Scale Knockback Chance,Not Just Magnitude, Across ATs

[Widower]

Must every thread about knockback inevitably result in flame wars? Try not to do that again.

[Haijinx]

4 hours ago, Super Atom said:

 

It's like saying Titan weapons is boring. 😉

 

QFT

[Outrider_01]

5 hours ago, Super Atom said:

Whaaaaaambulance, I can't come up with a better response.

 

 "I should just learn to play better and stop blaming others when minions go flying."

Neat dude.  See what I did there.

 

I don't want to get in a bitter feud with you.  I am trying not to blame you personally but your very first post mocked someone about trolling groups and then dismissed another person who knows how to play to the weakness of KB.  That annoys me. 

 

I never said you have to play better, the better player teaches another person to get get better than the newb slinging energy torrent like a piece of trash. You are just coming off as a dick over an aspect of the game.

 

Do you at least see what I am trying to say.  The trollish response you started with is just gonna bring more shots fired back at you; I know that I did that but generally I am not like that.  I crack more jokes about stuff and if I get to the way your reactions are I just step out of the thread.

 

Next time be more constructive and voice your opinion without the negative attitude (first post then the following insults), you make it sound like anyone that throws stuff around with KB is evil and you/anyone is suddenly a victim without taking into account the person using it.  It is usually stupidity or ignorance on their part so help them out instead of raging over it.

 

Edit: I should read more of the thread first.

 

5 hours ago, Super Atom said:

It catches a lot of flak because it has to deal with knock back in every single ability

 

I agree with this, just bring it up sooner.  That is a very good observation and opinion.

 

Edited February 18, 2020 by Outrider_01

[Solarverse]

You have to admit, a lot of people hate knock back because there are LOTS of players who simply don't mesh well on teams. I know a lot of you play well with knock back, but you have to remember, a majority of players dont post the forums, so these players who use knock back in a way that hurts the team dont come here to learn otherwise.

 

It's not your fault so many players hate knock back, but we do hate it for good reasons.

[_NOPE_]

Forum Pro Tip from a veteran - If the content of your post is going to be primarily consisted of negative commentary on another forumite's personal attributes, rather than the primary topic of the thread - reconsider posting that message.

[Oubliette_Red]

3 hours ago, Solarverse said:

You have to admit, a lot of people hate knock back because there are LOTS of players who simply don't mesh well on teams. I know a lot of you play well with knock back, but you have to remember, a majority of players dont post the forums, so these players who use knock back in a way that hurts the team dont come here to learn otherwise.

 

It's not your fault so many players hate knock back, but we do hate it for good reasons.

This would be an opportune time to educate said players.

 

If they are on your team, provide a little constructive commentary regarding their power's KB and affect on team dynamics. Positional use of their powers, blasting runners, etc. You are not telling them how to play, just giving them advice. They may be new players or maybe they don't normally play powersets that have KB components, hell they could just get a kick out of watching mobs go flying. I know I thought it was hilarious as all get out when I mez'd Scirocco and he clocked Ghost Widow during an STF even though it nearly caused a team wipe.

I can see one of four outcomes:

• They may thank you for the tips and modify their plan-of-attack
• They say nothing and modify their plan-of-attack
• They say "Piss off, I'll play my character how I want" and continue blasting gathered mobs
• They say nothing and and continue blasting gathered mobs

At which point the team lead can decide to keep said player on their team, finish out the mission and kick them from the team, or kick them from the team immediately and likley place them on their block list with a 'Not a team player' note.

 

Am I thrilled over KB? Not really, but I regularly team with friends who play Khelds or powersets that KB. I don't gripe at them about it so why would I gripe at someone that's not my friend. And I have to say that in my time of playing on Legacy and here on Homecoming, I've not met a player that intentionally griefs the team they are on with KB.

 

Edited February 18, 2020 by Oubliette_Red

[Solarverse]

1 hour ago, Oubliette_Red said:

This would be an opportune time to educate said players.

 

If they are on your team, provide a little constructive commentary regarding their power's KB and affect on team dynamics. Positional use of their powers, blasting runners, etc. You are not telling them how to play, just giving them advice. They may be new players or maybe they don't normally play powersets that have KB components, hell they could just get a kick out of watching mobs go flying. I know I thought it was hilarious as all get out when I mez'd Scirocco and he clocked Ghost Widow during an STF even though it nearly caused a team wipe.

I can see one of four outcomes:

• They may thanks you for the tips and modify their plan-of-attack
• They say nothing and modify their plan-of-attack
• They say "Piss off, I'll play my character how I want" and continue blasting gathered mobs
• They say nothing and and continue blasting gathered mobs

At which point the team lead can decide to keep said player on their team, finish out the mission and kick them from the team, or kick them from the team immediately and likley place them on their block list with a 'Not a team player' note.

 

Am I thrilled over KB? Not really, but I regularly team with friends who play Khelds or powersets that KB. I don't gripe at them about it so why would I gripe at someone that's not my friend. And I have to say that in my time of playing on Legacy and here on Homecoming, I've not met a player that intentionally griefs the team they are on with KB.

The piss off part seems most common, haha.

[Wavicle]

3 hours ago, Oubliette_Red said:

 

At which point the team lead can decide to keep said player on their team, finish out the mission and kick them from the team, or kick them from the team immediately and likley place them on their block list with a 'Not a team player' note.

 

 

 At which point I leave the team and put the team leader on my block list. This game is so incredibly easy and for anybody to take it so seriously that they block people for using knockback powers in a way they don’t like is Incredibly immature and self centered.

 

It is not a reasonable reaction. It is an over reaction.

[Super Atom]

48 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

 At which point I leave the team and put the team leader on my block list. This game is so incredibly easy and for anybody to take it so seriously that they block people for using knockback powers in a way they don’t like is Incredibly immature and self centered.

 

It is not a reasonable reaction. It is an over reaction.

True, even I wouldn't kick someone for it

[Galaxy Brain]

The bottom line is that KB is the most common tool that a player can use to, intentionally or not, interact with another player's powers in a non beneficial way.

 

(Other examples are Repel, Wormhole / tp foe which all relocate enemies per the player's whim. There is also the ST cages and Phases/Dimension Shift that lock other players from interaction depending on the scenario. But these are much much much more infrequent than the array of KB powers)

 

I think what is missing from the conversation is that not all KB powers are created equal. I dont think anyone has a problem with powers that are guarenteed to knock back, as often those are used "correctly" or at least are predictable. A new player using Gale has a very easy "tell" for when they use the power with the massive effect, as well as how it more or less uniformly moves a group. Other players can adapt to that easily and you can likewise easily talk to the stormy to have them use gale into a wall or something if that comes up. Same deal with the ST knockback powers. If a player is actively using only those powers, imo they are on some level aware of what they are doing and then it could fall under griefing since they are actively choosing to go against the team by just pushing mobs everywhere and nothing else.

 

What is an issue is when you get into RNG KB as well as key powers that scatter mobs by design (PBAoEs). The RNG ones like say, Energy Torrent or Explosive Blast have a 60% and 50% chance to knock their targets. With caps of 10/16, you are looking at 4-8 targets on average who do *not* get moved while others get sent along even when you are utilizing KB correctly. This can be frustrating even when Solo as you do not get uniform utility.

 

The PBAoEs likewise also cannot be easily controlled. Targeted AoEs at least always knock enemies away from where you are facing in the same general area, even if you launch it at the back of the group those closest to you should be knocked "forward" and not towards you. With PBAoE KB the best use is often to surround yourself and let it rip which causes all kinds of scatter. Some, like Nova, can have the luxury of a ton of area where you can position the blast, but others more or less lose out on damage / etc if you arent mobbed all around.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[RikOz]

On 2/16/2020 at 2:23 PM, oedipus_tex said:

The current value, 50% chance, means scatter. Pushing the value upward decreases scatter. If anything more consistency should make gameplay smoother. 

"Consistency" is my issue with KB. I would much prefer if KB was a yes/no thing per power. A power either has KB or it doesn't. That way, I am the one who gets to decide when I KB a mob. Otherwise, when I'm playing an Energy Blast character, where every, or nearly every power has a "chance" to KB, I never know when it's going to happen, and it happens when I least want it (like when I KB that mob who is guarding the hostage, he goes flying three levels down, and to finish rescuing the hostage I have to either go find that mob or stand around waiting for him to come back) and fails to happen when I'm most hoping for it (I've got 4 hit points left, I have no heals, and that mob is running right at me).

On 2/16/2020 at 2:25 PM, Super Atom said:

The problem is knocking them away at all. Scatter isn't great but knocking them back further wouldn't help either. People get annoyed because knockbackers just throw the mobs around and make people miss their AoE's and mess up cones. Not to mention knocking out of debuffs or other patch based powers.

Indeed. I just love it when I'm on a melee toon and Fusionette or Overdrive keeps knocking my targets out from under me (or I'm going after Captain Castillo and Doc Delilah keeps sending Sky Raiders sailing off the scaffolding and then jumping down after them).

[Wavicle]

8 minutes ago, RikOz said:

 when I KB that mob who is guarding the hostage, he goes flying three levels down, and to finish rescuing the hostage I have to either go find that mob or stand around waiting for him to come back)

This is an example of bad play, not bad design.  You know that your power has a chance to knockback enemies, so you should not aim in the direction of the cliff.

Knockback is just about the only effect in the game (Repel also) that requires actual player skill (barely). That's not an argument for or against, just an observation.

[Super Atom]

12 hours ago, Outrider_01 said:

words

 

 

Listen, I'm not gonna go back and forth with you about this after this final post. My initial post where i fixed the guys grand standing was more of a joke than an attempt for dialogue. You can tell by his post similar to the furry that they under no circumstance will ever admit fault to KB. It's a pointless endless fight even if you admit there can be positives to KB.

 

To make the claim everyone should have to teach people on a day to day basis how to use knockback is asinine. It's self explanatory and extremely easy to figure out, coh is not that hard. Could i have been nicer to the guy who freaked out someone said a bad word about knockback? Probably, but see my above statement and their reactions to anyone daring to imply knockback is a negative. I thought i was plenty constructive and decently nice to the furry, who started off by being insulting and finished by being insulting (his final freakout was deleted by GM's) If you're going to try and high horse someone for being insulting or not constructive, you should probably at least try to maintain that position on the thread you're doing it in instead of supporting and egging it on when it's on your side.

[Super Atom]

2 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

This is an example of bad play, not bad design.  You know that your power has a chance to knockback enemies, so you should not aim in the direction of the cliff.

Knockback is just about the only effect in the game (Repel also) that requires actual player skill (barely). That's not an argument for or against, just an observation.

 

I don't think It's bad game design, I just think It's more of a oversight in a lot of places. Hurricane (granted thats repel) Is a strong -tohit to back up its repel. Force bubble is gigantic and can pin enemies to the wall reliably (though sometimes buggy) and while I don't much like that power either it has a set niche. Knockback in a lot of powers doesn't add much while subtracting for many. If energy blast for example had higher damage to support the idea that you're hitting a guy so hard he flys through the air then it'd be a different story. Gale, while hilarious has the same issue. I'd like to see gale also have a stun or something personally. Idk about you, but if i got hit with a giant gust of wind randomly inside a warehouse I'd be pretty stunned.

[Galaxy Brain]

32 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

 

I don't think It's bad game design, I just think It's more of a oversight in a lot of places. Hurricane (granted thats repel) Is a strong -tohit to back up its repel. Force bubble is gigantic and can pin enemies to the wall reliably (though sometimes buggy) and while I don't much like that power either it has a set niche. Knockback in a lot of powers doesn't add much while subtracting for many. If energy blast for example had higher damage to support the idea that you're hitting a guy so hard he flys through the air then it'd be a different story. Gale, while hilarious has the same issue. I'd like to see gale also have a stun or something personally. Idk about you, but if i got hit with a giant gust of wind randomly inside a warehouse I'd be pretty stunned.

 

 

More dakka?

[Haijinx]

Lol.  I'm not going to try and teach people how to knockback.  

 

If someone is sending mobs all willy nilly Ill just scrapper/stalker/blapper-lock even farther ahead of the group. 

 

 

[oedipus_tex]

I would be totally down with Energy Blast and perhaps also Assault Rifle having an option to turn knockback into knockdown using a system like Dual Pistols has. That would allow players of those sets to turn their knockback on or off per shot. It would also mean you could actually slot for knockback distance, and make the decision shot to shot whether to use it.

 

It's precisely because I am fine with this that I think knock Chance should be higher for Defenders, instead of just knock Magnitude. Especially in powers like Psionic Tornado just for the cool factor of making the entire enemy group flip over.

[MunkiLord]

7 hours ago, Wavicle said:

 At which point I leave the team and put the team leader on my block list. This game is so incredibly easy and for anybody to take it so seriously that they block people for using knockback powers in a way they don’t like is Incredibly immature and self centered.

 

It is not a reasonable reaction. It is an over reaction.

I think that's a mistake. I just one star them, then leave a team if I happen to run across them again. If I just block someone I may not realize it as learning or remembering the names of people like that is something I consider an incredible waste of time and effort.

[Outrider_01]

12 hours ago, Super Atom said:

 

Listen, I'm not gonna go back and forth with you about this after this final post. My initial post where i fixed the guys grand standing was more of a joke than an attempt for dialogue.

My bad, and understood.  Try to say that sooner. Your following posts seemed to become insulting which triggers me.  Just tired of this "troll" shit to a group, KB is KB and people need to deal with it. It's not on purpose, troll usually mean intentionally done. 

 

12 hours ago, Super Atom said:

To make the claim everyone should have to teach people on a day to day basis how to use knockback is asinine.

I know its self explanatory, but not everyone rides a bike as a kid just learning the first time and hops on it with no issues.  Like I said though, newbs sling it every time the button recharged, you don't have to hand hold, give some advise like angle towards walls and when to sling it, that's not difficult.

 

Any way, happy baddie smashing and let's it call it over.  Just don't come off like you did with the negative comments which you did start with and I don't mean the first, the ones after which lead to this asshole (me) started rambling at you.

[Leogunner]

15 hours ago, Super Atom said:

 

Listen, I'm not gonna go back and forth with you about this after this final post. My initial post where i fixed the guys grand standing was more of a joke than an attempt for dialogue. You can tell by his post similar to the furry that they under no circumstance will ever admit fault to KB. It's a pointless endless fight even if you admit there can be positives to KB.

You didn't fix anyone's grand standing. I just figured if I'm going to bust your balls for straight up lying, I'll wait for some of the infractions to drop off first. 

 

And why admit fault to a liar if they aren't even going to come half way and admit they are lying or at the least, over exaggerating. I may have crass posts at times but at least I don't have to lie to make my points. 

 

The negatives of KB tend to revolve around individual users be it their inability to utilize the KB for good or the inability for trigger happy min/max spammer players to just utilize more ST over AoE. 

[_NOPE_]

On 2/18/2020 at 8:23 AM, The Philotic Knight said:

Forum Pro Tip from a veteran - If the content of your post is going to be primarily consisted of negative commentary on another forumite's personal attributes, rather than the primary topic of the thread - reconsider posting that message.

 

[Leogunner]

8 minutes ago, The Philotic Knight said:

 

Duly noted, but I hold higher value for free speech and willing to accept the consequences that come with it. 

[Sailboat]

Never mind whether people do or do not use COH's knockback well...this thread is evidence that more than one person does not read Homecoming's code of conduct.

[Super Atom]

8 hours ago, Leogunner said:

Furry words

 Ok bud.

[Solarverse]

7 hours ago, Leogunner said:

Duly noted, but I hold higher value for free speech and willing to accept the consequences that come with it. 

I will always +1 Free Speech, even if I don't agree with it.