Knockback Attack! What cool stuff could KB do?

[Galaxy Brain]

I think it's time we bring this up again 😉

 

Knockback is something that many of us find very fun in CoH, but has been controversial in how it works. Without rehashing the specific complaints about it in a team sense, I'd like to touch on what I feel KB is missing. When you knock a guy into a wall, or off a ledge it doesn't seem to bother the enemy at all aside from a minor inconvenience, and with some enemies they don't really seem phased as they will continue to use ranged attacks after a moment of getting back up. In most media, slamming into a wall or off a height generally is a fight-stopping event where either the mook is straight up KOd or it takes a heavy toll on them.

 

Above are some ideas that I've found throughout the boards that could be attributed to KB powers to give them that mechanical oomph on top of the fun aesthetic of flinging guys around. Let's use this thread to come up with fun ways to make KB have more impact!

[honoroit]

They seem already costed for the benefit /detriment/effect of the kb?

 

 

Like some of the energy ones have very quick cast times. 

 

But damage added by distance flown (and negated by kb to kd!) would be nice. 

 

(Knockback is fine!) 

Edited February 1, 2020 by honoroit
KB is fine!

[Galaxy Brain]

The animation times are standardized for the blast sets at least, and I dont want KB to just be "fine" 😉

[Rathulfr]

I wouldn't mind KB having a secondary mez effect that scales with magnitude.  If I knock a guy down, I wouldn't expect that to have much of an effect, but if I knock a guy across the zone, I would expect he'd be dazed for a bit more than the time it takes him to stand up again. 

 

[Saiyajinzoningen]

doesnt every KB thread end up getting locked due to uh......creative differences?

 

that being said, KB itself is already a secondary effect. adding a tertiary effect could be seen as a power creep.

 

however im all down for "falling damage" 

[Darkneblade]

How about ''impact''? Gravity already has this so it could be fine to reuse them.

[Galaxy Brain]

26 minutes ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

doesnt every KB thread end up getting locked due to uh......creative differences?

 

that being said, KB itself is already a secondary effect. adding a tertiary effect could be seen as a power creep.

 

however im all down for "falling damage" 

Other threads are usually about nerfing KB or disabling it. I'd rather have KB be much more potent because its usually treated more as a primary effect than a secondary.

[Haijinx]

Another KB thread?  Must be Saturday.

[Wavicle]

I dunno dude, KB is pretty potent with ragdoll.

[honoroit]

30 minutes ago, sacredlunatic said:

I dunno dude, KB is pretty potent with ragdoll.

They're effectively micro-holds, and function as interrupts.

 

This of course unless you insist on kb to kd foolishness! 

[Wavicle]

well, kb to kd can be potent too.  They're both good.

[Galaxy Brain]

2 hours ago, sacredlunatic said:

I dunno dude, KB is pretty potent with ragdoll.

True, though that is very map dependent and even then is rng when done well :<

[Wavicle]

It's not map dependent.

And if it wasn't RNG it would be ridiculously powerful.

[Galaxy Brain]

What I mean by map dependent is how you need certain geometry to really ragdoll a guy to where they get "stuck", and not all rooms have it.

[Solarverse]

12 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Other threads are usually about nerfing KB or disabling it. I'd rather have KB be much more potent because its usually treated more as a primary effect than a secondary.

I would rather treat it like a turd in the toilet and flush it into oblivion. But, to me, if they would just remove KB from AoEs and Cones and leave them be on single target attacks I would be fine with them. It's not that I hate KB, I just hate how most players use it on teams.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

9 hours ago, Solarverse said:

I would rather treat it like a turd in the toilet and flush it into oblivion. But, to me, if they would just remove KB from AoEs and Cones and leave them be on single target attacks I would be fine with them. It's not that I hate KB, I just hate how most players use it on teams.

i suppose thats true, every other thread is about nerfin KB in some way this is the 1st time ive heard of a buff KB suggestion

[MunkiLord]

On 2/1/2020 at 11:38 AM, Rathulfr said:

I wouldn't mind KB having a secondary mez effect that scales with magnitude.  If I knock a guy down, I wouldn't expect that to have much of an effect, but if I knock a guy across the zone, I would expect he'd be dazed for a bit more than the time it takes him to stand up again. 

 

I think this is a great idea. It will encourage variety as some people will slot for more KB. So I'm all for this.

Edited February 2, 2020 by MunkiLord

[Wavicle]

Although I agree it would be neat if slotting  knockback was actually useful, I do feel like a lot of people in this thread are severely underestimating how powerful knockback already is.

[Sarrate]

7 minutes ago, sacredlunatic said:

Although I agree it would be neat if slotting  knockback was actually useful, I do feel like a lot of people in this thread are severely underestimating how powerful knockback already is.

The problem with knockback isn't its strengths in isolation, but how knockback interacts with the rest of the game. Even if knockback provided some kind of mechanic (like prone mentioned above), would that be worth knocking mobs outside of AoE range (debuffs and damage alike)? What about the uninterrupted damage from melee vs prone's effect? Knockback is the one status effect that doesn't synergize with the rest.

 

Situationally useful? Yes. The right tool for every job? No. Unfortunately players can't swap between KD and KB when appropriate. I feel like characters should get an inherent that allows them to suppress KB to KD while active. (It'd even be thematic, Superman doesn't throttle street thugs to the next city the same way he would Darkseid.) However, since we have IOs that serve that function (albeit at the build level and not dynamically toggleable), I don't think there is much chance of that happening.

[Blackfeather]

15 minutes ago, sacredlunatic said:

Although I agree it would be neat if slotting  knockback was actually useful, I do feel like a lot of people in this thread are severely underestimating how powerful knockback already is.

I don't think people disagree that Knockback isn't potent - mitigating damage for a few seconds is great - just how team friendly it is. It's why Intangibility, Knockback, and Repel are generally disliked in groups - when used badly it not only controls enemies, but controls the fun of others. That is to say: any control effect that cuts both ways in some shape or form is going to cause problems in teams due to their nature.

 

It is a bit of a shame that that's the case; I immensely enjoy playing classes that can control the battlefield, not just in CoH, but in other games as well. For me, control abilities make me feel powerful in the same way that dealing a lot of damage might make others feel powerful, or soaking up a lot of damage. They add a fun twist to just altering numbers (buffs/debuffs, attacks), in that you're managing the logistics of the fight.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

oh boy here we go

[honoroit]

If you took away the kb... It's just a bit of a disappointment.

 

Such intense blast!, and... nothing happens. 

 

A controlling power set is rarer in mmos these days.

 

While we don't quite have eq2 illusionist levels of awesome in coh, we certainly have varied sets and everything from telekinesis to earthquakes. 

 

But they require a degree of finesse.

 

The controller/dom who's instaspamming aoe immob is just probably new to something they don't see in an ffxiv or wow, and that has more impact target count wise than a gw/gw2 mesmer.

 

Is it annoying when you literally just finished placing 3 rains on your ice/cold and a pb knocks everything out of a very nasty patch?

 

Perhaps the first time, and only if you'd want to see what you could do solo repeated on a team. 

 

Mechanics that cause you to have to think, dynamically react, and modify what you do remain annoying if you don't do anything to embrace the team your with. 

 

It's not a solo exhibition, it's a team of super heroes/villains on missions of grand import. 

 

So many mmos are about clawing down a wall with a set 'max dps' rotation, and 'skill' measured by how well you can play a repeating ditty of that on a keyboard. Maybe dodging out of circles that appear in the ground to tell you where to not stand in the fire. 

 

CoX offers a great deal more in a dynamic battlefield where LOTS is happening all the time.

 

Not everything is telegraphed, and neither are your team members.

 

Knockback, repel, and phase are fine! 

Edited February 3, 2020 by honoroit

[SeraphimKensai]

Impact damage that scales based on the magnitude of the knockback. Maybe even turn targets/debris getting knocked back into projectiles that cause additional damage to mobs they hit? That might be a stretch but would be a fun mechanic.

 

Also we have Repel, why not have powers that draw something in, with a negative repel value? Like how things get sucked into a tornado before getting flung, or how gravity pulls things nearer?

[Bossk_Hogg]

On 2/1/2020 at 12:11 PM, Saiyajinzoningen said:

doesnt every KB thread end up getting locked due to uh......creative differences?

 

that being said, KB itself is already a secondary effect. adding a tertiary effect could be seen as a power creep.

 

however im all down for "falling damage" 

KB is a mostly detrimental secondary effect from an efficiency standpoint.  It can certainly be fun, but primarily for the user, and this fun can often come at the frustration of your team. My suggestion was always to up the damage based on the mag of the KB. So at least when shit goes flying you know it got hurt. 

[Wavicle]

 No, do not increase the damage with the magnitude of the knockback. That just means that people have to slot knockback in order to get full damage on their attacks. That would be stupid.