How to fix Sentinels

[DarknessEternal]

On 11/23/2019 at 1:09 PM, Haijinx said:

Right now though, do they even match Brutes?

 

Not even close.  Even after the Brute nerf on PTR, still not even close.

 

Sentinels do less damage than Corrupters, probably even less than Tanks (on live, certainly on ptr).

[Rathulfr]

On 11/23/2019 at 1:05 PM, Haijinx said:

Energize is the same as Stalker, perhaps?

 

Blaster Energize is beyond awesome though.  Its quite possibly the best single power in COH.

Blaster Energize is broken stupid good.  It provides +100% regen and endurance reduction for 1 minute on a clicky that recharges in 2 minutes, which means it can be perma'ed with 3 SOs, bringing it down to 45 seconds.  That just makes no freaking sense.  Not that I'm complaining: my Energy² Blaster enjoys it quite a bit, thanks.

Edited November 25, 2019 by Rathulfr

[Haijinx]

31 minutes ago, Rathulfr said:

Blaster Energize is broken stupid good.  It provides +100% regen and endurance reduction for 1 minute on a clicky that recharges in 2 minutes, which means it can be perma'ed with 3 SOs, bringing it down to 45 seconds.  That just makes no freaking sense.  Not that I'm complaining: my Energy² Blaster enjoys it quite a bit, thanks.

Plus the heal which is boosted by an in set power, always good.  

 

 

[carnalchaos]

Crazy middle of the night idea but I was thinking about how the sentinel bar reminds me of the dominator bar and the idea popped into my head what if we got an adaptive version of Domination?  Only instead of control power it boosts three different team friendly options in an aura around the sentinel.  So we would have three greyed buttons that would light up when Sentinelization (eh its late) is maximized.  They would be something like the following:

 

1.  Damage Buff-say 10% damage for 20 seconds in 25ft aura (Teammates and friendlies)

2.  Damage Debuff-say minus 7.5%damage for 20 seconds in 25ft aura (Enemy mobs)

3. Heal/End in an aura-say 20%heal & 20%end in 25ft aura (Teammates and friendlies)

 

This would seemingly use the existing mechanic to give us a team friendly power as well as giving the player options.  Start of battle and the bar is full power up the team, mid battle debuff mobs and end of battle heal/restore team to speed them along.  Also nothing ridiculously overpowered number wise that we are stepping on the support toons toes.  I really like this idea since it kind of caters to our in between range/playstyle.  We are either between the squishes an melee or up close with the melee.

 

Another option I find less appealing but would be to brute it out.  Make the different buffs only for the self so when sentinelization (its growing on me) is up our damage would leap forward but fall back when not active.  I think this would work and be fun but I personally prefer the team support option.

 

There would have to be some precautions to prevent it from becoming abused through a high recharge perma build.  I think the easiest would be to make the buffs lower so they could be tweaked upwards and downwards as playtesting indicates.

 

Perhaps most importantly this seems like a fun solution that wouldn't be a total rework since the first half of the mechanic is already in place and might be easier to implement by the devs.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 2, 2019 by carnalchaos
Clarification

[Tubalcain]

I think it would be a neat mechanic if Sentinels had a Leadership type of aura that activated and it worked like the Peace Bringer's where it changed based on team make up. The support ATs you have the more of a damage/accuracy/recharge buff it gives. The more damage dealers you have the more def/res/regeneration it gives. Sort of like an equalizer for lop sided teams. As suggested, have it be like the Dominator bar that fills up and click activates.

Edited December 3, 2019 by Tubalcain

[Bossk_Hogg]

How much of a damage boost is offensive opportunity? Would it really be too OP to just have it and defensive be toggles always available? Maybe have the 20% resistance debuff apply to whatever the last target you hit with a single target attack?

Edited December 3, 2019 by Bossk_Hogg

[Zepp]

I really don't like the idea of making the inherent a clicky. That being said, two lackluster buffs tied to powers that tend to underperform is not the best way to go either. As such, the best way to go would likely be to link the two buffs together and let the buff work for either the T1 or the T2.

There has also been some interesting ideas related to making Sentinels more like Sentinels. These increase +Perception, Stalker-spotting, and having perceived Mobs red triangles show up on the map.

I'm not too big of a fan of leadership-auras as they will likely come at a cost of other options that will help the solo game.

Some discussion has been had about offensive and defensive levels being adjusted, which I also think may be reasonable depending on other adjustments.

[Wavicle]

I would like Sentinels to have a sort of Anti-Scourge.  That is to say I would like Sentinels to get Critical damage on mobs whose health is at 80% or Higher.  Crits to Lead off the fight.

[ViciousCabaret]

51 minutes ago, sacredlunatic said:

I would like Sentinels to have a sort of Anti-Scourge.  That is to say I would like Sentinels to get Critical damage on mobs whose health is at 80% or Higher.  Crits to Lead off the fight.

I'm not saying it's a bad idea, but it would be an odd ability to put on the ranged AT that doesn't get any snipes at all.

[Wavicle]

That is a fair point.

[Bossk_Hogg]

19 hours ago, Zepp said:

There has also been some interesting ideas related to making Sentinels more like Sentinels. These increase +Perception, Stalker-spotting, and having perceived Mobs red triangles show up on the map.
 

They may as well have an inherent that craps out tailor coupons then. None of this is really useful. Stalker spotting would really screw the AT in PVP, +perception is only valuable against night widows and the game already shows you where the last few mobs are. Plus I'm against an inherent that makes sitting at the door to be tp'd to the final mob even easier...

 

Making defensive/offensive simply be a toggle is minimal fiddlyness, and probably not OP. Have the reticule on whatever the sentinel hits with a single target. It's a 20% resistance debuff, which is proc level. I'd also love a small taunt on single target attacks while in defensive stance to keep shit from running all over and let you tank for small teams. 

[nihilii]

I'm down with toggle defensive/offensive, gauntlet in defensive mode, combining defensive and offensive, and anti-scourge. All really cool ideas!

[Zepp]

Stancing and clickies work well for specific power sets, but as an inherent they are annoying at the best of times. The stancing nature of offensive/defensive opportunity is part of the problem.

[metacore]

Imagine a Dual Pistol/Bio Sentinel if it had "Stances".
Stance Set 1 = DP Swap Ammo (Standard, Cryo, Incendiary or Chemical) + 
Stance Set 2 = Bio Adaptation (Offensive, Defensive or Efficient) + 
Stance Set 3 = Sentinel Inherent (Offensive or Defensive)
 

[Zepp]

1 hour ago, metacore said:

Imagine a Dual Pistol/Bio Sentinel if it had "Stances".
Stance Set 1 = DP Swap Ammo (Standard, Cryo, Incendiary or Chemical) + 
Stance Set 2 = Bio Adaptation (Offensive, Defensive or Efficient) + 
Stance Set 3 = Sentinel Inherent (Offensive or Defensive)

What, that is only 24-32 possible stances. Incendiary, offensive, offensive couldn't go off the rails ever...

[Replacement]

In a nebulous "hot dogs aren't sandwiches" sort of way, I remain of the opinion that AT level "inherent" stances never would have flown at Paragon studios; they're just generally outside of this game's design paradigm. I know a lot of folks are fans, so sorry to be so negative. But to me, it indicates an unwillingness to find a more interactive way to achieve the same results.

 

Actually, I would be ok with it on an EAT.

Edited December 6, 2019 by Replacement

[Menelruin]

9 hours ago, Zepp said:

What, that is only 24-32 possible stances. Incendiary, offensive, offensive couldn't go off the rails ever...

My Mega Man inspired DP/Bio sentinel is fascinated by this idea....

[Bossk_Hogg]

11 hours ago, Zepp said:

Stancing and clickies work well for specific power sets, but as an inherent they are annoying at the best of times. The stancing nature of offensive/defensive opportunity is part of the problem.

I'd argue the click nature, tied to an attack, with a bar you have to fill up is the nature of the problem heh. It disrupts attack chains, can miss, forces you to hold off attacks until you reach a valid target etc.

 

Under my proposal, most of the time you'd switch on Offensive and be done with it, swapping to defensive to deal w tough spawns or bad situations. Not really different from deciding when to pop Frozen Bastion, Meltdown, etc.  

 

The sentinel is by far the most button mashing class, a scrapper that doesn't even have to worry about chasing mobs down. A small amount of interactivity in which stance to use shouldn't make anyone's head explode.

Edited December 6, 2019 by Bossk_Hogg

[Bossk_Hogg]

9 hours ago, Zepp said:

What, that is only 24-32 possible stances. Incendiary, offensive, offensive couldn't go off the rails ever...

I mean, it doesnt now, as pistol/bio sentinels who pop offensive arent remotely OP, so /shrug.

[Omega-202]

1 hour ago, Replacement said:

In a nebulous "hot dogs aren't sandwiches" sort of way, I remain of the opinion that AT level "inherent" stances never would have flown at Paragon studios; they're just generally outside of this game's design paradigm. I know a lot of folks are fans, so sorry to be so negative. But to me, it indicates an unwillingness to find a more interactive way to achieve the same results.

 

Actually, I would be ok with it on an EAT.

I 100% disagree.  "Stances" are already part of the game's design (as mentioned, see Bio armor, Pistols, Staff melee) and in practice, they are nothing more than mutually exclusive toggles, jist like the original design of the defensive power sets when the game was first released.  

 

Heck, how is "bodyguard" on a MM not basically a "stance" inherent by a different name?  I feel like you're projecting your personal preference on this one and disguising it by pretending that Paragon Studios would agree with you. 

 

I am all for a "stance" like system for Sentinels, but I really think that they would help the AT the most if they were team auras, in addition to personal buffs.   In my experience, Sentinels are currently fine to decent solo and they really struggle in teams where they just don't contribute enough.  And it's not like having the stances be auras wouldn't also help the Sentinel while solo, as they'd still get the benefit.

 

Edit: Also the idea of "finding a more interactive way" being a requirement for an inherent is silly.  Need I remind you what the inherent is for Scrappers?  Soldiers and Widows?  Kheldians?  Defenders?  Basically half of the inherents in the game are literally just a small passive bonus that you have no control over.

Edited December 6, 2019 by Omega-202

[Replacement]

3 hours ago, Omega-202 said:

I 100% disagree.  "Stances" are already part of the game's design (as mentioned, see Bio armor, Pistols, Staff melee) and in practice, they are nothing more than mutually exclusive toggles, jist like the original design of the defensive power sets when the game was first released.  

 

Heck, how is "bodyguard" on a MM not basically a "stance" inherent by a different name?  I feel like you're projecting your personal preference on this one and disguising it by pretending that Paragon Studios would agree with you. 

 

I am all for a "stance" like system for Sentinels, but I really think that they would help the AT the most if they were team auras, in addition to personal buffs.   In my experience, Sentinels are currently fine to decent solo and they really struggle in teams where they just don't contribute enough.  And it's not like having the stances be auras wouldn't also help the Sentinel while solo, as they'd still get the benefit.

 

Edit: Also the idea of "finding a more interactive way" being a requirement for an inherent is silly.  Need I remind you what the inherent is for Scrappers?  Soldiers and Widows?  Kheldians?  Defenders?  Basically half of the inherents in the game are literally just a small passive bonus that you have no control over.

 

First, please note my use of terms like "my opinion."  This is how I feel and I understand it is not proven fact.  I do apologize for making it sound like I'm projecting my own biases.  I just cannot find another way to express what feels "on brand."

 

Second, I mean specifically Clicked Toggles That Enact A Stance In No Uncertain Terms.  For an example of what I don't mean, look to current Sentinel:  I agree it's flawed and being forced to take T1 and T2 if you want both effects suck, but it's not just two extra powers added to your character.  I actually prefer the current approach over "here's two stances!  Because!"

 

As for Bio Armor, Staff, etc: what @Zepp said.  I specifically called out "At an AT Level" for that reason.  It makes sense in the context of particular Powers.  The only ATs it makes sense for are those that are already rather theme-locked (EATs).

 

Finally, about Scrappers.  It would be fair to take exception with my use of "interactive" but I couldn't think of a better word for it: Critical Hit rewards Scrappers for Scrapping.  Defiance rewards Blasters for Blasting.  These more 'boring' inherents enforce a gameplay loop.  This is also why you'll find me in Defender threads blasting on Defiance.  The core loop it enforces shows they had an expectation of Holy Trinity Healer, despite that being bewilderingly inaccurate for a CoH Defender.

 

Cheers!

 

Edited December 6, 2019 by Replacement

[Frosticus]

I've now played a few sentinels into the 40's. At which point I lose interest.

 

They just aren't that fun (for me). You sit back and blast stuff while being nearly invulnerable. The risk to reward is off on them imo.

the low target caps mean you often don't pull much aggro in a team. Nowhere near enough to overwhelm your defenses. 

My sents are usually the last one standing during team wipes, but I feel I have little ability to prevent the team wipe either.

 

[Omega-202]

46 minutes ago, Replacement said:

 

First, please note my use of terms like "my opinion."  This is how I feel and I understand it is not proven fact.  I do apologize for making it sound like I'm projecting my own biases.  I just cannot find another way to express what feels "on brand."

 

Second, I mean specifically Clicked Toggles That Enact A Stance In No Uncertain Terms.  For an example of what I don't mean, look to current Sentinel:  I agree it's flawed and being forced to take T1 and T2 if you want both effects suck, but it's not just two extra powers added to your character.  I actually prefer the current approach over "here's two stances!  Because!"

 

As for Bio Armor, Staff, etc: what @Zepp said.  I specifically called out "At an AT Level" for that reason.  It makes sense in the context of particular Powers.  The only ATs it makes sense for are those that are already rather theme-locked (EATs).

 

Finally, about Scrappers.  It would be fair to take exception with my use of "interactive" but I couldn't think of a better word for it: Critical Hit rewards Scrappers for Scrapping.  Defiance rewards Blasters for Blasting.  These more 'boring' inherents enforce a gameplay loop.  This is also why you'll find me in Defender threads blasting on Defiance.  The core loop it enforces shows they had an expectation of Holy Trinity Healer, despite that being bewilderingly inaccurate for a CoH Defender.

 

Cheers!

 

Then the question becomes: what is the Sentinel "gameplay loop" because by all accounts they don't have one.  The Oppostunity mechanic is janky and doesn't properly feed into a good gameplay loop because it forces you to make non-optimal choices in order to make use of it. 

 

In my view, they have no role on a team, even less so than Scrappers. And we all know how historically Scappers have been ragged on for lacking a niche for long stretches of the games life.  Sentinels don't take damage that well, and are the squishiest non-squishy.  They deal better damage than support classes, but less than the other offense classes.  They offer very little to no team support.  And even all of those things are not even hard and fast because there are plenty of tanky squishy builds that beat Sentinels and plenty of support classes that pump out better damage.

 

So back to your point, and why I see nothing wrong with stance auras: currently Sentinels have no gameplay loop and no team role so we need to give them one.  One option is to make them the "customizable" Jack of All Trades class by letting them fill in a team's lacking factor with a team support stance aura.  

 

Yes, this makes them similar to EATs but EATs already do everything current Sentinels do, but better, and they are hampered by lack of customization.  So overlap between the EATs and Sentinels isn't really an issue because you can't have a Fire Widow or an Ice Warshade.  

 

To your "theme lock" issue with Sentinels: all ATs are a bit theme locked by their inherent.  You don't have calm Brutes or non-sneaky Stalkers. I see no reason stance-auras is not perfectly in theme for a Sentinel ("a soldier or guard who is assigned to protect a person place or thing").  Seems like a team support (especially defensive ones) stance-aura would be perfectly in theme.

Edited December 6, 2019 by Omega-202
typo

[Replacement]

@Omega-202 You have convinced me that if any (non-Epic) AT should get a stance inherent, it would be Sentinels.  Precisely because it helps with a "Jack of All Trades," if that's the direction HC ends up taking them.

 

I still don't like them, though. 🙂

 

 

Edited December 6, 2019 by Replacement

[drbuzzard]

Of course my initial suggesting of simply being the king of resistance debuffing requires a lot less trouble by both the devs and the players, offers a different playstyle feel, and benefits a whole team. But I suppose nobody else liked a simple solution.