Why don't you play on the Villain Side?

[Raught19]

I'm creating this poll to see what keeps people from playing on the Villain side so we can help to address it. 

 

I made a suggestion here, on ways to increase the player base for villain side.

 

 

 

 

[Gulbasaur]

Redside content is better than early blueside content, but less interesting than later blueside content.

 

You also swing between working for to improve your station in a merciless world and chaotic dickbag, often with no warning.

 

The Broker system forces you to grind to access story arcs - which is a major reason for me. To access the better content, you MUST go through arbitrary filler. That was a terrible design choice, in my opinion. Yes, you can do much of it via flashbacks, but it makes it quite disjointed from a storytelling point of view as you constantly hop between different storylines, whereas blueside tends to be more concentrated.

 

[EmmySky]

For me, it is not as aesthetically appealing as blueside and, if you read and pay attention to the missions and arcs, player agency is low as you are treated (a great deal) as a lackey rather than a force with which to be reckoned.  Also, I like feeling heroic and I dislike feeling villainous (unless I have had a bad day at work lol).

 

There are times on blueside where you are treated as a lackey (getting that damn book or cloak for Azuria for the billionth time because apparently she is homeless and has nowhere to store such priceless items) but by and large people are seeking your help to do something because you are super.

 

I am currently running a villain and it is not as grim (your poll word) as I seem to recall.  I dont read the mission text much beyond 'go to x defeat y get z' so the lackey bits are not as bad.

 

There is also the horrible terrain that is hard to navigate at certain levels when, by choice or design, you dont have access to certain powers (like travel or stealth or defences).

 

I read your suggestion thread and I dont think extra inf or xp will solve the issue.  I think making all zones intermingle where heroes may have a mission door reside and villains might have a mission door blueside might be a way to make the zones feel more used.  I mean, whether you are hero or villain, it makes sense to take the fight to the enemy and not just fight them on the 'home turf'.

 

Happy hunting!

[Lusiphur Malache]

I play redside often, but occasionally QOL gets in the way. Getting kicked from a team because you used a portal outside the Rogue Isles is frustrating.

 

Low levels might adventure redside more if they had more access points to it. Yeah,null is in pocket d, but that's the only place they can crossover.

[tidge]

I'm running a toon through redside right now, I think this is the third (of about 7 toons with serious play time) on Homecoming to do so.

 

I read a lot about the 'lack of agency of being a villain' reside being an issue for some players, but I am not sensitive to it... or it feels pretty much like the heroside. There are quite a lot of villain arcs and missions (especially the tip missions) which are quite villainous IMO. Once the villains start doing missions in Grandville, those feel perfectly fine for me... maybe because that's when you can really start beating down big name heroes from Paragon.

 

Aside from the general lack of villain teammates, the primary issue I have redside is the need to unlock many contacts via newspaper missions. Contacts will eventually recommend someone else, but the choices are generally much more limited than on blueside. Heroes often get multiple choices whereas I feel like my villains keep getting the same contacts. Ouroborous here I come for the missed arcs!

 

There is a subtle advantage to redside missions: There are a handful of important badges (e.g. Shady) which can be gotten much earlier in a career for redside than blueside. In the case of Shady, I've always gotten in in one of the mid-level VEAT missions. I mention this because...

 

Eventually, all my villains will go blue/rogue to participate in the TFs (and get exploration badges) which make accolades easier. The Valentine's day events also forced some alignment changes to (mis)deliver Valentine's day messages.

[roleki]

I just hated the aesthetics Redside, and the one villain AT that held any appeal to me (MM) was a major disappointment in execution.  Don't know what I was expecting, but, not THAT.  

[Shred Monkey]

I think they should make all zones accessible by all alignments.  You can't get red side missions unless you're the right alignment, but there's no logical reason as to why you can't travel there as a hero.  Really, it should be the opposite.  Why wouldn't a hero go to the rogue isles to fight crime?

 

I always end up being a vigilante because it allows me to go to both sides.  And, unlike rogue, it doesn't get in the way of getting an invite for coop content since most people are blue-side aligned.

[Greycat]

There are several things that keep me from playing redside frequently.

 

1. The "streamlined" maps. Yes, there were complaints about "wasted" maps blueside, but I can take characters through a few different paths. Jim Justice might help out in the Hollows, take on the trolls in Skyway and break the mob in Indy Port, but Lisa Law can help out fighting the Lords of Death, deal with the Outcasts in Steel and the Warriors in Talos - while taking side trips into hazard zones. It keeps it from being same-y. My villains? They see pretty much the same things every time. Sure, you can pick a couple of different contacts... in the same place.

 

2. The grim, grey, dirty and broken scenery, when it's not on fire. Granted, there are places like this, but even the presumably tourist-desiring Giza has cratered roadways a quick (super)hop or two away. It fits some areas, yes. But as part of the "streamlined" maps, there's not really a lot of variety, and the variety there is (Aeon City, say) feels out of place and dropped on top of the "old town" or the slums (or butting right up against the jungle.) It doesn't get that much of a chance to be "different" and develop its own character... which leads to the same-ness of it.

 

3. The writing. Villains are harder to write than heroes. Heroes can react all day long. Villain is doing Badthing to Goodperson? Go save the day! You can even focus on groups or types of crimes. No reason for techguy to fight magic, which he doesn't understand at all. Villains in general are more "doers." They have more agency, and it's hard to address that, or motivation, with preset missions. Something pushes someone to go rob banks or sell drugs out of desperation. Maybe they're forced into it. Someone's just power hungry and will do anything to be on top. Someone's an amoral corporate type who takes advantage of looser laws to begin early human testing to get something to market faster than their competitors. And yet the writing doesn't really address this. You're a flunky, who occasionally beats someone into "following your lead." (Yes, some of this was starting to change in later writing, but even then.) And don't get me started on the VEAT "storyline." It annoyed me enough to (a) enjoy the ATs less and (b) ignore it after the level 10 costume mission.

 

4. Related to that, yes, your characters are flunkies. Or vicious, evil, and/or stupid. Or get suckered into things too easily/frequently. Yes, historically some of my villains *would* beat Frostfire and take power for themselves, going a bit crazy after an eternity or so. Or would say "Here, take this hero and experiment on her and turn her into DE." Or would happily be part of Minions, Inc, since it's a paycheck. But you almost have to write your *own* missions in AE to give yourself a satisfying path (unless you see everything as just sources of XP and merits and don't care, which, hey, valid if that's your thing.)

 

5. There's no really 'undercover heroic' path Redside. I know, redside's for villains, and there's no 'evil' path Blueside either, but there's no choice to - let's say "do the right thing for the wrong reasons" (or, for that matter, the wrong thing for the right reasons.) Or to put it another way... not much grey on either side (aside from redside weather. 🙂 )

 

And that's just off the top of my head... Mind you, probably 20% of my roster is villain. But that leads to (6,) which touches on some of this - concepts. You might be able to think of villain concepts, but they're shoehorned into the same things regardless. Insane assassin? Scientist, mad or otherwise? Someone who sees no other path? Ex military who *likes* being a hired gun? Banished leader from another country/dimension who WILL get followers and rebuild a power base? There's not much to do to express that... short of writing your own stuff in AE.  Which I don't want to do from 1-50 (especially with limited slots.)

 

 

[Erydanus]

I really dislike a lot of the villain zones. It's a mix of aesthetics and layout.  Mercy Island and Grandville are the worst for me. I've said this before and had people try to tone-police me for this viewpoint but genuinely think that the original design of Mercy was a complete screwup. For those who forgot/didn't know, at launch you used to arrive out of chargen at the Fort in the top northeast corner of the map. You literally just had a few feet between you and the leveling content with hostiles right out the door and no space to stand around and group up or hold a costume content. I don't want to feel under fire the second I log into a game! By the time you fought your way through the broken alleys covered with junk and got to the walled city we now start in, you just wanted to blow town right away. I will give the OG Devs credit for reworking the zone so you arrive in the city and there's a decent plaza area you can park in. But the zone's still a pain in the ass and ugly. Praetoria is so much better, you can tell they really learned some lessons. 

 

And Grandville, hey let's add an end game zone that's so needlessly complicated that the elevator to the base portal is on a different building than the one the portal is on, using the same visual elements that you know already strain some people's computers to the point of barely being playable (well back then) AND let's make it really freaking ugly too. Thus at launch there were people who could barely enter Grandville to run their  patron arcs because they could only get about 12 FPS. (Obviously with modern computers this is less of an issue but the zone's still ugly).

 

And as others have said the whole game feeds two consistent narrative lines: you're genuinely a piece of trash and also, "lol, you're a flunky". Again, they learned their lesson and Praetoria does it better. 

 

It IS possible to work around some of the things that I dislike the most but it does restrict which content to do, and that means the CoV areas only support a limited number of alts for me because it's too repetitive to run just the bits I find most tolerable or actually enjoyable. In comparison on City, there's so much more content even if some of it is old and clunky that I can always find a different leveling path. 

 

It's too bad that CoV doesn't have more of the newer content that came in with the new lower level semi-tutorial arcs. That stuff is good. ("I'm the wind... bro!") We just need more of that kind of content in the 25-45 range and instead I find that I basically just go do Night Ward instead.

[tremor3258]

I do play redside though I can get how the aesthetic gets to people.  I also blame the tutorial; it's a later-style arc with more interaction but MAN is the villain a barely functional thug with a violence addiction through the Heart of Darkness arcs.  Most of the other stuff is much better. 

[Snarky]

This is interesting. Redside being deadside is a self fulfilling prophecy. People who want to group go where the groups are.  That means Blueside. 
 

you want to run 4 quick DFBs and maybe get a Posi in all under two hours. Or jump on a free high level PL team. Blueside

 

try getting 4 DFBs and a Tarikoss Redside.  If you manage to do it and do it quickly you will feel like you just ran a 38 min Synapse.  

[srmalloy]

4 hours ago, EmmySky said:

For me, it is not as aesthetically appealing as blueside and, if you read and pay attention to the missions and arcs, player agency is low as you are treated (a great deal) as a lackey rather than a force with which to be reckoned.  Also, I like feeling heroic and I dislike feeling villainous (unless I have had a bad day at work lol).

Mostly this. You're broken out of the Zig because you -- and/or any one of the hundreds of others broken out with you -- may prove to be the Destined One. Once out of the Zig, you become a legbreaker for low-grade street thugs. Prove yourself competent, and you move up to being a legbreaker for higher-grade street thugs. And this continues, with you becoming a legbreaker for bigger and more powerful masters, reaching your peak when you picked one of Lord Recluse's lieutenants as your patron. All without ever becoming a villain in your own right.

[Luminara]

The inherents of brutes, stalkers and corruptors always felt underwhelming to me, and lacked a compelling differentiation from corresponding heroic archetypes.

 

Dominators and VEATs lack coherence.  They're trying to be all things to all people, and being none well.

 

Masterminds were designed better, but they aren't sufficient to compensate for the sense of disappointment I always experienced when traveling around the Rogue Isles.  The zones lack the immersive scale and thrill of places like Steel Canyon and Skyway City.  Hero-side zones are grand, imposing, exciting to be in and move through.  Villain-side zones are... arbitrary filler between mission doors.

[Frostbiter]

I don't play Redside very often. Blueside you feel like a Hero, even at low levels. You may be greener than grass but everybody still respects you as a Hero. Redside I'm a glorified gopher and lackey and it grates on me. Ever since the Villain Archtypes were opened to Blueside I have not been back to Redside.

Edited February 21, 2020 by Frostbiter

[Fan Mail]

Nobody says I want to grow up to be a villain.  But the really good villians know they're actually heroes.  They have a means to an end.  Just because you lack the vision to see it isn't their fault.  

[Gulbasaur]

14 minutes ago, Luminara said:

Dominators and VEATs lack coherence.  They're trying to be all things to all people, and being none well.

I actually disagree here - the VEATs are generally accepted as very good generalists. Three our of four VEAT post-24 builds are basically "what if you got your patron pools fifteen level earlier?". My fortunata is probably the character I feel most powerful on.  Night Widows are the only one that I really think needs looking at, because it has the middling damage but no extra tricks to make up for it - fortunatas have ranged damage and control, crabs are sort of armoured masterminds and banes are basically ranged tanks.

[wolfshadow31]

I don't play it often.  I find the zones pretty depressing.  Well maybe depressing is too strong a word.  I just don't find the outdoor environment very appealing to play in, compared to the hero zones.  The music is a bit off putting to me too.  Navigating Mercy Island can be a bit annoying for new players. -Lots of vertical challenges, and the  elevators etc.  I know you can get the temp travel powers etc, but for new players who may have never played the game on live, it can be frustrating to try to get to the mission doors without knowing all the ins and outs the veterans do. 

 

I also don't feel powerful there, regardless of powers.  Just in general...on hero side...people need your HELP because you can do things and deal with stuff they cannot...but on redside I get the impression that the contacts seem to demand your servitude for tasks they deem beneath them, or for some future favor that never materializes.  

[Luminara]

3 minutes ago, Gulbasaur said:

I actually disagree here - the VEATs are generally accepted as very good generalists.

 

Defenders are what I consider good generalists.

[Leogunner]

Have read these rationalizations, debates and such many a times. It's been a while but to any of my fans (all 0.5 of you) I always come off as a villain side fanboi when in reality I play blue more than red. 

 

My personal perspective is, people have odd unrealistic expectations of red side that they seem oblivious to on blue. For example:

 

The aesthetics. The dark, dirty and Grey redside. There exists some shinier portions of RI such as St Martial or the nature areas of Nerva. I suppose people prefer the visage of a bright city... Which PC fails at too. Each has their charm, I actually enjoy the architecture of RI while PC's buildings feel lifeless and pointless wastes of space that narry a sane person would desire to work out of much less live in. 

 

Or someone was talking about how a lot of elements like a carnival, casino, warehouse dock and forest area in one zone didn't give enough space to flesh out the aesthetics thus making the zone feel samey? That makes absolutely no sense to me. The only way  to please that person is the Starwars method of having an entire zone with only one topographical feature like "crater zone", "junked up buildings zone", "Island zone" and "ghost zone". Nothing wrong with that, but it's not a necessary. 

 

Then there's the whole "lackey" persona. Sometimes I think people use this defense because they lack imagination and just want to blame the writing instead. Even if you are treated as a lackey, whose to say you are actively choosing to stay a lackey...or mind being a lackey to begin with. People get in their heads they are Dr. Doom when in reality you are in Dr. Doom's country and very little leverage to usurp him. There are plenty types of villains out there but everyone is staunchly digging their heels in and won't participate unless they can be the Dr. Doom. 

Edited February 21, 2020 by Leogunner

[Doc_Scorpion]

30 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

Even if you are treated as a lackey, whose to say you are actively choosing to stay a lackey...or mind being a lackey to begin with.

o.0  The player is the person to say that - only they're  not given the choice.  They're forced into the role.  There's only one kind of villain in the Rogue Isles - and that's a lackey.
 

 

33 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

I always come off as a villain side fanboi when in reality I play blue more than red. 

0.o  The question isn't where you play, it's what you say and how you act.

[Leogunner]

15 minutes ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

o.0  The player is the person to say that - only they're  not given the choice.  They're forced into the role.  There's only one kind of villain in the Rogue Isles - and that's a lackey.
 

 

0.o  The question isn't where you play, it's what you say and how you act.

See Dr. Doom portion. Everyone can't be Dr. Doom ruling Latveria nor can the story conform to each individual person's personal imagined plots. Blueside doesn't either give you an option of being a specific type of hero. 

 

Like i said, it's only this bizarre leap in expectations shone on redside when in reality, the games limitations are set. 

Edited February 21, 2020 by Leogunner

[Frostbiter]

You forget that this is a role-playing video game. None of us are Doctor Doom but we don't need to be forced to be Henchman B. The writing forces you to take part in someone else's story, not be the mover and shaker of your own. IE:  you are placed in the role of protagonists hired help, not protagonist.

Edited February 21, 2020 by Frostbiter

[Doc_Scorpion]

17 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

See Dr. Doom portion. Everyone can't be Dr. Doom ruling Latveria nor can the story conform to each individual person's personal imagined plots.

Strawman that fails to address the point.  Nobody is necessarily asking to be Dr. Doom, nor asking to conform to every possible imagined plot.  They're asking not to be forced in the role of lackey.  The only option you offer if for them to be forced to choose which kind of lackey they're going to be - which misses the point entirely.
 

20 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

Blueside doesn't either give you an option of being a specific type of hero. 

Irrelevant.  The key takeaway is the the blueside storyline doesn't force you into a narrow and subservient role.  The writing allows for any number of possibilities even if it doesn't allow for all possibilities.

The problem here isn't some "bizarre leap in expectations", it's that there's a fundamental difference between blueside and redside story lines.

 

[Leogunner]

7 minutes ago, Frostbiter said:

You forget that this is a role-playing video game. None of us are Doctor Doom but we don't need to be forced to be Henchman B. The writing forces you to take part in someone else's story, not be the mover and shaker of your own. IE:  you are placed in the role of protagonists hired help, not protagonist.

And you generalize to make it sound like you are among the many henchmen under a person's employ. No, the writings are made to sound as if you are a participant in a scenario, not just a henchmen in an army of other henchmen. 

[Frostbiter]

It's writing and interpretations are subjective. I've given my opinion. I refuse to defend it because I don't have to. Good day.