tankers in Rooted or Granite jump or fly. The limitation to do so is kind of silly considering we are all superheroes, what's to say a Rock Golem can't fly? Maybe a magic spell was placed on them that let's them , or they have some really advanced rocket boots? With the new addition of Force of Will, I think Mighty Leap would be a great fit for a chink of sidewalk landing on a mob of 5th Collumn flattening Nazi's left and right.

2. Let's ease up the -damage (which is -30%, I mean why would getting punched by something weighing 2 tons cause less damage? The weight alone should crush its puny target).

3. Let's ease up the -recharge (which is -65%, hasten is a +70%, so you get slightly better than baseline recharge with hasten running, perma hasten is pretty much impossible in Granite as well).

 

Perhaps we have a -50% speed debuff on Granite/Rooted (perhaps 25% per power) paired with a -30% recharge reduction, which is still a significant overall debuff to a player, albeit less severe than the current debuffs.

 

I like all of these.  It removes some of the penalties that are unnecessary these days but doesn’t overdue it.  I used to be against removing the movement penalties because it adds something unique and I didn’t think they were as crippling as the others.

 

Then I made a stone armor tank and took spring attack for mobility and comic relief.  I can’t get over this tiny curb but I can jump through the air and land on a spawn.  Theme or not, with access to powers like spring attack, it’s wildly inconsistent.

 

I have never seen a debuff that reduces jump height as opposed to just preventing jump.  I would speculate it works a little like kb in how anything under 1 is kd, anything over is kb.  If this is the case then just let them jump.  If it already exists to debuff jump height then that’s perfect.  If it doesn’t, no need to waste dev resources on a new mechanic.  

[Galaxy Brain]

3 hours ago, quixoteprog said:

 

Although, a pillow tank would kind of rock, if you pardon the pun.

 

 

Honestly, given the disadvantages you would think Granite gives ++Damage and not -Damage.

[Haijinx]

The no jump thing is detrimental to play it should be removed.  

 

No jump powers at the same time as granite is okay though.  No fly, no superspeed. 

 

The rech, spd AND dmg penalties are too harsh.  Pick one to keep, the rest should go. 

 

 

[Haijinx]

1 hour ago, Megajoule said:

You left out the most important part, IMO:

Let us actually see our character, not completely replace them with a generic DE model, because the devs went for the cheap/fast solution back in 2004.

 

And yes, those other things too.

The stone armors all look dumb.  Granite is an improvement.

[Megajoule]

1 hour ago, Haijinx said:

The stone armors all look dumb.  Granite is an improvement.

Hard disagree.

[Lost Ninja]

4 hours ago, Haijinx said:

The stone armors all look dumb.  Granite is an improvement.

 

3 hours ago, Megajoule said:

Hard disagree.

The stone armours do look dumb, but granite is no better. If I spend hours making a really good looking character I don't want it covered in  shit that at best is slightly recolurable. (This goes, for Ice and Bio too.)

[Haijinx]

3 hours ago, Lost Ninja said:

 

The stone armours do look dumb, but granite is no better. If I spend hours making a really good looking character I don't want it covered in  shit that at best is slightly recolurable. (This goes, for Ice and Bio too.)

Well granite doesn't look dumb.  It just doesn't look very original.

 

Min fx would be fine with me.

[Vanden]

I don't think minimal FX for Granite is possible with the current setup. The shapeshift into the stone form is part of the power's effects, and power customizations can't alter the effects of powers.

[Leogunner]

4 hours ago, Lost Ninja said:

If I spend hours making a really good looking character I don't want it covered in  shit that at best is slightly recolurable. (This goes, for Ice and Bio too.)

I'm sorry if you're not very creative, then.

 

If you're worried about admiring your costume while fighting, then practically any team effects are going to obscure it.  The armor is supposed to be a manifestation of your power, not your costume and the visible representation of ones power can be just as important as their bio or name.  In fact, those things are often inextricably linked.

[Megajoule]

1 hour ago, Leogunner said:

I'm sorry if you're not very creative, then.

... what?

No, we are creative, and we want to see the product(s) of that creativity.  Not a generic DE model, same as every other Granite tanker (and several DE critters).

 

1 hour ago, Leogunner said:

If you're worried about admiring your costume while fighting, then practically any team effects are going to obscure it.  The armor is supposed to be a manifestation of your power, not your costume and the visible representation of ones power can be just as important as their bio or name.  In fact, those things are often inextricably linked.

So let's just toss out the much-lauded character creator and represent all characters with simple geometric primitives, like cubes or spheres.  They're just going to get lost in all the power FX anyway, right?

 

[Lost Ninja]

2 hours ago, Leogunner said:

I'm sorry if you're not very creative, then.

 

If you're worried about admiring your costume while fighting, then practically any team effects are going to obscure it.  The armor is supposed to be a manifestation of your power, not your costume and the visible representation of ones power can be just as important as their bio or name.  In fact, those things are often inextricably linked.

But that should be my choice not based on dated power effects. Even if you must become and 8' tall block of rock as part of the power. The fact that that block of rock has to be single visual look is undoubtedly a turn off for me. The rest of stone isn't a great deal better, I mean one of them literally looks someone (big) took a dump on you and you haven't had time to hose it off. If I wanted to create a sewer dweller I'm sure I could but it's not my thing.

[Haijinx]

5 hours ago, Vanden said:

I don't think minimal FX for Granite is possible with the current setup. The shapeshift into the stone form is part of the power's effects, and power customizations can't alter the effects of powers.

Maybe do the other ones?

[DSorrow]

Stone Armor to me is completely unplayable mostly because:

• it restricts movement, something which I absolutely hate
• most of the powers look like crap, quite literally
• it relies way too much on its T9 which comes with huge -DMG and -Rech so not only do I get to use my coolest powers less often, they are also less powerful
• no customization for GA
• GA makes 4 powers in the set mostly obsolete

I can't really come up with anything I actually like about the set. At minimum I'd like better power customization, reduction in the self imposed debuffs (especially the -Jump) and some synergy with GA and the other toggles, but I feel like the Stone Armor needs pretty much a complete overhaul to feel good.

[Leogunner]

7 hours ago, Megajoule said:

... what?

No, we are creative, and we want to see the product(s) of that creativity.  Not a generic DE model, same as every other Granite tanker (and several DE critters).

 

Then turn off Granite.

 

7 hours ago, Megajoule said:

So let's just toss out the much-lauded character creator and represent all characters with simple geometric primitives, like cubes or spheres.  They're just going to get lost in all the power FX anyway, right?

 

I think you forgot how analogies work lol

 

So is that what you're going to do because you can't see your super cereal pro OC at all times?  Because I accept varying degrees of powers obscuring things and in some cases USE these FX AS part of the visual representation of the character (i.e. the costume).

 

6 hours ago, Lost Ninja said:

But that should be my choice not based on dated power effects. Even if you must become and 8' tall block of rock as part of the power. The fact that that block of rock has to be single visual look is undoubtedly a turn off for me. The rest of stone isn't a great deal better, I mean one of them literally looks someone (big) took a dump on you and you haven't had time to hose it off. If I wanted to create a sewer dweller I'm sure I could but it's not my thing.

I'm not arguing against adding more customizable visual effects but perhaps the concept of your character isn't someone who pulls and holds clumps of dirt and rock to their bodies as a means of protection then.  You can make a costume that looks like armor made of rock and then make them Invulnerability or something if Sewer Poo Man is the only concept you can come up with for Stone Armor.  Although it's not a bad concept.  You got mudpots that looks like bubbling sewage and the flies aura.

[Hyperstrike]

3 hours ago, Leogunner said:

You can make a costume that looks like armor made of rock and then make them Invulnerability or something

Case in point: Fire/Fire/Pyre Tank.

[Jeneki]

On 10/1/2019 at 12:06 PM, quixoteprog said:

pillow tank.

If it helps us get Pillow-fight Melee I'm all for it.

[kenlon]

Stone Armor is one of those I1 sets that needs to be rethought from the ground up - unlike some other sets that are that old, the introduction of IOs did not help it much, and it's just terribly designed overall.