QOL: Remove the Enemy Auto-hit after so many misses.

[Captain Yesterday]

Quality of Life Attempt: Remove the enemies Auto hit after so many misses.

 

I understand the original devs wanted to make things "racy" by first putting math in the game to create a to hit structure, and then make things occasionally exiting by ignoring said math every X amount of hits.

 

The result is the game can be quite trivial for Super reflexes, Ninjitsu, Ice, and Shield characters.

 

Unlike other Powersets, their WHOLE powerset angle consists of not getting hit. So when they hit that 45% defense cap, they should enjoy the fruits of their rewards, but instead the game robs them by making them get auto-hit after a certain amount of misses.

 

The effect: this spells disaster at higher levels for anyone who has worked hard on their toon. Only to see them get killed not because of poor build, poor play, or because of lucky dice rolls (which they would need to even hit SR, but because somebody with a "nature always finds a way" unfair attitude was the GM and decided to build in a back door to their powerset. What happened to the math? The math that they set up in the first place?

 

I kinda see that as unfair.

 

Many a time I have been in a lvl 50 pi team and had some SR tank jump in and do great for 12-20 seconds and then just EAT FLOOR. Every time.

 

Yes, you can build for some damage mitigation, I have an ice tank with 45% def and can get my all my resists to 90% and energy to 71%. That's for 90 seconds.

 

But it doesn't fix the chink in the armor that totally breaks the concept of trying to be agile, ninja fast, or unhittable.

 

Point: with the number of mobs a player faces on +4/+8 content, sol, and farms. 5-7% change to get hit from 17-32 mobs is fair enough to get nicked and good enough to feel super, especially without the guaranteed to be coming, you'll get hit by Gm stick of "don't be so good, and don't have so much fun" soon.

 

This game is for fun and not profit, whats to lose by making this change? who would die? What great plan or balance would be torn asunder?

 

Counterpoint to ponder: What if the devs decide that 90% resist is too high and after every X amount of times damage is resisted, one attack always hits for 100% damage with zero resistance. Then everybody would just start eating floor at random times because the rotation of 90% resist would pile up and there would exist a 3-5 second wind that exists while the character is taking damage that would just floor the character.

 

Counterpoint 2: this is not a pay server? who is it hurting to feel more super? at least if you dispute it, then change the auto miss feature and remove it from powersets that depend on Defense entirely as their main tool. Super reflexes, Ninjitsu, and Ice. 22% resistance from tough is not a thing to be trying to live on as a tank when up against baddies since your power has a Original developer placed hole in it.

 

is the formula of Defense CAp + Damage mitigation the ONLY things that is allowed to survive?

 

What about Super Refexes/Defense based Mitigation without the auto-hit?

What about Regen with little to no defense or mitigation that just lives through it all?

 

Without those functional differences, we are all forces to play the same game at high levels and in the end, no matter how we build.

 

I have commented on the internet and the coh forums. Let the wailing begin.

 

/jrangers unite.

 

PRO TIP: this is for the developers to see, to see if my idea has merit.

Edited December 7, 2019 by Captain Yesterday

[Haijinx]

/jranger

[Vanden]

The streakbreaker is harmless for defense-based builds. If the final tohit chance is under 20%, an easy value to reach, you need to miss 100 times in a row before it kicks in, and the lowest accuracy anyone can possibly have is a 1 in 20 chance of hitting. And the count is separate for every NPC; a NPC missing an attack has no affect on the streakbreaker build up for any other NPC.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

i agree streakbreaker should only be available for pvp, Vanden see counterpoint 1

[Steampunkette]

In response to "Counterpoint 1":

 

45% defense with 100% debuff/control throughput is the same thing as 90% resistance with significant debuff/control resistance.

 

100 attacks aim at Defense Dude and each deal 100 damage. If there is, through some random happenstance, a complete spread (each subsequent attack rolls exactly 1 higher than the previous roll and the first roll is a 1): about 95% will miss and 5 will hit. Without resistances, Defense Dude takes 500 damage

 

100 attacks aim at Resistanceman and each deal 100 damage. If If there is, through some random happenstance, a complete spread: about half will miss (Because anything under 50% is a miss when you have no defense) and about 50 will hit. With resistances, Resistanceman takes 500 damage.

 

An "Autohit that ignores resistances" wouldn't be equivalent to the two because the baseline function of the protection in question is a radically different approach to reach the same overall outcome.

 

 

To address the broader point:

 

Streakbreaker exists in the game for NPCs because it's a function of the ToHit System. It cannot exist "Only for Players". The variable on how many misses triggers a Streakbreaker can be modified on an entity by entity basis with stuff like character level added on to that.

 

But to remove it from NPCs means removing it from the entire game. A massive effort which makes content harder in a broad swath of the game to make it infinitesimally easier for your very specific, and very strange, niche situation

 

 

In more true to Game Experience terms:

 

Streakbreaker on NPC attacks requires the NPC to miss you 100 times. That -specific- NPC has to miss 100 times. In a Row. No Hits. 100 times in a row without hitting you. If that NPC gets to swing at you 100 times without landing a hit, you're AFK and should be more worried about Autologging than Streakbreaker.

Edited December 7, 2019 by Steampunkette

[Saiyajinzoningen]

i cant argue with your numbers cause numbers dont lie but; your 1`st example is rendered inconsistent due to streakbreaker, while your second is always consistent. Also im not sure about the npc must attack you 100 times before streakbreaker kicks in. I dont afk anything and i see it kick in all the time for my foes and im certainly not letting them attack me 100 times. maybe streakbreaker needs to be tested?

[Troo]

Streak breakers exist. If a 'high level' character is only building defense and no resistance, well.. you get what you get. It's part of using those power sets.

The game should have some challenges, shouldn't it?

In my opinion, it is awesome the variety of strengths and weaknesses in the game.

 

Edited December 7, 2019 by Troo

[Troo]

Is this really the math?

1 hour ago, Steampunkette said:

45% defense with 100% debuff/control throughput is the same thing as 90% resistance with significant debuff/control resistance.

Is it possible this is an over simplification?

[Piyerus]

The 100 hit requirement for the streakbreaker to kick in is from the devs on the original forums when streakbreaker was implemented, which is included on the paragonwiki page for the system. If an entity has anywhere between a 0% to 20% chance for their attack to hit (after going through the full formula on whether an attack hits or not) it takes 100 attacks for the streakbreaker to activate. The table the old devs provided is this: (read is at between 0 and 1. So .9 means 90%, etc)

 

>.9 : 1
.8-.9 : 2
.6-.8 : 3
.4-.6 : 4
.3-.4 : 6
.2-.3 : 8
0 -.2 : 100

 

The issue with testing the 100 hit streakbreaker is that, at absolute worst, the enemy will still have a 5% chance to land their attack. You can never get enough defense to make that go to 0%, it's just how the formula for accuracy works. 5% is the lowest amount. This means that on average, even with got-tier defenses, the enemy will still be hitting you 1 out of every 20 attacks. They would have to be VERY unlucky to even get close to that 100 hit streak.

[Captain Powerhouse]

As it has been stated, if you have 45 def and the foe has standard tohit, they will have a 10% hit chance and will take 100 attacks from that single foe to kick in the streakbreaker.

 

That said: 45 def still means you get hit by 10% of the attacks even without tohit buffs. That is not streakbreaker, that is just the defense soft-cap. Just like you cant resist 100% of the attacks, you cant ever avoid 100% of the attacks.

 

[aethereal]

I thought even-level minions had a 5% chance to hit you at softcap, not 10%.

[Soulstinger]

Defense build wants reactionary spike heals

Resistance builds want gradual consistent heals

 

Not supposed to be able to just facetank end-level content without a second thought imho

[Steampunkette]

6 hours ago, Troo said:

Is this really the math?

Is it possible this is an over simplification?

It's shocking ain't it?

[FDR's Think Tank]

Maybe I am missing something here, but since mobs can use inspirations, can't they boost their own accuracy in order to hit that which they are normally too clumsy to hit?

 

Why would there be a separate system to give the result of a to-hit buff outside of existing powers, inspirations, and enhancements?

 

Oh, right... Streak-Killer. But does it work in reverse too? Do attacks that consistently hit build on a counter towards a guaranteed miss?

 

What am I missing here? This seems very curious... It's strange the mechanics people use to sidestep a robust pain wheel.

[Captain Powerhouse]

7 hours ago, aethereal said:

I thought even-level minions had a 5% chance to hit you at softcap, not 10%.

 

Technically true, but proportionally it’s 10%.
 

I mean: minions normally only hit half the time. Soft cap def take that to 5%. 5%/50% = 10% (compared to no defense.)

 

It’s 5% but when you want to compare it proportionally , it’s easier to say that nearly universally, 45 def makes you avoid 90% of the attacks that would otherwise landed.

[DrRocket]

I could not agree more with regards to defense based characters and the streak breaker...

 

Here you are in a normal TF, lets say Lady Gray. When you get to the Hero One portion, there may be dozens of Rickti going at you, so all of them are mostly missing, after all itis possible for them to roll a 5 or less (5% of the time), but after ten rounds, the great majority of them will "by design" strike you and then its lights out. The player is simply out of luck.

 

I play a Storm Defender, when it gets to survive the spammed use of Status effects, it all comes down to not being hit; because when they do hit, its over, and my character is essentially murdered.

 

So the streak breaker on the NPC side is a bad thing all together.

 

I do have a question, my MM had a 56% defense versus AOE and Ranged, yet when I was doing Lady Gray, every Rickti Mentalist nailed me every time, never missed a status effect attack, what gives?

At first, I thought, well he got lucky and rolled the 5%, I survived because of my pets, and then he Status Affect hold me a second time, nailed me, and a third time and then he died because my pets finally overwhelmed him. Now I can buy the 5% chance, but rolling 5% chances three in a row? Sure it is possible, but really? Then I moved into another room, and guess what Held by the very first try of the Mez boss, and again, and again. I went to powers, and checked my defense and it was almost at 60% for both range and area; be mindful I hover high to force attacks on me to be ranged or aoe.

 

I would appreciate if anyone can explain, what I am missing with the Rickti mentalist mechanics, are there status effect auto hit?

 

[Treacheres The Dastard]

17 minutes ago, DrRocket said:

I do have a question, my MM had a 56% defense versus AOE and Ranged, yet when I was doing Lady Gray, every Rickti Mentalist nailed me every time, never missed a status effect attack, what gives?

At first, I thought, well he got lucky and rolled the 5%, I survived because of my pets, and then he Status Affect hold me a second time, nailed me, and a third time and then he died because my pets finally overwhelmed him. Now I can buy the 5% chance, but rolling 5% chances three in a row? Sure it is possible, but really? Then I moved into another room, and guess what Held by the very first try of the Mez boss, and again, and again. I went to powers, and checked my defense and it was almost at 60% for both range and area; be mindful I hover high to force attacks on me to be ranged or aoe.

 

I would appreciate if anyone can explain, what I am missing with the Rickti mentalist mechanics, are there status effect auto hit?

 

Some attacks lack a positional tag. My Fortunata loves using Domination on Paragon Protectors in MoG, for example. I would expect it's something like that.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

umm maybe u got debuffed by rikti monkey death farts? just kidding. maybe...lol

[Steampunkette]

Yeah... again, the SAME ENEMY would need to Miss 100 times in a row to trigger Streakbreaker.

 

Not "A crowd misses you a total of 100 times". Each one, individually, must miss 100 times in a row in order for Streakbreaker to kick in for each of them.

 

The odds of Streakbreaker ever kicking in? Of someone swinging 100 times and missing every time? 0.59%

 

Don't believe me? Check a Probability Calculator or yourself.

 

https://www.omnicalculator.com/statistics/probability

 

This one is my -favorite-! 😄

 

P(A) is 5% (Chance to hit)

P(B) is 95% (Chance to miss)

 

Set it to "When Trying" 100 times (Default is 3 on this calculator)

 

Voila!

[DrRocket]

I thought streak breaker was after 9 consecutive misses, its bingo we got a hit!

 

It is done individually and not by group, so even with a group of 100, it would be 10 rounds before you are obliterated by design.

[Captain Powerhouse]

It's per entity. Any entity (code does not check if it's a player or critter or what) will check the streak breaker code independently based on it's own miss-history. 

 

10 critters, each has to miss 100 times before one hits. However, a minion is very likely to hit a def-capped target once every 20 hits in average. Nature of defense and randomness means this might happen all at once, all spread through, heck, might be the first wave of attacks. 

Defense was designed as a gamble/luck mechanic. Sometimes, you will lose that bet, and very quickly fall if defense is the only thing keeping you alive. This is the reason Super Reflexes was giving Scaling Resistances, and Ninjitsu has a self heal.

Edited December 9, 2019 by Captain Powerhouse

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

29 minutes ago, DrRocket said:

I thought streak breaker was after 9 consecutive misses, its bingo we got a hit!

 

It is done individually and not by group, so even with a group of 100, it would be 10 rounds before you are obliterated by design.

Not to be rude but you really seem to not understand the game mechanics. Let me put it this way. Im on an SR scrapper. Each foe has to live long enough to get its own x number of attacks off to trigger streak breaker. Since no foe will live long enough to get that many attacks off, its moot. Its that simple. Like with any 2ndary, its about not giving mobs the chance to wear through it.

 

Its also why teams with a number of front liners seem to do so much better, they constantly are trading aggro, making it very rare any given foe sticks to one target long enough to trigger streak breaker.

 

Oh and FYI when you say something super wrong like a regen tank, you basically pull the rug out from under your own feet when it comes to credibility.

[Dragon Crush]

58 minutes ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

Not to be rude but you really seem to not understand the game mechanics. Let me put it this way. Im on an SR scrapper. Each foe has to live long enough to get its own x number of attacks off to trigger streak breaker. Since no foe will live long enough to get that many attacks off, its moot. Its that simple. Like with any 2ndary, its about not giving mobs the chance to wear through it.

 

Its also why teams with a number of front liners seem to do so much better, they constantly are trading aggro, making it very rare any given foe sticks to one target long enough to trigger streak breaker.

 

Oh and FYI when you say something super wrong like a regen tank, you basically pull the rug out from under your own feet when it comes to credibility.

That was CaptainYesterday spouting easily provable falsehoods, not DrRocket. DrRocket seems legitimately confused to me.

 

To sum up what others have stated in the thread, the way attack mechanics work no matter what your defense or the opponents to-hit, there is a cap of 95% chance to hit and a floor of 5% to hit. No matter what your defense, even before streak-breaker you have at least a 1 in 20 chance of being hit, and streak breaker will only kick in if one individual somehow misses 100 times in a row (NOT once you have been missed 100 times total). Confounding matters somewhat is that some attacks auto-hit, and some lack positional tags, thus ignoring SR, ninja's or SD defense.

[HelenCarnate]

On 12/6/2019 at 10:44 PM, Haijinx said:

/jranger

This

[Troo]

2 hours ago, Dragon Crush said:

some attacks auto-hit, and some lack positional tags, thus ignoring SR, ninja's or SD defense.

This