Income Inequality In CoX

[siolfir]

1 hour ago, Shred Monkey said:

I think OP overlooks the biggest group of complainers:

 

Door Sitters
Getting farmed to 50 with 2X exp on  = 0 inf/hour.  Now you have a level 50 with no enhancements, and no INF to buy some, and no merits.  Unless you have an alt to provide inf/merits, you're up the creek without a paddle.  

 

 

Unless they went out of their way to disable them, they're still getting recipe drops which they could sell for inf. If the person they're door-sitting with is level 50 the vendor price will still get them around 1m per hour just on the commons.

 

 

50 minutes ago, jubakumbi said:

Why?

Why do you want to control people you don't know in a dead MMO running on rogue servers?

Why does the game have to have some unobtainable perfect balance no game has?

Hawkeye and Thor are not balanced.

Not everyone will put the same time and energy into a game and therefore their avatars will not be balanced.

 

Advanced players will play in advanced ways, others may not, this is how games are played by passionate people.

 

The only thing IMO you seem to be saying here is that you think other people can get the free slot machine to produce faster doing things others don't want to do.

Oh well, such is life, there is no such thing as balance, it is an illusion sold to people to make them think life is fair when the opposite is reality.

 

Really, where does this desire to prevent other from earning 'too much' in a video game come from?

Did you even read what you quoted? Here, let me highlight it for you:

13 hours ago, Inheritor said:

Ideally, I'd like to see this income inequality reduced, perhaps by dramatically increasing the rewards earned from radios and weekly strike targets. Realistically, the top two classes will always earn too much and there's no simple or even desirable way of reigning them in.

They're pretty much doing the opposite of what you're claiming. They want people to be able to have more options to get similar amounts of inf.

[Fan Mail]

What if the AE farmers decided to sell their drops for 4 times (or more) of what they're currently selling?  THAT would cause all kinds of havoc.  

 

I mean, they don't need the $.  I'm not recommending this happen just presenting a what if...?

Edited February 17, 2020 by tafilr

[Shred Monkey]

47 minutes ago, siolfir said:

2 hours ago, Shred Monkey said:

I think OP overlooks the biggest group of complainers:

 

Door Sitters
Getting farmed to 50 with 2X exp on  = 0 inf/hour.  Now you have a level 50 with no enhancements, and no INF to buy some, and no merits.  Unless you have an alt to provide inf/merits, you're up the creek without a paddle.  

 

 

Unless they went out of their way to disable them, they're still getting recipe drops which they could sell for inf. If the person they're door-sitting with is level 50 the vendor price will still get them around 1m per hour just on the commons.

 

OK.. so they're level 50 with 2-3M inf and I feel even less sympathy for them when they complain.

 

 

[Gerswin]

Any increase in rewards for certain behavior will just cause it to be farmed.  Since accounts are free, there is nothing to stop an overachiever from using multiple accounts to farm radios or WSTs or Ouro arcs or whatever.  Anything a team of casual players can do an efficient player can do solo or duo with a team or league full of leeching accounts. 

[Shred Monkey]

22 minutes ago, tafilr said:

What if the AE farmers decided to sell their drops for 4 times (or more) of what they're currently selling?  THAT would cause all kinds of havoc.  

 

I mean, they don't need the $.  I'm not recommending this happen just presenting a what if...?

This isn't how it works.  Nobody would be buying them.  They'd just sit unsold in the AH.

 

[MTeague]

5 hours ago, Inheritor said:

You don't technically need IOs, but all too often I'm on a team of 7 IO'd "squishies" and 1 SO'd brute. The 7 IOs are breezing through the mission taking no damage while the 1 SO is constantly dying. I wonder if that person is having fun. I legitimately don't know, but if it were me, I wouldn't be. I don't think they should be shunned for their "ignorance" or "laziness" because they just wanted to punch nazis in PI with their cow-themed superhero instead of looking up a guide on how to make imaginary money in a dead superhero game, even if the guide is very simple.

Well, here's the thing. If that brute is on a team of 7 blasters?  Then okay, they can't do that that much to help him.  He's gonna die a lot. 

Although IF, all 7 had Manuevers, and stayed in midrange of him, he'd get a HECK of a defense boost...

 

But if that team of 7 "squishies" include...  a couple defenders... or corruptors.... controllers or MM's.... maybe a widow/soldier... he should be getting some decent team buffs.  Heck, even some stalkers and scrappers, if tricked out would be easily able to help the guy soak an alpha strike.  And controllers could do the oldschool lockdown to help the SO'd brute stay alive.  I don't know.  I admit I don't team more than 50% of the time. But when I do team, I very much adjust my playstyle to help out the person who's struggling the most.  Whether that's leftover habits from being tank/healer/cc in other MMO's or just because I think "team" should mean more than "able to enter the same mission", I find myself doing what I can to make sure no one's dying repeatedly.

[siolfir]

3 minutes ago, MTeague said:

Well, here's the thing. If that brute is on a team of 7 blasters?  Then okay, they can't do that that much to help him.  He's gonna die a lot. 

An IO'd out Blaster can absorb the alpha, and a team of 7 of them means that there isn't an alpha, because the mobs are gone before they get a chance to return fire.

[Troo]

2 minutes ago, siolfir said:

An IO'd out Blaster can..

and back to having to have billions to be successful.. just going in circles.

[MTeague]

45 minutes ago, tafilr said:

What if the AE farmers decided to sell their drops for 4 times (or more) of what they're currently selling?  THAT would cause all kinds of havoc.  

 

I mean, they don't need the $.  I'm not recommending this happen just presenting a what if...?

Sooner or later the AE farmers hit max inventory and max auction house inventory and they want to farm even more, but something has to sell.

So they would start re-listing for cheaper.  It only takes a few undercutters before more would join.  

 

When there's a cieling on how much you can stockpile at any one time preventing you from obtainnig more, its a powerful incentive to sell for a more modest price.

 

I admit though, I'm sort of waiting for the day when a few farmers have all 100+ toons completely tricked out with everything they could possibly want and then sit at the screen wondering what's the point of farming anymore.  I imagine at that point they either have to learn to enjoy story arcs exploring the rest of the content or they would just stop farming.  But I also admit, that's probably me projecting, since I never saw farming as remotely enjoyable.

[siolfir]

2 minutes ago, Troo said:

and back to having to have billions to be successful.. just going in circles.

Context. Go back to the beginning of what I was replying to.

[Luminara]

15 hours ago, Inheritor said:

Radio Runners
Approximate Income: 0-1 million inf per hour
Radio missions give practically no rewards, yet for many people it is their primary activity due to the ease of joining and leaving a team. As a result, they cannot afford even the very basic of IOs unless they happen to win the drop lottery.

 

Your entire premise is based on this piece misinformation, and it is patently and demonstrably untrue.

 

Prior to merit rewards, on the original servers, a Trick Arrows defender or controller could generate 7.5-10 million inf* per hour running radio missions.  Below x4/x8.  Solo.  Trick Arrows.  This was how I financed all of my alts and paid for multiple multi-billion inf* builds.  On the Homecoming servers, one can generate 2-4 times as much inf*, without counting merit rewards.

 

A build using common level 25-30 IOs was less expensive than a build using SOs, and slightly more efficient, on the original servers.  On the Homecoming servers, recipe, salvage and crafted IO prices are aren't even a tenth of what they were.  Frankenslotting with select inexpensive set IOs is even cheaper and significantly more efficient.

 

On those two points alone, your assertion is disprovable.

 

Going further, you imply that, for some reason, anyone "needs" to generate an inf* income of multiple millions per hour.  This is fallacious.  Inf* requirements are dictated by each individual player's preferred pace and performance level.  Someone who prefers casual radio missions has no inherent need for an "uber" build with multiple expensive IO sets and maximal bonuses, and is therefore generating inf* at a pace appropriate for him/her.

 

In fact, not one player, in the history of this game, has ever "needed" inf* generation on the scale you think should be mandatory.  There is a finite limit to spending, after all, and beyond that, accumulation of inf* is little more than a goal unto itself.

 

Additionally, this game was, and still is, an MMO, with an ingrained necessity for player retention.  One of the ways this is accomplished is through controlling progress by careful regulation of things like XP gain and inf* generation.  This is not theory, this is science.  We, humans, typically place very little value on that which is obtained with no effort or time.  We lose interest in the shiny toy and leave to find another shiny toy.  This behavior is detrimental in an MMO, resulting in a notable decline in player retention.

 

Furthermore, your proposal would result in wildly spiralling inflation.  People would be playing significantly less to acquire the inf* to achieve their goals, which would lead to fewer recipe and salvage drops.  Prices on everything would climb rapidly when the existing supply of recipes and salvage diminishes and is not replenished at the previous rate.  Even with merits, converters and the Homecoming team seeding salvage, the market would experience massive fluctuations and increases in prices across the board.  In the end, your altered inf* accumulation rate would do no real good, because everyone would be right back where they were before.  The only notable difference would be the additional zeroes on the prices.

 

No-one "needs" 500,000,000 inf* per hour.  No-one needs 30,000,000 per hour.  In truth, no-one needs 1,000,000 per hour.  All anyone needs is enough to pay for the enhancements they want, and the game already supplies that.  People have to play for more than an hour to get it, but, in all honesty, if waiting more than an hour to kit out a character is such a hardship for anyone, they probably shouldn't be playing an MMO... or anything more complex than Checkers.

 

Lastly, "income inequality" is inapplicable in this context.  There is no glass ceiling here.  There is no differentiation based on color or sexual preference.  There is no limitation imposed on one player which does not exist in equal measure for every other player.  Everyone has the option to play the market, or farm in AE missions, or run task forces back to back.  Everyone can achieve equal inf* generation rates.  There is no inequality in Co*, income or otherwise, that I have ever witnessed.

Edited February 17, 2020 by Luminara

[Digirium]

3 hours ago, Shred Monkey said:

I think OP overlooks the biggest group of complainers:

 

Door Sitters
Getting farmed to 50 with 2X exp on  = 0 inf/hour.  Now you have a level 50 with no enhancements, and no INF to buy some, and no merits.  Unless you have an alt to provide inf/merits, you're up the creek without a paddle.  

Standard rewards at AE include these drops: SO enhancements, salvage and recipes (which are L50 and can, if being lucky, include purples). Door sitters gain a variable amount of inf with double-experience turned on through selling those drops -- every little helps.

[Shred Monkey]

6 minutes ago, Luminara said:

they probably shouldn't be playing an MMO... or anything more complex than Checkers.

Yeah.. this is really the heart of this whole discussion.   If people don't want to go through the (very minimal) effort of earning influence needed for a high end build, then they don't get to have one.  Nobody owes them an easier path to success.  It's already too easy.

Edited February 17, 2020 by Shred Monkey

[SeraphimKensai]

14 hours ago, macskull said:

The problem with the OP's premise is that they think there's something wrong with the fact that doing different activities earns inf at different rates. Of course some activities are going to make inf faster than others. As long as those activities are available for everyone (and they are - hell, even a newly-minted level 1 can start playing the AH and make bank) there's nothing wrong with that.

As an example of that, I rolled a scrapper that was essentially just another billionaire hero as the back story. But he was meant to be a self made billionaire. He took a 1 million influence loan from one of my alts and then essentially sat at the Atlas Wentworth's until he had about 1.8 billion influence after I bought all the IO's I needed based on the build I made for him. Then I leveled him up to lvl 8, went on a Posi TF and tossed everyone on the team 50 million to help them get started.

[Troo]

13 hours ago, macskull said:

In that regard, yes, perhaps inf gain below level 50 needs to be looked at to ensure players aren't struggling to keep their enhancements current.

I guess if folks are leveling faster and income isn't keeping up.

 

I might suggest (and this would heavily impact some of my personal activities) discussing splitting the IO recipe pools. Maybe around level 30-35.

[SeraphimKensai]

23 minutes ago, Luminara said:

No-one "needs" 500,000,000 inf* per hour.  No-one needs 30,000,000 per hour.  In truth, no-one needs 1,000,000 per hour.  All anyone needs is enough to pay for the enhancements they want, and the game already supplies that.  People have to play for more than an hour to get it, but, in all honesty, if waiting more than an hour to kit out a character is such a hardship for anyone, they probably shouldn't be playing an MMO.

Need? Probably not, but want, definitely yes. I don't know about anyone else, but I've got damn old since the game started back in 2004, and a lot more responsibilities. My playtime is a fraction of what it used to be. When I play an MMO, I aspire to be the best that I can, I might not be the best there is, but being the best I can is the plan for me at any MMO whether this, wow, Eve, lineage 2, SWG, Diablo III, etc. 

 

I want self improvement. So I see I have work to do, as I only average around 145 million an hour of grinding out influence (not including drops that I craft and sell). That's allowed me to build out 50+ toons, and often times give away quite a bit on the side. When I make a character I want it to be as powerful as possible, so it can help whatever team I'm on.

Edited February 17, 2020 by SeraphimKensai

[MunkiLord]

2 hours ago, tafilr said:

What if the AE farmers decided to sell their drops for 4 times (or more) of what they're currently selling?  THAT would cause all kinds of havoc.  

 

I mean, they don't need the $.  I'm not recommending this happen just presenting a what if...?

Myself and others would notice this and undercut them for huge profits.

[VileTerror]

This is probably going to get shouted down, based on the responses people are sharing here . . . but there is another element to the players who aren't "working the market."
They might find it morally repugnant.  

 

Culturally-speaking, that kind of market mechanic has it's appeal for some people, and certainly seems like a large percentage based on responses here.  But some people avoid the market, not because they "don't get it," but because they view it as a microcosmic exemplar for real-world systems which -are- inherently unfair.  Whether that response has roots in accuracy or not doesn't necessarily change how people -feel.-

 

I've always been curious what might happen in a game where the Devs added two modes of trade:  One free market capital, and the other more akin to a direct barter system.  Naturally, the capital side of the equation would very likely have individuals who feed off of the barter system to further their capital, so some kind of barrier would need to be established between the two exchange systems.

 

OH WELL!  We're too far down this particular rabbit hole to investigate the merit of that idea in City of Heroes now.

[SeraphimKensai]

7 minutes ago, VileTerror said:

I've always been curious what might happen in a game where the Devs added two modes of trade:  One free market capital, and the other more akin to a direct barter system.  Naturally, the capital side of the equation would very likely have individuals who feed off of the barter system to further their capital, so some kind of barrier would need to be established between the two exchange systems.

The closet to this I've seen in an MMO is with Eve Online. As manufacturing for advanced blueprints are controlled by a select few owners of BPO (Blueprint Originals) that allow infinite production reuse, whereas BPC (Blueprint Copies), offer limited usage. It creates a lot of market supply and demand issues, but the economy is amazingly complex for a game.

[Wobegone]

7 minutes ago, VileTerror said:

This is probably going to get shouted down, based on the responses people are sharing here . . . but there is another element to the players who aren't "working the market."
They might find it morally repugnant.  

 

Culturally-speaking, that kind of market mechanic has it's appeal for some people, and certainly seems like a large percentage based on responses here.  But some people avoid the market, not because they "don't get it," but because they view it as a microcosmic exemplar for real-world systems which -are- inherently unfair.  Whether that response has roots in accuracy or not doesn't necessarily change how people -feel.-

While I'm sure you can find a few players who fit this description, its far more likely some players simply don't have the time to both play and use the market.  They have jobs and families so they find it much easier to just vendor items to maximize playing time.  

 

[Haijinx]

That poor SOd brute .. if only he had picked a solo friendly AT so he could easily run a few arcs on Ouro for quick  merits ....

 

 

Oh wait.  

 

 

[Chris24601]

Speaking as what I guess would be the "casual merit earner" category (I don't power level, I just run whatever contact and tip missions interest me, mostly solo because I like to stop and read), as soon as I learned the "sell converters bought with merits on the auction house" trick, I've never particularly felt underfunded.

 

I've never had more than about 10-20 million or so at any one time (typically after a long big aware arc), but that's usually enough to buy the next set of attuned enhancments I need for my next level. You don't even need to worry that much about purple IO sets until you actually ding 50.

 

If you're mostly soloing through stories, about a third of that climb to 50 is in level 40+ range where the inf rate and common recipe vendor sale prices start ramping up and longer story arcs start dropping 40+ merits at a time leading to big inf infusions you probably don't need all of to fill your one or three slots when you level up.

 

Thunderstrikes and Crushing Impacts (my go tos for ranged and melee attacks respectively for their good range of set bonuses) just don't cost that much. ATOs are maybe 10 million each, but that's basically what you'd get from a decent length story arc or merit reward after a periodic morality mission.

 

The point is, as a casual, my usual experience is that I can mostly slot my 1-3 slots per level with whatever I want as soon as earn them just from merit to converter to auction house sales.

 

How much more wealth do you NEED than that?

[Snarky]

I play a LOT of 1-30 characters.  I like it.  Dont fully understand why and it does not matter for this topic

 

The numbers posted seem reasonable. I am broke when i play my normal manner. But i learned to turn those Enhancement Converters to good use through forum advice. Crafting is tome consuming. But i feel i am at least giving back throwing 100 procs on the market. And getting paid

 

I live TFs.  I hate farming. Cannot say why. I will step in on a 50 in someone elses farm or PI radio missions. Decent earning and i like it

 

i (rarely) do some auctioneering. Usually when forced. I want enhancer 1A. But it is 2x more expensive than 1B-E. I Buy 1-5 B-aE.  Convert. Keep some sell rest at markup, but still on low end of selling price. I am good at this.  I dont particularly like spending my gaming time doing it.

 

i prefer to make alts and run TFs. I dont form them and i get cranky if people do them super stupid. Stupid i can suffer through. Super stupid?  Yeah. I need to start leading. Sigh. But that is what i enjoy. So i have merits. Lots and lots of merits. And when i run 50s. (More common now that i am badging). I get purples and PvE recipes. That i kepp in my base like a hoarding dragon. Does nothing to help with cash.  Sigh. Back to crafting lowbie procs lol

 

what i am saying is your numbers may be a lerfect analyzation of the income disparity. But it completely ignores why we play. Some to run lowbies. Some to farm. Some to marketeer. And everyone is rewarded with what they like. Or they change a bit. Usually with good advice from the folks in tbe forum or in Help if they ask

[Rathulfr]

After reading the previous pages, I'm still not seeing the problem here, aside from "L2P".  If you're just running radio missions, you're not playing the whole game.  If you're just running AE farms, you're not playing the whole game.  And if you're playing the game with the 2XP booster on but not selling drops on the AH, you're not playing the whole game. 

 

As long as orange Salvage sells for around 400-500K each, Converters sell for around 75-90K each, certain specific Recipes sell for a minimum 1M each, and the SBB guaranteed Enhancement drops sell for around 5M each, there isn't any reason you can't have enough Inf by 50 to buy sets.  Some sets might be out of reach until you get enough Inf, but not all of them.  And I haven't even mentioned Merits that can be collected simply by navigating zone badges: 5 Merits from AP alone, which can then be converted to Converters, Boosters, or Catalysts.

 

There's no "trick" to playing the market, and you don't have to be a blood-thirsty uber-capitalist pig to do it, either.  Heck, I do it between missions, just enter /ah, toss a few drops up there for the going rate, and then either collect Inf immediately or wait awhile.  It's not hard.

 

[roleki]

2 hours ago, Digirium said:

Standard rewards at AE include these drops: SO enhancements, salvage and recipes (which are L50 and can, if being lucky, include purples). Door sitters gain a variable amount of inf with double-experience turned on through selling those drops -- every little helps.

My experience is skewed a bit because I generally only farm my own alts, but even funneling purples, PVPs and evergreen stuff like Red Fortune/LotG from the camper to the farmer, the camper hits 50 holding a good 15M in inf just from selling common IOs to NPC vendors.  

 

That's not a LOT, but if I had let them keep the good stuff, they'd be sitting on about 90-120M, which is about halfway to a middle-of-the-road IO build.  

 

Overall, I do not understand A) why people would complain they are destitute when they're the ones who opted to 2XP their way to 50, and B) why many of those same people beg for someone else to PL them when they could easily dual-box, get the inf AND the XP.