Combat Proc questions

[tellania]

Hello, I followed proc-monster threads with interest but have a few questions.

 

1.  Do the -res of achilles heel stack?   Does it stack with the other -res IO's (annilation proc or fury of the gladiator)?

 

2.   Do all the BU procs last 5.25 seconds?   Do they stack?   Does the BU trigger BEFORE that attack hits (e.g. siphon insight in a melee attack), or only the attacks after that one hits?

 

3.  When do you choose a damage proc over a damage IO?   I'm confused on what to put into a damage aura vs melee attack.   I know it is either/both power recharge and/or global recharge affects the PPM of the power.

 

4.  If you can use a BU, -res, or damage proc, which would be preferred?    It would seem BU (perhaps multiple) would be best (or several), followed by damage proc (in aoe's), and -res (in single targets)?

Not everything is pylon, though it is a good single target test.

 

I'm planning a build, but I have more options than slots, so any experience or feedback would be greatly appreciated 🙂

[macskull]

51 minutes ago, tellania said:

1.  Do the -res of achilles heel stack?   Does it stack with the other -res IO's (annilation proc or fury of the gladiator)?

Achilles Heel does not stack with itself even from multiple sources, it just refreshes the duration. Each -res proc will stack with the others though.

51 minutes ago, tellania said:

2.   Do all the BU procs last 5.25 seconds?   Do they stack?   Does the BU trigger BEFORE that attack hits (e.g. siphon insight in a melee attack), or only the attacks after that one hits?

All "chance for build up" procs grant the caster the power [Boost Up] and it does stack though the odds of that happening are extremely slim. The proc is checked on activation of the power it's slotted in but won't actually take effect until the activation time has finished so the attack during which the proc fired won't benefit from the buff.

51 minutes ago, tellania said:

3.  When do you choose a damage proc over a damage IO?   I'm confused on what to put into a damage aura vs melee attack.   I know it is either/both power recharge and/or global recharge affects the PPM of the power.

Generally speaking attacks with lower base damage will benefit more from slotting procs versus damage enhancements directly but in order to figure out what is the better option you've got to compare the damage added from enhancements with the average damage added by the proc (since it won't fire every time, you need to multiply the proc's damage by the chance it has to fire in a given power). If I had a power that dealt 100 damage base, an even-level damage SO would raise that by 33% for a final value of 133. Meanwhile, if I had a damage proc that did 72 damage with a 25% chance to fire (making up numbers here) you'd raise your damage by, on average, (0.25*72=18) for a final value of 118. The PPM thread in the guides section of the forum has the equations you'll need to calculate proc chances but normally procs perform better in single-target powers than they do in AoEs or auras/patch/toggles.

 

Don't rely on Mids to tell you the average damage added by procs because Mids incorrectly calculates proc chances using global recharge instead of slotted recharge (the only thing that will affect proc chance is slotted recharge and recharge from Alpha abilities).

51 minutes ago, tellania said:

4.  If you can use a BU, -res, or damage proc, which would be preferred?    It would seem BU (perhaps multiple) would be best (or several), followed by damage proc (in aoe's), and -res (in single targets)?

There's no right answer here because it really depends on your powersets, AT, the power the proc is being slotted in, how the power in question is being enhanced, etc.

[Bopper]

20 minutes ago, macskull said:

Don't rely on Mids to tell you the average damage added by procs because Mids incorrectly calculates proc chances using global recharge instead of slotted recharge (the only thing that will affect proc chance is slotted recharge and recharge from Alpha abilities).

This was actually fixed in the latest (final?) version. 2.6.0.7

 

Toggles and regular click attacks should be correct. Pseudopets are wrong though (uses click formulas when it should be toggle formulas), and the Tanker formulas are wrong because the old Gauntlet made all their single target attacks actually AoEs, which dampens the numbers calculated in Mids.

Edited February 19, 2020 by Bopper

[Leogunner]

1 hour ago, tellania said:

3.  When do you choose a damage proc over a damage IO?   I'm confused on what to put into a damage aura vs melee attack.   I know it is either/both power recharge and/or global recharge affects the PPM of the power.

Just to comment on the last part, power recharge can affect proc rate (but it depends how long the recharge is) while global recharge has no effect on proc rate.

 

Other aspects taken into account:

• longer recharge powers tend to have higher proc rates. Shorter recharge powers tend to have lower proc rates.
• toggles use a different formula and act like 10sec recharge pulses that is used to calculate proc chance.
• Single Target powers have a higher base chance to proc.
• AoE powers have their proc rates altered by the size of their AoE (radius, range and arc).
• Cast time also is used in calculating proc rates. It's usually longer animating powers have better chances to proc.
• All procs are clamped at 90% chance at maxed.

[Haijinx]

16 minutes ago, macskull said:

 

All "chance for build up" procs grant the caster the power [Boost Up] and it does stack though the odds of that happening are extremely slim.

Unless you are a stalker with the buildup ATO.

 

In which case it happens sometimes, not common, but not rarely.  

[macskull]

Just now, Haijinx said:

Unless you are a stalker with the buildup ATO.

 

In which case it happens sometimes, not common, but not rarely.  

Normal version of Assassin's Mark is a 4% chance on each attack, superior is 5% chance. Let's say I pop Build Up initially - there's a 90% chance at most for the BU proc to fire, a 5% chance for the next attack to trigger Assassin's Mark, and another 90% chance to trigger the BU proc a second time. On any given time I pop Build Up, there's about a 4% chance for the sequence I described to happen (double-stacked Build Up and double-stacked BU proc) and due to animation times you might get one second or so of the BU proc being double-stacked where you'd actually be able to do anything with it.

 

I've got a few Stalkers and it's awesome when it happens but if it's that rare on a Stalker imagine how rare it is on anything else. Honestly, just double-stacked Build Up on its own is amazing. The Assassin's Mark proc has no right to be as insane as it is but I love it!

[Haijinx]

Yeah Id say it occurs several times a task force.

 

I always kinda flinch if I forget to fire off build up to take advantage of Double Build Up Double Boost Up then Crushing Uppercut. 

 

 

 

[Clave Dark 5]

Also worth a note that there are occasional powers out there that do little damage but can benefit from having more than one damage proc in them.  I'm a fan of this and the whole "proc monster" ideal.

[Carnifax]

7 hours ago, Clave Dark 5 said:

Also worth a note that there are occasional powers out there that do little damage but can benefit from having more than one damage proc in them.  I'm a fan of this and the whole "proc monster" ideal.

Im a huge fan of this generally. My Time/Sonic defender has 2 damage procs and achilles in Slowed Response. They proc almost every time thanks to the fact ive no recharge slotted in there (cos Time.... why would I need recharge slotting when my global is silly).

 

So youve dumped 51% -resist onto everything and hit everything with the equivalent of 2 tier 1 attacks (sadly the proc damage doesnt benefit from that Resist debuff). And now I'm going to Howl, Build-up-procced Aim and Dreadful Wail you all. Its glorious. 

 

My Necro/Nature Mm also has Knockout Blow and Shark Jaws procced up. Because procs do the same damage for any AT it makes them hit like trucks. 

[Snarky]

Also, in a full Purple set you have maxed (and crushed0 the damage enhancement on a power.  So the Proc damage on top of that is really nice.

[roleki]

Is there a 'rule of thumb' for ATO proc slotting per archetype,  ST vs AoE vs Toggle? 

 

For example, I had read on these forums that the Controller Font proc should go in an AoE like Crushing Field, and having done so I *do* see more Fonts, but, taking that over to my Rad Brute, I am not seeing the same proc rate on the Fury bonus proc in Atom Smasher.  

 

I'm burning through unslotters like crazy trying to find the most effective slotting for my Brute ATO stuff, and referencing builds, people seem to put them darn near anywhere.

[DR_Mechano]

7 minutes ago, roleki said:

Is there a 'rule of thumb' for ATO proc slotting per archetype,  ST vs AoE vs Toggle? 

 

For example, I had read on these forums that the Controller Font proc should go in an AoE like Crushing Field, and having done so I *do* see more Fonts, but, taking that over to my Rad Brute, I am not seeing the same proc rate on the Fury bonus proc in Atom Smasher.  

 

I'm burning through unslotters like crazy trying to find the most effective slotting for my Brute ATO stuff, and referencing builds, people seem to put them darn near anywhere.

The basic rules of thumb I know are that for Scrappers your +50% crit for X seconds proc should go in either the beginning or very end of your attack chain so that it buffs the following attacks.

 

Stalker ATO 'chance for hide' should pretty much ALWAYS go into Assassin's Strike since it will always proc on the first AS you use on a target of an encounter and allows you to follow up with your other hardest hitting attack so that it too will crit and if you've got the 'chance for build up' proc in build up this means you're hitting stupidly hard for your first two attacks (StJ stalkers can shave off like 2/3rds of an Elite bosses health this way).

 

For Brute...I think the +fury proc either goes in a fast recharging attack or in an AoE damage aura if you powerset has one though that one I'm not 100% sure on.

Edited February 20, 2020 by DR_Mechano

[Obus Form]

6 minutes ago, DR_Mechano said:

 

For Brute...I think the +fury proc either goes in a fast recharging attack or in an AoE damage aura if you powerset has one though that one I'm not 100% sure on.

Damage aura is best.  

 

Brutes have two ATO procs that ideally should be in aoe attacks (footstomp) or damage auras

[roleki]

11 minutes ago, tinygodzilla said:

Damage aura is best.  

 

Brutes have two ATO procs that ideally should be in aoe attacks (footstomp) or damage auras

In this case (Rad/Fire) I've got multiple AoE clicks and auras, but I can't seem to 'level' the procs.  I either get high peaks with long valleys, or sustained low bonuses that don't seem to offer much payoff for how much is invested in them.

[Bopper]

7 minutes ago, roleki said:

In this case (Rad/Fire) I've got multiple AoE clicks and auras, but I can't seem to 'level' the procs.  I either get high peaks with long valleys, or sustained low bonuses that don't seem to offer much payoff for how much is invested in them.

I'm curious how the ATO would work with Rad Melee's aura. I'm not caught up on all the changes from the recent update, but from what I know, Irradiated Ground is not like other auras. It is a patch that is dropped every 5 seconds and lasts for 10 seconds. Because it is a patch, I'm not sure if when the ATO procs it goes to the caster (good) or the patch (bad).

 

If it goes to the caster then that is optimal as a typical aura procs every 10 seconds and IG would do so every 5. But if it goes to the patch, then you'll never get the proc benefits.

 

Has anyone tested this?

[macskull]

3 hours ago, Carnifax said:

(sadly the proc damage doesnt benefit from that Resist debuff).

I don’t know if you’re referring to the procs specifically slotted in that power don’t benefit from the -res on the same cast (which is true) or that damage procs in general don’t benefit from -res. Damage procs are resisted which means resistance buffs or debuffs affect the amount of damage the proc actually deals.

[Obus Form]

3 minutes ago, Bopper said:

I'm curious how the ATO would work with Rad Melee's aura. I'm not caught up on all the changes from the recent update, but from what I know, Irradiated Ground is not like other auras. It is a patch that is dropped every 5 seconds and lasts for 10 seconds. Because it is a patch, I'm not sure if when the ATO procs it goes to the caster (good) or the patch (bad).

 

If it goes to the caster then that is optimal as a typical aura procs every 10 seconds and IG would do so every 5. But if it goes to the patch, then you'll never get the proc benefits.

 

Has anyone tested this?

About the aura testing for both Brute proc every 10 seconds: I find this untrue, without direct empirical testing, because my fury gets the +5 fury jump every 5 seconds when slotted into my AOE damage aura Death Shroud.  And my +regen/end discount also procs either every "aoe wave" or every 5 seconds in my AOE damage aura Quills.

[Carnifax]

22 minutes ago, macskull said:

I don’t know if you’re referring to the procs specifically slotted in that power don’t benefit from the -res on the same cast (which is true) or that damage procs in general don’t benefit from -res. Damage procs are resisted which means resistance buffs or debuffs affect the amount of damage the proc actually deals.

The first one. The two procs in the power dont get the bonus damage from the -resist.

 

All the ones in the follow-up powers hella-do 😀

[Bopper]

18 minutes ago, tinygodzilla said:

About the aura testing for both Brute proc every 10 seconds: I find this untrue, without direct empirical testing, because my fury gets the +5 fury jump every 5 seconds when slotted into my AOE damage aura Death Shroud.  And my +regen/end discount also procs either every "aoe wave" or every 5 seconds in my AOE damage aura Quills.

Can you test it to confirm? I've done lots of testing on auras and patches, and they all proc once every 10 seconds. The exception has been IG which procs everytime the patch is summoned (once every 5 seconds).

 

I'll try to see if there is other information that might explain why the Brute ATO is procing every 5 seconds for you...perhaps it is the only enhancement that has a 5 second duration, who knows. I'll dig into my resources now

[roleki]

@Bopper I can test this tonight; I've tested procs in IG before and not come away impressed, but that was months ago before I was actually logging numbers 

[Chance Jackson]

13 hours ago, Carnifax said:

So youve dumped 51% -resist onto everything and hit everything with the equivalent of 2 tier 1 attacks (sadly the proc damage doesnt benefit from that Resist debuff).

Really? 

[roleki]

@Bopper No go on the ATO in Irradiated Ground, it doesn't accept them; am going to try them in Blazing Aura and either Burn or Atom Smasher and will check back in.

[Bopper]

4 minutes ago, roleki said:

@Bopper No go on the ATO in Irradiated Ground, it doesn't accept them; am going to try them in Blazing Aura and either Burn or Atom Smasher and will check back in.

Thanks Roleki. I'm surprised it doesnt take the ATO, I thought they're eligible in any primary/secondary damage power.

[roleki]

31 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Thanks Roleki. I'm surprised it doesnt take the ATO, I thought they're eligible in any primary/secondary damage power.

Nope; takes Universal, Accurate/Defense Debuff, and PBAoE.

 

As for results, I was going 'by-eye' but I'm consistently seeing mid-90s Fury with the Fury Proc/set in Burn, and pretty steady 4x Endurance Discount stacked with that ATO slotted in Atom Smasher.   Decent improvement in the Fury department, about the same results I was getting out of the Endurance Discount when it was in an ST attack.

 

I could probably proc more often if I slotted them in the two low-end ST attacks, but I think I liked where these are sitting because my attack chain has always been Fusion -> Burn -> Atom Smasher -> Devastating Blow -> Fiery Embrace -> Burn... then resorting to STs if something was still left in front of me.  When I put the ATOs in ST attacks, I tend to break stride just to fire those off.

[Bopper]

17 minutes ago, roleki said:

Nope; takes Universal, Accurate/Defense Debuff, and PBAoE.

 

As for results, I was going 'by-eye' but I'm consistently seeing mid-90s Fury with the Fury Proc/set in Burn, and pretty steady 4x Endurance Discount stacked with that ATO slotted in Atom Smasher.   Decent improvement in the Fury department, about the same results I was getting out of the Endurance Discount when it was in an ST attack.

 

I could probably proc more often if I slotted them in the two low-end ST attacks, but I think I liked where these are sitting because my attack chain has always been Fusion -> Burn -> Atom Smasher -> Devastating Blow -> Fiery Embrace -> Burn... then resorting to STs if something was still left in front of me.  When I put the ATOs in ST attacks, I tend to break stride just to fire those off.

Did you happen to look at the proc in your damage aura? I'm curious if procs triggered every 5 seconds or 10.