I can play City of Heroes blindfolded. With my forehead.

[VileTerror]

If someone feels that the only thing that they find enjoyable in City is "challenge," I think it may be in their best interest to branch out and explore all the other things the game has on offer for you to enjoy!

[golstat2003]

6 hours ago, Bartacus said:

I haven't read this whole thread, only a couple pages. But I agree with the OP actually.... I miss the days of feeling like city of heroes was a challenge. Unforunately I think incarnates and IOs/set bonuses killed this. I know that people are saying to just 'play with SOs' then... and maybe that's worth a spin if I got a group together to do that. But, I think for the long term health of the game, there either has to be more challenging content or some stuff has to be nerfed. I know the community would outrage if stuff was nerfed, and so that's not an option.

And, I agree, some ATs feel completely obsolete. Controllers especially in a team that's actually IO'd feel useless. Why do things need to be held if they're dead? Why do things need to be held if they're alive but the whole team is soft-capped to defense? Controllers actually used to be (arguably) the strongest class. Now, they've been powercreeped out of usefulness. Can you play a controller and still enjoy it? Sure. You can. But it feels silly playing my controller on teams that are actually competent because the only things that actually matter in 99.9% of the content in this game is damage and survivability. Not debuffs, not control, not buffs. Hell, buffing defenders are hardly ever seen because of this. Force Field? Sonic Defenders? why would you pick that when everyone's running around with soft capped defense and close to capped S/L resistance? 

I don't know. I get why people are upset by this thread because you're having fun with the game still. I'm glad that you are. And I know that there are others that are still just as captivated with City of Heroes at its current state as they ever have been. 

But for a lot of people, including myself, I worry that there's going to come a day when I get bored of steamrolling through 4x8 missions with ease. 

Thankfully there are other servers that have a more classic feel for those who are looking for that. My Illusion Kin controller is still one of the most loved controllers out there. Everyone's mileage may vary.

[Wavicle]

8 hours ago, Bartacus said:

I haven't read this whole thread, only a couple pages. But I agree with the OP actually.... I miss the days of feeling like city of heroes was a challenge. Unforunately I think incarnates and IOs/set bonuses killed this. I know that people are saying to just 'play with SOs' then... and maybe that's worth a spin if I got a group together to do that. But, I think for the long term health of the game, there either has to be more challenging content or some stuff has to be nerfed. I know the community would outrage if stuff was nerfed, and so that's not an option.

And, I agree, some ATs feel completely obsolete. Controllers especially in a team that's actually IO'd feel useless. Why do things need to be held if they're dead? Why do things need to be held if they're alive but the whole team is soft-capped to defense? Controllers actually used to be (arguably) the strongest class. Now, they've been powercreeped out of usefulness. Can you play a controller and still enjoy it? Sure. You can. But it feels silly playing my controller on teams that are actually competent because the only things that actually matter in 99.9% of the content in this game is damage and survivability. Not debuffs, not control, not buffs. Hell, buffing defenders are hardly ever seen because of this. Force Field? Sonic Defenders? why would you pick that when everyone's running around with soft capped defense and close to capped S/L resistance? 

I don't know. I get why people are upset by this thread because you're having fun with the game still. I'm glad that you are. And I know that there are others that are still just as captivated with City of Heroes at its current state as they ever have been. 

But for a lot of people, including myself, I worry that there's going to come a day when I get bored of steamrolling through 4x8 missions with ease. 

Radio missions were Designed to be easy.  So it isn't super surprising that content is now easily steamrolled by teams OF PEOPLE WHO ARE OVERGEARED FOR THAT CONTENT.

Take you Controller on a team into the Shadow Shard or Dark Astoria.  Crowd control is still plenty valuable in those places.

[Display Name]

While I do see the number of people playing Excalibur declining (I haven't seen a "red" server status bar in a few months,) I suspect it's because people are migrating to other servers.  During the time frame when the Excalibur server stopped showing red, the other servers have started showing a yellow server status.

 

I've seen players come and go since I started playing, but I haven't necessarily seen a real "decline" in the overall number.  I make new friends all the time!?

 

But to my point: if anyone remembers the BBS game "Tradewars 2002" from back in the day (mid-to-late 80s,) you might be surprised to hear that it *still* has a dedicated community of old-timers.  Sure, it's painfully small.  But the fact that it still exists reassures me that CoH isn't about to "die" anytime soon (at least 30 years, if TW:2002 is any indication.)

 

So any arguments that say "do this or we're all gonna die" basically translates to "the sky is falling!"

[Troo]

Got to red last night (PST) fyi.

 

Ultima Online would also be another example.

 

[VileTerror]

And it bears repeating, because not everyone is here for "the challenge."  The population isn't at risk of declining as long as character customization and base building remain robust and engaging, to say nothing of the social dynamics of being an environment where people can either chat player-to-player, or roleplay.  Anyone who attempts to argue that the game will die without challenging their personal sensibilities of what constitutes difficulty are not looking at the bigger picture.

[RubyRed]

IMO, the problem with threads like this is that they always start with the premise "The game isn't hard enough" and then end with a suggestion of basically universally altering the game for everyone, without regard for those who enjoy the current state. Suggesting things like nerfing IO sets and attunement like OP just starts an unwinnable argument between the sides that like the idea and those that don't.

 

Personally, I like that the game can appeal to a wide range of players, from those who like to sit in their base and RP to those that challenge themselves to solo TFs at +4/x8. The game is for all of those players. However, if you're at the upper range of mastery of the games mechanics, you're probably never going to be satisfied. Adding things like a +8 difficulty option just creates a delaying factor until you discover a build that can easily solo that content. Difficulty inflation isn't an ultimate solution to dissatisfaction with the upper end of the difficulty curve, because that goal post will always move. You could of course increase the difficulty but then not give rewards/power that match that difficulty, such that it becomes a hard ceiling, but then that also becomes unsatisfactory because you basically create an upper bound with no hope of overcoming it, and the mastery-driven players will still leave.

 

Getting back to my original point, though, I would like to see more constructive discussions about the state of the elder game in CoH. The game has a lot of flexibility in builds and mechanics that's quite different from the rest of the genre, and there's probably space there to discuss what those could be. But if the hardcore players just keep suggesting what things to take away from the rest of the players, we'll probably never actually reach those more productive discussions.

[Bastille Boy]

Part of the charm of CoH/CoV is that nearly any combination of powersets is viable. Players who want to choose powersets based on a character concept rather than game mechanics can do that and still have a character that's fun to play (even if it's not optimal). Making mandatory/global increases in the difficulty of the game might make some powerset combinations that are currently viable quite frustrating to play.

 

Another part of the charm of CoH/CoV is that nearly any combination of ATs is viable on a team. There is no holy trinity. A team of all scrappers is viable. A team of all defenders is viable. Tankers aren't needed, and defenders aren't needed, and controllers aren't needed, because nobody is needed.

 

For a lot of players, the endgame is alt-making. For some players, the endgame is PVP. For both these groups of players, being able to level a new alt quickly is a good thing. If adjusting rewards to give players an incentive to do harder content would mean making it harder to level a new alt, I'd be opposed to that adjustment.

 

If the devs have the time and inclination to add options to make the game more difficult, I totally support that!

[Troo]

to echo @ejworthing +1

 

It's been said "If you pick the worst combination there's a chance you'll get a boost. If you play the best combination, change is likely in your future"

 

Play an energy/regen! It can't get any worse, right?!.. =(

 

Edited February 3, 2020 by Troo

[skoryy]

4 hours ago, ejworthing said:

Part of the charm of CoH/CoV is that nearly any combination of powersets is viable. Players who want to choose powersets based on a character concept rather than game mechanics can do that and still have a character that's fun to play (even if it's not optimal). Making mandatory/global increases in the difficulty of the game might make some powerset combinations that are currently viable quite frustrating to play.

 

Another part of the charm of CoH/CoV is that nearly any combination of ATs is viable on a team. There is no holy trinity. A team of all scrappers is viable. A team of all defenders is viable. Tankers aren't needed, and defenders aren't needed, and controllers aren't needed, because nobody is needed.

 

For a lot of players, the endgame is alt-making. For some players, the endgame is PVP. For both these groups of players, being able to level a new alt quickly is a good thing. If adjusting rewards to give players an incentive to do harder content would mean making it harder to level a new alt, I'd be opposed to that adjustment.

 

If the devs have the time and inclination to add options to make the game more difficult, I totally support that!

I was going to write something like this last night.  But yeah, if you think controllers have problems now, increasing difficulty will only make most of them less welcome at endgame once the meta kicks in.

 

Signed, someone livin' la vida Ill/Sonic and lovin' it.

Edited February 2, 2020 by skoryy

[DrRocket]

I can understand those who wants to experience more challenge in the game, it can make sense.

 

On the other hand, I equally understand those who finds the challenge and enjoyment of the game just fine.

 

An there are those who want to make the game easier, by adding lot of conveniences.

 

The issue here is that there are there views that are not compatible.

 

I would feel if the author and other minded folks are truly tired of the no challenge, that there is no problem with them not using IO sets and limiting themselves to SOs. The characters are actually quite effective and the game can provide a lot of challenge, I also recommend when doing this do not play a melee and play instead a support type, they have greater challenges to overcome than melee. And lastly do not take advantage of the incarnate powers as well.

 

The usual issue I have with adding challenge to the game is that it usually provides a disproportionate impact on support types, which is hardly fair to them to take the hit while the challenges are nearly non-existent for the melee types. Sample of developers adding challenge was the introduction of status effects being massively used and the system itself, in which the support classes were given absolutely no protections and the melee types were given more than ample protections against them, thus the ones being challenged and doing all the dying were the support classes. While I am for challenge, I am not for uneven challenge.

 

I do encourage you to give a practical example how would you would like to increase the challenge in the game, without taking away from others, nor having uneven challenges. I am sure you will find this challenge not easy 

[Bartacus]

On 2/2/2020 at 5:56 PM, skoryy said:

I was going to write something like this last night.  But yeah, if you think controllers have problems now, increasing difficulty will only make most of them less welcome at endgame once the meta kicks in.

 

Signed, someone livin' la vida Ill/Sonic and lovin' it.

I don't think that this is true. At all. First of all, there are a lot of ways to increase difficulty. I'm not asking for +5 and +6 enemies. But, even if there were +5 and +6, controllers WOULD be more valuable because things wouldn't instantly die.

Second off, what is with all these controllers talkign about how much they love their controller and then saying it's illusion? Illusion is the LEAST CC controller there is. And it really isn't even talking about the same thing. Phantom Army is a different kind of control that is pretty much always going to be useful. Most other types of controllers aren't very useful in the meta right now unless you're doing a Hamidon Raid and need to kill mitochondria or whatever they're called. 

That said, Hamidon Raids and the Hamidon mission in LGTF are great examples of content that is more difficult without increasing the level scalar. In addition to this, I think the game in general would be more fun and difficult if less classes had access to soft capped defenses. I don't know if that means giving more enemies -Def powers or what. Because I know people will rage if you take away their set bonuses, even if (in my opinion) nerfing defensive set bonuses would be extremely good for the game when it comes to difficulty and teaming and usefulness of classes. Don't respond to that last sentence as if that's the crux of what I'm arguing, because it's not. Point is, we need more difficult content. there are a variety of ways to go about that.

[Bartacus]

38 minutes ago, DrRocket said:

The usual issue I have with adding challenge to the game is that it usually provides a disproportionate impact on support types, which is hardly fair to them to take the hit while the challenges are nearly non-existent for the melee types. Sample of developers adding challenge was the introduction of status effects being massively used and the system itself, in which the support classes were given absolutely no protections and the melee types were given more than ample protections against them, thus the ones being challenged and doing all the dying were the support classes. While I am for challenge, I am not for uneven challenge.

If you're talking about soloing, I agree that more difficulty means that support classes will suffer. But they are support classes - they're not really designed to be solo artists. That said, support classes would FLOURISH all the more in more difficult content on teams, because their buffs and debuffs are that much more useful to keeping the team alive and helping the team deal damage effectively. 

[Chris24601]

24 minutes ago, Bartacus said:

If you're talking about soloing, I agree that more difficulty means that support classes will suffer. But they are support classes - they're not really designed to be solo artists.

Frankly I think calling them “support” classes is Holy Trinity BS. A controller is just as soloable as a scrapper or brute.

 

Frankly, juggling control and your own buffs/debuffs while widdling down a large spawn is a whole different type of challenge than a scrapper rolling through the same content (see the final mission in the Sister Solaris Dark Astoria arc for how differently these two can play... especially since I’ve typically found it much easier on a blaster or controller than a scrapper or brute).

 

There are any of a billion Holy Trinity-based MMOs if that’s the playstyle someone wants. The ability of any AT with any power sets to solo content and do so in completely different ways is a FEATURE not a bug.

 

“You rolled support so shouldn’t even TRY to solo” is crap that can stay in all those  Trinity-based games. I’m here (versus playing the trinity-based MMO I was stuck with for the last seven years and haven’t touched once since my return here) precisely because CoH is NOT like all those other MMOs.

[EmmySky]

14 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

Frankly I think calling them “support” classes is Holy Trinity BS. A controller is just as soloable as a scrapper or brute.

 

Frankly, juggling control and your own buffs/debuffs while widdling down a large spawn is a whole different type of challenge than a scrapper rolling through the same content (see the final mission in the Sister Solaris Dark Astoria arc for how differently these two can play... especially since I’ve typically found it much easier on a blaster or controller than a scrapper or brute).

 

There are any of a billion Holy Trinity-based MMOs if that’s the playstyle someone wants. The ability of any AT with any power sets to solo content and do so in completely different ways is a FEATURE not a bug.

 

“You rolled support so shouldn’t even TRY to solo” is crap that can stay in all those  Trinity-based games. I’m here (versus playing the trinity-based MMO I was stuck with for the last seven years and haven’t touched once since my return here) precisely because CoH is NOT like all those other MMOs.

I have a few 50+1 and I concur.  90% of my game time is soloing because my playstyle is not common.  I like to clear every spawn every mission or just street sweep for a while.  

 

Right now I am putting my girls through posi 1 solo to see what set bonus' they need.  The worst one was my PB because quants but all my 'support' characters are doing well on just common IOs.  

[Klaleara]

I personally would love higher difficulty modes.  But I hope it isn't just an increase to level if they do, as accuracy is already kind of annoying at +4.

 

Just the health of Minions, and Lt's, so they don't melt.  Then increase boss/eb/av damage and accuracy, so they become more of a threat.

 

You do three things with this.

 

1.  Minions and Lt's matter again, as atm, they don't even get a chance to shoot before they die.  And with them surviving a bit longer, the threat of each group should jump quite a bit.

 

2.  Boss+ mobs have to be taken seriously again, as they can actually hit, and the damage would be pretty potent.  Maybe give Boss's+ Leadership too, buff the accuracy/damage/defense of the minions/lt's around them.

 

3.  You bring back the control is Controllers.  Considering that everything is usually dead besides a boss+ within the first couple seconds, the only thing they are good for is the damage really, which imo is wrong.

[HelBlaiz]

I always receive mixed messages from these difficulty arguments. I play a lot of alts, I only have about three over level fifty, and only my fire farmer is IOd to any real degree, because I wanted to have a brain dead easy way to get inf so I could get common lvl 25 IOs for the sea of alts once they reach level 22. My level 50 Inv/TW tank is running on SOs and a panacea proc that dropped in his twenties. He used to be in an SG will all manner of fully IOd out toons and I'd probably be the squishiest teammate. On a invuln tank. We would run stuff on +2 and I'd feel challenged unless the resident /dark corruptor was around, then things would be easy.

 

Everyone complains about how easy the game is when you IO out everything. Of course it's easy! CoH is a numbers game. If.hero#>villain.#= hero.win. Or however the prae clockwork would say it. Everyone goes out of their way to give themselves the biggest numbers. It is literally easier to just get SOs and be challenged than it is to IO out and steamroll.

 

When I sit down on MIDs and theorycraft builds, I'm not doing it expecting to be challenged. I'm doing it to imagine how badass and steamrollery the character could potentially be. Building your character into a literal god and then being angry that the content balanced for mortals isn't hard enough seems petty to me. And backwards. Do you want the biggest numbers? Or do you want to sweat? If you wanted to sweat, why put extra effort into making the game easier? If you wanted bigger numbers why are you complaining  that the enemy has smaller numbers?

 

I'm all for choice, and more modular difficulty sliders sound cool, but why is there so much doom and gloom over how easy the game is? Or how terrible it is to use SOs instead of IOs like the idea of not being a god to be challenged is some sort of insult. You literally have to go out of your way to trivialize +4/x8 content, by playing the market, farming merits, t4 ing incarnates.  Just... Don't? And sweat? Like you say you want to? At least until +6/x10 is on beta?

[Bartacus]

2 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

Frankly I think calling them “support” classes is Holy Trinity BS. A controller is just as soloable as a scrapper or brute.

 

Frankly, juggling control and your own buffs/debuffs while widdling down a large spawn is a whole different type of challenge than a scrapper rolling through the same content (see the final mission in the Sister Solaris Dark Astoria arc for how differently these two can play... especially since I’ve typically found it much easier on a blaster or controller than a scrapper or brute).

 

There are any of a billion Holy Trinity-based MMOs if that’s the playstyle someone wants. The ability of any AT with any power sets to solo content and do so in completely different ways is a FEATURE not a bug.

 

“You rolled support so shouldn’t even TRY to solo” is crap that can stay in all those  Trinity-based games. I’m here (versus playing the trinity-based MMO I was stuck with for the last seven years and haven’t touched once since my return here) precisely because CoH is NOT like all those other MMOs.

Nobody said you shouldn't even try to solo. Are you even reading? I said if the game were more difficult, support classes would have more trouble soloing than scrappers and the like. And that's true. Were you around in issue 1 and 2? that would definitely have been the case then... Maybe I should be more clear. I'm not saying more difficulty means that these support classes CANT SOLO. Just that it would be more difficult, or time consuming. This is currently the case, but would be more noticeable with an increase in difficulty. 

And saying that "calling them support classes is Holy Trinity BS" is also false. It's literally in the game. See image below. 

Edited February 4, 2020 by Bartacus

[NNDeepdish]

Just now, HelBlaiz said:

I'm all for choice, and more modular difficulty sliders sound cool, but why is there so much doom and gloom over how easy the game is? Or how terrible it is to use SOs instead of IOs like the idea of not being a god to be challenged is some sort of insult. You literally have to go out of your way to trivialize +4/x8 content, by playing the market, farming merits, t4 ing incarnates.  Just... Don't? And sweat? Like you say you want to? At least until +6/x10 is on beta?

Seems so simple, doesn't it?

[Bartacus]

21 minutes ago, NNDeepdish said:

Seems so simple, doesn't it?

I've already said I'm interested in trying an SO only character. The problem with this is that I either need to just never team with anyone ever (because nobody else will be doing this, and they will just steamroll content FOR me) or just exclusively play with a group of friends that are only using SOs (which is certainly an option, albeit difficult to get everyone on the same time schedule and means I can only play when everyone else can play). 

Like it has previously been stated, difficulty is something that can and should be critiqued in games. Saying I have to go out of my way to make the game more easy is the equivalent of saying that I'm making the game easy literally by playing it the way it was intended to be played (which is using the enhancements that are built into the game). Of course I can lock myself out of entire pieces of content to make it difficult. I could only play psionic clockwork missions to make sure I take some damage when I actually get hit, too. Just because there are options to make the game more difficult doesn't mean the game isn't overall extremely easy when playing it through all of the normal channels of gameplay. These include:

Teaming with people literally ever, unless there's some kind of gentlemen's agreement to only use SOs
Using IOs literally at all, even though years of design went into them

I feel generally exhausted by even having this conversation because this community is very stubborn when it comes to change. I suspect the Devs of Homecoming feel like they have to really tip-toe around balance because, being that this is a private server, if they decide to change something that people don't like then there could be an exodus to another server that had COH just how they liked it. This server is supposed to be the 'future' of CoH. But, it's impossible for CoH to have a future without change. 

The general argument in this thread is this: I'm having fun the way it is, so don't change anything. But nobody is telling you to stop having fun. We're just saying the community will probably shrink over time if the game remains this easy. We're not saying 'doom and gloom' nobody will be playing. But, part of the joy of any MMO is seeing lots of people around. Not everyone is going to find it fun to steamroll through the same content for years and years - and that will make the game LESS fun for those of you that stick around. Because a giant world that feels* empty of people isn't the CoH as you remember it. 

*note it doesn't have to literally be empty of people to feel empty. If you go into atlas and only see 2 people there, even if 80 people are online on your server, in such a large world it will feel more empty than the current state of the game where hundreds are logged on at any point in time. And if we can't agree on this, then my further involvement in this thread is completely pointless.

Edited February 4, 2020 by Bartacus

[skoryy]

3 hours ago, Bartacus said:

I don't think that this is true. At all. First of all, there are a lot of ways to increase difficulty. I'm not asking for +5 and +6 enemies. But, even if there were +5 and +6, controllers WOULD be more valuable because things wouldn't instantly die.

Second off, what is with all these controllers talkign about how much they love their controller and then saying it's illusion? Illusion is the LEAST CC controller there is. And it really isn't even talking about the same thing. Phantom Army is a different kind of control that is pretty much always going to be useful. Most other types of controllers aren't very useful in the meta right now unless you're doing a Hamidon Raid and need to kill mitochondria or whatever they're called. 

That said, Hamidon Raids and the Hamidon mission in LGTF are great examples of content that is more difficult without increasing the level scalar. In addition to this, I think the game in general would be more fun and difficult if less classes had access to soft capped defenses. I don't know if that means giving more enemies -Def powers or what. Because I know people will rage if you take away their set bonuses, even if (in my opinion) nerfing defensive set bonuses would be extremely good for the game when it comes to difficulty and teaming and usefulness of classes. Don't respond to that last sentence as if that's the crux of what I'm arguing, because it's not. Point is, we need more difficult content. there are a variety of ways to go about that.

I'm on a phone keyboard so I can't quite elaborate as much as I'd like.  But at +5/+6 your controls won't be as effective due to diminished accuracy and higher resist. And it's not that much of a help for your tanks and DPS that are already def-capped.  And then you get to the guys with the purple patch and, well. You'll need a second controller or dominator on board, and at that point why bother when you can get more out of a defender or corrupt?

 

What would help controllers more would be some manner of defiance bar or such that would make CC useful in a DPS boatrace.

Edited February 4, 2020 by skoryy

[NNDeepdish]

3 minutes ago, Bartacus said:

IThe general argument in this thread is this: I'm having fun the way it is, so don't change anything. But nobody is telling you to stop having fun. We're just saying the community will probably shrink over time if the game remains this easy. We're not saying 'doom and gloom' nobody will be playing. But, part of the joy of any MMO is seeing lots of people around. Not everyone is going to find it fun to steamroll through the same content for years and years - and that will make the game LESS fun for those of you that stick around. Because a giant world that feels* empty of people isn't the CoH as you remember it. 
*note it doesn't have to literally be empty of people to feel empty. If you go into atlas and only see 2 people there, even if 80 people are online on your server, in such a large world it will feel more empty than the current state of the game where hundreds are logged on at any point in time. 

Every game that has ever existed has a declining number of people that play it. That's going to happen regardless of the perceived "difficulty." People move on to other things.

[Grouchybeast]

 

12 minutes ago, Bartacus said:

I feel generally exhausted by even having this conversation because this community is very stubborn when it comes to change. I suspect the Devs of Homecoming feel like they have to really tip-toe around balance because, being that this is a private server, if they decide to change something that people don't like then there could be an exodus to another server that had COH just how they liked it. This server is supposed to be the 'future' of CoH. But, it's impossible for CoH to have a future without change. 

This is, in fact, the beauty of this pioneering new era of City of Heroes in which we live.  If a vast, untapped demand for higher difficulty CoX indeed exists, then no doubt someone will set up a server to develop it.  No doubt players will flock to it in greater and greater numbers to enjoy the new challenges provided.  Maybe it won't be on Homecoming, but surely it will happen.  The future is bright!

[Klaleara]

20 minutes ago, skoryy said:

I'm on a phone keyboard so I can't quite elaborate as much as I'd like.  But at +5/+6 your controls won't be as effective due to diminished accuracy and higher resist. And it's not that much of a help for your tanks and DPS that are already def-capped.  And then you get to the guys with the purple patch and, well. You'll need a second controller or dominator on board, and at that point why bother when you can get more out of a defender or corrupt?

 

What would help controllers more would be some manner of defiance bar or such that would make CC useful in a DPS boatrace.

And thats why in my previous post, I said I'd like the health increased, specifically for Minions and Lt's.  Controllers aren't useful as Controllers due to the fact that literally everything melts within a couple seconds.  Why put something in a hold when it will die within 1-2 seconds.

[skoryy]

5 minutes ago, Klaleara said:

And thats why in my previous post, I said I'd like the health increased, specifically for Minions and Lt's.  Controllers aren't useful as Controllers due to the fact that literally everything melts within a couple seconds.  Why put something in a hold when it will die within 1-2 seconds.

But it doesn't answer why put something in a hold if it can't hit or do serious damage to begin with.

 

We have to begin the discussion with how twenty years of MMO meta theory has rendered CC irrelevant outside of special mechanics.