Fade and Farsight Should Not Benefit from External Buffs

[nzer]

20 hours ago, Bartacus said:

Someone specifically said something about FF doing as well as time and that's, frankly, complete bullshit.

You should go back and reread, because that's not what was said.

Edited March 7, 2020 by nzer

[Doomrider]

Well, mission accomplished I guess. /shrug


Except Farsight remains intact somehow... 

Just tested on beta, powerboost no longer boosting Fade's defense values. Guess I respec out of primal now...

[Blackfeather]

1 hour ago, Doomrider said:

Well, mission accomplished I guess. /shrug


Except Farsight remains intact somehow... 

Just tested on beta, powerboost no longer boosting Fade's defense values. Guess I respec out of primal now...

I think the main thing is that Fade benefiting from Power Boost is explicitly a bug, while Farsight isn't (due to not providing enhanceable resistance).

[Dr Causality]

4 hours ago, Blackfeather said:

I think the main thing is that Fade benefiting from Power Boost is explicitly a bug, while Farsight isn't (due to not providing enhanceable resistance).

The main thing is, being a bug or not,  it feels bad to be singled out for a nerf of something that has worked this way going all the way back to issue 22.   Original Devs knew how the "bugged" work yet left in for the last 9 month of the Live through all of issue 22, issue 23 and as far as I know didn't work in a correction in the portion of issue 24 they were working on. 

 

Nerfs to things that have worked one way for that that long, should ideally be bundled together with general rebalancing so that certain sets or powers are not, or do not feel like they're being single out.    I'm not against out of balance powers being adjusted, but I'd like the pain of that nerfing to be shared with other broken out of balance Archetypes, Powers and even some underperforming power or sets getting a boost.  

 

Doing it this singled out way instead, doesn't feel good.

Edited March 9, 2020 by Dr Causality
spellings

[Blackfeather]

2 minutes ago, Dr Causality said:

The main thing is, being a bug or not,  it feels bad to be singled out for a nerf of something that has worked this way going all the way back to issue 22.   Original Devs knew how the "bugged" work yet left in for the last 9 month of the Live through all of issue 22, issue 23 and as far as I know didn't work in a correction in the portion of issue 24 they were working on. 

 

Nerfs to things that have worked one way for that that long, should ideally be bundled together with general rebalancing so that certain sets or powers are not, or do not feel like they're being single out.    I'm not against out of balance powers being adjusted, but I'd like the pain of that nerfing to be shared with other broken out of balance Archetypes, Powers and even some underperforming power or sets getting a boost.  

 

Doing it this singled out way instead, doesn't feel good.

That's fair - it'd probably be better to express that in the beta feedback forums though, so the devs can hear you out better about it.

[Wavicle]

1 hour ago, Dr Causality said:

The main thing is, being a bug or not,  it feels bad to be singled out for a nerf of something that has worked this way going all the way back to issue 22.   Original Devs knew how the "bugged" work yet left in for the last 9 month of the Live through all of issue 22, issue 23 and as far as I know didn't work in a correction in the portion of issue 24 they were working on. 

 

Nerfs to things that have worked one way for that that long, should ideally be bundled together with general rebalancing so that certain sets or powers are not, or do not feel like they're being single out.    I'm not against out of balance powers being adjusted, but I'd like the pain of that nerfing to be shared with other broken out of balance Archetypes, Powers and even some underperforming power or sets getting a boost.  

 

Doing it this singled out way instead, doesn't feel good.

This bug lets Damage buffs improve the resistance. There is no way that can stay in.

[Super Homer]

1 hour ago, Dr Causality said:

Nerfs to things that have worked one way for that that long, should ideally be bundled together with general rebalancing so that certain sets or powers are not, or do not feel like they're being single out

They also nerfed Poison on the same issue, though. No one would claim Poison deserved a nerf. I dont think Fade was singled out, but nor do I see anyone complaining Poison heals now are going to be weaker, maybe that's not convenient? 

[WindDemon21]

Poison needs help. They should really make alkaloid a taoe heal.

[Bopper]

*beating my head against the wall*

 

IT WAS NOT A NERF, IT WAS A BUG FIX

 

You can't say it was nerfed if you could pop enough damage insps and hit 37.5% resistance for the whole team.

[nzer]

1 hour ago, Wavicle said:

This bug lets Damage buffs improve the resistance. There is no way that can stay in.

The quoted patch notes seem to indicate the bug is that certain abilities with enhanceable resists were being affected by outside buffs when they shouldn't, not that damage buffs were improving resists. Is that a thing that was happening?

Edited March 9, 2020 by nzer

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, nzer said:

The quoted patch notes seem to indicate the bug is that certain abilities with enhanceable resists were being affected by outside buffs when they shouldn't, not that damage buffs were improving resists. Is that a thing that was happening?

Yes. With Fade.

[Bopper]

1 minute ago, nzer said:

The quoted patch notes seem to indicate the bug is that certain abilities with enhanceable resists were being affected by outside buffs when they shouldn't, not that damage buffs were improving resists. Is that a thing that was happening?

 

[nzer]

5 minutes ago, Bopper said:

 

Hmm. It seems to me like the real problem here is that damage resistance is implemented as Res(DamageType) rather than as its own attribute.

[Wavicle]

Just now, nzer said:

Hmm. It seems to me like the real problem here is that damage resistance is implemented as Res(DamageType) rather than as its own attribute.

True enough, but changing that is a Huge ask.

[nzer]

4 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

True enough, but changing that is a Huge ask.

Oh for sure, the cat's out of the bag now

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

I due to this thread threw together a ILL/Time, just to test out the power boost/far sight thing first hand. Cant say I see any big deal. I mean just having to take a pool with power boost often misses out on far more fun choices just for some def. and the power boost/ far sight combo while nice strong buff, considering the level it comes together at is around the time you start meeting exemped 50s with incarnate powers well, its just a non issue.

 

I mean if we could get power boost/farsight in the low levels that could be way too much. But my build only gets power boost at lvl 44. Incarnate toons exemping down keep their powers as low as 45. Then come the barriers and more so I just cant see any need for HC volunteer devs to waste a second on this.

[Captain Powerhouse]

Farsight and Fade have been considered problem powers for a while now, and brought up a lot internally. 

 

Fade just happened to be caught in an audit. We have been developing tools to enforce rule sets that might have been missed over the years, similar to how we have been addressing many PvP rule loopholes. That audit also revealed Elixir of Life and Sentinel’s Genomic Evolution, powers that should had been flagged to be ignoring buffs. Without this flag, +Resistance values get boosted by inspirations, damage buffs and Build Up, so it needs to be there.

 

Farsight is being looked at currently, no announcements on that front yet, maybe next week, but the power does not break rules, it just happens to be too good within the rules. It might need a focused change, but no, it won’t just get slapped with token resistances to the power so it can get an ignore flag.

Edited March 9, 2020 by Captain Powerhouse

[Dr Causality]

12 hours ago, Bopper said:

IT WAS NOT A NERF, IT WAS A BUG FIX

Fallacy here.   There's nothing mutually exclusive about a nerf and bug fix.  A  game change can easily be both.    After this change to the game there will be many Fade builds that have been at or over soft cap defense, and/or that have been able to soft cap pets, including Lore pets, since Issue 22 and for the entire time Homecoming has been public that will now no longer be at softcap.    That's a nerf.   It also be a bugfix, but doesn't change that it's a nerf. 

 

The reason it's important to point out that it's a nerf  is there should be ways to mitigate the underlying Dmg/Res bug issue without also nerfing Fade's Powerboosted Def.    Nerfing the Def portion is a choice.   We should discuss and think through a game change choice that is that substantial build breaking game play change for a set.

 

 

 

13 hours ago, Wavicle said:

This bug lets Damage buffs improve the resistance. There is no way that can stay in.

 

Agreed, but there's also no need to rush into a knee jerk fix that also nerfs and significantly changes game play for a set.   The bug has been live since issue 22, March 2012.   The bug has been live the entire time Homecoming servers have been public.   Has the game been ruined that whole time?       

 

We can take some time to think about how best to fix, mitigate or workaround this bug issue without also nerfing Fade's Def.    And if it is decided that instead of just a bug fix we actually do want to nerf Fade's Powerboosted Def, then that should come as larger game rebalancing project that impacts other sets equally.  

 

 

12 hours ago, Super Homer said:

They also nerfed Poison on the same issue, though. No one would claim Poison deserved a nerf. I dont think Fade was singled out, but nor do I see anyone complaining Poison heals now are going to be weaker, maybe that's not convenient? 

 

No one's complaining about /Poison because there's not much comparison to the game play impacts between  a /Darkness Affinity character that's built around using Powerboosted aoe Fade for Def and a /Poison chacter's Powerboosted single target heal.    Powerboosted Alkaloid was just 15s of a much larger single target heal, that couldn't be used on yourself.   While nice to have since it didn't directly impact your character itself, and wasn't even a permanent boost it isn't all that game changing.       Whereas using this bug fix for the Res/Dmg bug on Fade, also means any Fade builds designed around Powerboost now no longer have soft capped Def for the character itself and/or for the character's pets. This completely breaks builds that have worked the entire time Homecoming has been public and worked on live all the way back to Issue 22, March 2012.   You'd need to see powers like Farsight also being nerfed to get a similar level of game impact to builds.    

 

---

 

 

My point here is to draw attention to the fact that there are a bunch of incredibly bright people in this game, we can surely find a way to fix, mitigate or workaround the bug without also singling out a set for a significant build breaking nerf.     Nerfing is a choice, and if we make that choice then I think it should be part of a larger rebalancing project that effect the overall game, rather than a knee jerk bug fix.  

 

For instance here's an idea for how we might temporarily fix the Res/Dmg bug without nerfing Fade and ruining Def builds:

 

•  Could just the Res portion of Fade be moved to a psuedo pet summon, as a way to separate the Res and Def portions preventing Res from getting getting buffed by external sources like Powerboost, Buildup and Insp, but still allowing Fade's Def portion to be Powerboosted?

 

[Bopper]

7 minutes ago, Dr Causality said:

Fallacy here.   There's nothing mutually exclusive about a nerf and bug fix.  A  game change can easily be both.    After this change to the game there will be many Fade builds that have been at or over soft cap defense, and/or that have been able to soft cap pets, including Lore pets, since Issue 22 and for the entire time Homecoming has been public that will now no longer be at softcap.    That's a nerf.   It also be a bugfix, but doesn't change that it's a nerf.

It is only a nerf if accepting outside buffs for Fade was intended. Since all enhanceable resistance powers are supposed to be marked as "ignore outside buffs", the power was not working as intended. Even if it hasn't been working as intended for 8 years. It was a LOOOONG overdue bug fix that was one of the biggest exploitable bugs in the game (given its strong numbers for the entire team). 

 

I agree that the system having a weird mechanic between damage and resistance should be addressed, and I hope the i25 engine can allow for those changes. But until those changes happen, the only fix for that weird interaction is to flag the power. It might suck, but it's the way it works for now. 

 

In summation: a nerf is when a power is scaled down from its intended design once it is realized the intended design was wrong (too powerful). A bug fix is to correct a power when it is not working as intended. They are mutually exclusive as one is working as intended and the other is not.

[Dr Causality]

27 minutes ago, Bopper said:

It is only a nerf if accepting outside buffs for Fade was intended. Since all enhanceable resistance powers are supposed to be marked as "ignore outside buffs", the power was not working as intended. Even if it hasn't been working as intended for 8 years. It was a LOOOONG overdue bug fix that was one of the biggest exploitable bugs in the game (given its strong numbers for the entire team).

 

In summation: a nerf is when a power is scaled down from its intended design once it is realized the intended design was wrong (too powerful). A bug fix is to correct a power when it is not working as intended. They are mutually exclusive as one is working as intended and the other is not.

Nerfs can be unintentional.   Requiring us to know about intentions, is too narrow a definition of nerf to be useful.   You need a word like nerf to be able to describe situations where you don't know what the intentions were...  Nerf is best thought of as simply describing reduced power.   But let's leave the semantics aside, they're a distraction from the important point:

 

The important part is we should be able to fix, mitigate or work around the bug portion without also hurting the Def portion of Fade.    It's a choice to fix the LOOONG overdue bug in a way that also significantly reduces the amount of the Def  /Dark Affinity has.     We should discuss and think about that choice, rather than thinking of this as simple no brainer bug fix. 

 

 

Edited March 9, 2020 by Dr Causality
spellings

[Bopper]

Just now, Dr Causality said:

Nerfs can be unintentional.   Requiring us to know about intentions, is too narrow a definition of nerf to be useful.   You need a word like nerf to be able to describe situations where you don't know what the intentions were...  Nerf is best thought of as simply describing reduced power.   But let's leave the semantics aside, their a distration from that important point:

 

The important part is we should be able to fix, mitigate or work around the bug portion without also hurting the Def portion of Fade.    It's a choice to fix the LOOONG overdue bug in a way that also significantly reduces the amount of the Def  /Dark Affinity has.     We should discuss and think about that choice, rather than thinking of this as simple no brainer bug fix. 

I was just about to follow up with a reply to address this. After consideration I realized we may have different definitions for nerfs. In the broad sense, anything that lessens the effectiveness of a power can be called a nerf (whether bug fix or not). For me, a nerf is defined as specifically addressing a power with the intention of weakening its effects (typically for balance issues). I agree, its semantics.

 

Now let's see how they'll nerf Farsight, and I'll cry a little inside as I witness my main character lose its effectiveness.

[Trickshooter]

28 minutes ago, Dr Causality said:

The important part is we should be able to fix, mitigate or work around the bug portion without also hurting the Def portion of Fade.    It's a choice to fix the LOOONG overdue bug in a way that also significantly reduces the amount of the Def  /Dark Affinity has.     We should discuss and think about that choice, rather than thinking of this as simple no brainer bug fix. 

When it comes to situations like this, the goal is generally to fix what's wrong while affecting players the least. Note that this is not always the same as affecting the least amount of players.

 

The Problem: Damage Buffs increase the amount of +Resistance offered by Fade.

 

The Cause: A combination of Fade's +Resistance being enhanceable, the power itself allowing outside sources of Strength (e.g. Power Boost), and the longstanding relationship between Damage Resistance and Damage buffs.

 

The Solutions:

1. Remove the +Resistance
2. Remove the ability to enhance the +Resistance
3. Flag the power to ignore outside sources of Strength

 

Now let's examine these a bit more...

 

Remove the +Resistance

Obviously the least ideal. It fixes the bug, but it changes the player's understanding of what the power does; it no longer "works as advertised" from when they chose it. And for what reason? In order to leave an interaction between Fade and Power Boost, a power not even in the Darkness Affinity powerset. On top of that, it leaves people with enhancements in a power that do nothing now, costing them a respec or unslotters to remove the enhancements, not to mention the initial investment to get those enhancements that are no longer functional.

 

Remove the ability to enhance the +Resistance

While this is probably the option most people here will suggest, it's not ideal either. Why? Because while the power still works as advertised, you're still left with everything else from the last option, all just to accommodate Power Boost, which is only one power in one of the nine APPs Controllers can take.

 

Flag the power to ignore outside sources of Strength

Now, I know you're probably going to say, "This change also forces me to respec!" But, in all honesty, no it does not. Your build may no longer be ideal, but all of your enhancements still work in the powers they're slotted in. Fade still provides the buffs it always has and it still matches its description from before the fix; the only thing that changes, besides the bug with Damage buffs, is the interaction with Power Boost. This solution will definitely upset some people, as any of them will, but Fade itself changes the least with this option. That's what makes it the best option, even if it's not the most popular.

[Bopper]

11 minutes ago, Trickshooter said:

Remove the ability to enhance the +Resistance

While this is probably the option most people here will suggest, it's not ideal either. Why? Because while the power still works as advertised, you're still left with everything else from the last option, all just to accommodate Power Boost, which is only one power in one of the nine APPs Controllers can take.

I dont think Power Boost (and most +Special powers like it) have ever offered +strength to damage, nor +strength to resistance, so it would not apply here. However, I also believe the reason why powers like Power Boost dont boost Damage nor Damage Resistance is because those powers are already flagged as not accepting outside buffs...so it would be a pointless feature.

 

The case where it would come into play is the new Experimentation power, Adrenaline Boost, which is a lot like Power Boost, but boosts strength of damage too, while not boosting defense (it does a few other boosts that aren't normal for +special, fwiw).

[Trickshooter]

2 minutes ago, Bopper said:

I dont think Power Boost (and most +Special powers like it) have ever offered +strength to damage, nor +strength to resistance, so it would not apply here. However, I also believe the reason why powers like Power Boost dont boost Damage nor Damage Resistance is because those powers are already flagged as not accepting outside buffs...so it would be a pointless feature.

 

The case where it would come into play is the new Experimentation power, Adrenaline Boost, which is a lot like Power Boost, but boosts strength of damage too, while not boosting defense (it does a few other boosts that aren't normal for +special, fwiw).

I think you misunderstood what I meant. When I say "to accomodate Power Boost," I meant removing the ability to enhance the +Resistance with enhancements in order to allow Power Boost to affect the +Defense of the power.

[Bopper]

3 minutes ago, Trickshooter said:

I think you misunderstood what I meant. When I say "to accomodate Power Boost," I meant removing the ability to enhance the +Resistance with enhancements in order to allow Power Boost to affect the +Defense of the power.

I see, when I read the Cause section, it looked like you were implying Power Boost could strengthen the resistance of Fade.