Weekly Discussion 39: Incarnate Powers!

[Parabola]

If I could make only one change to the incarnate system it would be to remove the level shift during normal content (or possibly altogether). As it stands the system gifts the player a huge amount more power at the same time as stripping the world of challenge. To me this is ultimately unsatisfying.

 

If I could make more sweeping changes Judgement and Lore would have to go. They work to homogenise the AT's and were in my opinion terrible design decisions. I would want to replace them with systems that reinforced AT roles and the differences between individual powersets in those AT's rather than giving everyone the same powers to spam. In other words when I'm playing a debuffing defender I want abilities that make me a stronger debuffing defender not access to the same nuke and pet that everyone else on my team is using.

 

The others seem more or less ok. The Alpha slot is the most interesting to me with the scope to use it creatively in builds. It also seems the most integrated of the incarnate powers, sitting naturally with the rest of the game (other than the level shift!). Unfortunately the rest of the incarnate powers feel very much to me like they were tagged on as an afterthought (which of course they pretty much were).

[Dreamboat]

I've got some issues with them thematically, but in terms of pure gameplay I really like the Incarnate powers. It's cool to feel super powerful! That's why Prototype was always better than Infamous

I get the complaint that they make non-Incarnate content too easy, but for me personally (I only have one Incarnate character) I spent 99% of my time prior to level 50 soloing and had no real issue, and now spend the majority of my time in Task Forces where everyone is jacked to the nines build-wise and so there's not much in the way of difficulty there either, so I can't say I've been overly affected by the game becoming even easier. I do agree it's probably not a good thing, but as I say it's not something that bothers me in my own gameplay that much.

Also, in the content that actually does have challenge, the Incarnate powers go a decent way to making a terminal dumbass like me who couldn't build a Lego set, never mind a character, feel like I can hang with people who are actually tough and hit hard. My DPS may not be the greatest in the world, but hey, watch me throw this big lightning bolt at that group of mooks! I'm contributing!

[SeraphimKensai]

New Game + for Incarnates. How cool would it get to be to go back and do lowbies task forces/strike forces/trials tuned up for a team of Incarnates.

 

It'd be a substantial amount of work, as people would have to bring lowbie NPC groups up to incarnate content by giving them new powers and scaling their lvl up to 54 and the difficulty slider could give them the +1-4 level boost on that. That way the highest level a mob could be fought at would be the equivalent of lvl 58, which is 1 level lower than Tyrant in MoM.

 

Could have new badges, with a +# on them for which level you've cleared, so if you did a Incarnate Synapse +2, you'd get Incarnate: Synapse's Cohort with a +2 on it, if you did a higher level the +2 would change to whatever level you cleared up to +4.

 

It would essentially use existing content as a means to build off of for more end game content for our heroes/villains.

 

Doing that would allow more use of our incarnate abilities.

[Shred Monkey]

OK... so in the beginning I have to confess, I hated incarnate powers.  I felt like it blurred the lines between ATs and roles too much.  It gave Blasters status protection, it gave tanks healing, it gave everyone a nuke!  I was afraid it would make such a huge impact that it would negate some ATs completely by giving other people access to their niche skill set.  

 

I since have decided that was an over reaction and that the incarnate powers don't actually do as much as I originally thought they would.  By far the most powerful one is the alpha slot, and much of its power is from the level shift and not the enhancement itself.  The others are actually pretty minor in their boosts. 

 

I think the destiny slot is the best balanced power slot.  It has become a swiss army knife for me.  Most of my toons have 3-4 tier 4 destinies built to use in different situations (note: most of these situations involve iTrial badging).  I like that about the slot.  I wish other slots had this type of utility.  Most of the other slots only have 1 or 2 *BEST* options so these should be looked at for balancing purposes.   The interface slot is just broken.  It barely does anything.  I'm pretty sure it literally is broken and not working as intended.

 

[oldskool]

37 minutes ago, Dreamboat said:

I've got some issues with them thematically, but in terms of pure gameplay I really like the Incarnate powers. It's cool to feel super powerful!

 

Agreed. 

37 minutes ago, Dreamboat said:

That's why Prototype was always better than Infamous

 

I really enjoyed both.  Are you in my Steam library?  Get out!

[Ruin Mage]

I think the Incarnate system is fine where its at. People are missing a few points about why Longbow/BP are so strong, and the trivialization of content was by Paragon Studio's design. Incarnates are easier to get by SCORE/HC's design.

The only thing Lore is missing is more theme choices - IMO.
The only thing Judgement is "missing" is more elemental choices - IMO
 

Edited February 24, 2020 by Shadeknight

[VileTerror]

Ship has sailed.  Cat's out of the bag.  Horses are out of the barn.  Ice cream is a puddle.  Whichever turn of phrase you want to slap on it . . . 

I have an idea, but I think it's too late to implement it, so it's not necessarily a "serious" idea . . . but hear me out anyway?

 

Incarnate Powers should require a resource to use.

 

You collect that resource performing various activities, with some activities giving greater returns by posing greater challenges.

And then you use up this resource to activate and/or maintain the Incarnate Powers.

 

From a gameplay standpoint; yeah, it's a hassle.  But it would make the Incarnate stuff feel more -special-.  Not just something you unlocked, but something you have to actively manage and choose to use.  Like the Shivan Shards or the Warburg Nukes, albeit with no cap, or an EXTREMELY HIGH cap on that resource AND you can go to multiple sources to collect it, rather than just one place.

 

I know.  I know.  It's not going to be a popular idea, nor one which I honestly think should be retroactively applied to existing Incarnate Powers.

 

 

 

 . . . but maybe we should consider it for future content?

[VileTerror]

SORRY FOR THE DOUBLE POST!

Literally, the idea hit me just as soon as I sat back down to eat my dinner . . . 

 

Combine my previous two posts in this thread together!

https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/15693-weekly-discussion-39-incarnate-powers/?tab=comments#comment-167350

https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/15693-weekly-discussion-39-incarnate-powers/page/2/?tab=comments#comment-168352

 

The Anti-Incarnate Content!  Make -that- a limited resource! 

Yes!  Yes, that's the way to do it!  

God-killer ammunition!  Bullets so dense they can penetrate an Incarnate's hide.

Psychic-blank serum!  Undermine the Aura of Belief generated by the civilians which empowers the Incarnates.

Teleport network linked to orbital mass driver!  Launch that pesky Flame of Prometheus in to a black hole.

 

That's the ticket!

[Ukase]

Time is our most precious resource. I can accumulate money, but I can't accumulate time. (unless I'm in prison, I guess)

So, I like to get things done sooner, rather than later. So, Ageless is my favorite because it helps me get things done sooner. 

Rebirth, Barrier - these two are nice - but mostly situational. I tend to use these for the benefit of those in the league/team, not myself. 

 

Clarion is a nice crutch, useful for Underground trial and MSRs. But in typical tfs/missions - I never use it. Fortunately, we have the option to make them all.
 

Incandescence has really only one use - shard tfs. Other than that, I can't fathom why anyone would waste more than 60 threads on it. 

Interface is ...well, what needs to be tweaked is being able to see the damage or debuff it does. I check my combat logs and I see "Interface hits Tyrant for .00005% Toxic damage", but I honestly have no way of knowing if it actually does anything unless I check there. I can see my ATO proc work. I can see the Panacea work. But I can't tell that interface does anything outside of the combat log. 

Hybrid - I can at least see in Combat Attributes that it does something, but this should be an auto power, not a toggle. We have enough buttons to mash already. 

Judgement  - Who can complain about a nuke? 

As far as future incarnate powers - if we get them, I am hopeful that the diminishing returns of Emp merits and threads are adjusted accordingly.  

Before we get more incarnate powers, it would be helpful to have a reason to use them. I know that a lot of people find this game "too hard" and some find it "too easy". We have a difficulty slider, but when you're +3, and the mobs are set to +4, they're really only +1. So that should maybe be addressed first. 

Edited February 25, 2020 by Ukase
Mistake

[Neiska]

I only have two complaints about the incarnate system,

 

1. I wish there were more options for "pet" powers, as it is only a few powers seem to affect pets from masterminds, crabbers, controllers, etc. Namely the support hybrid. It would be nice if the other slots had similar powers for pet lovers, just to open some options for builds because if you use a pet focused build on various ATs, you are more or less pigeon holed into certain incarnates.

 

2. Threads. Really wish these were tradeable. Not to other players necessarially, because that could do gawd knows what to the market, but just among your own account. Just always get a bummed out feeling knowing theres 800 or more threads on a character you have zero desire to play any more, and they are just sitting there.

 

For a new detailed breakdown, just how I view the incarnates myself and what I have experienced, along with suggestions/ideas for possible fixes or updates. -

 

1. Alpha - this slot is good, because it allows you to plug holes that you otherwise couldn't or allow you to focus/specalize into something.

 

The goods -Agility, Cardiac, Musclature - I would guess that 90% of the builds out there use one of these 3. Either for more damage, more defense, or more END management.

 

The bads - Intuition, Nerve, Resilient, Spiritual, Vigor - I have never seen a build that recommended these, either they arent good enough to consider, or nearly everyone needs +defense, END, or more damage, which is something the 3 above handle. So unless you are specalizing in a role like healing, I cant really see anyone taking these other alphas. If you wanted to open other options, make them have more critical values people cant build for such as recharge, resistance, or accuracy.   

 

*fixes* - Mabye have the rarely used ones add a dash of defense, or damage. Not as much as the other 3, but just "enough" to make the bads more attractive choices?

-------------------------------

2. Judgement - gives everyone an AOE damage power.

The goods - Ion - everyone I have ever seen use a judgement power, always uses Ion, simply because its the most targets struck, and a good damage source.

 

The bads - Everything else. I don't think I have yet to see any other Judgement power used. I took Void once just for rp flavor, but more than 1 person remarked on how it was a bad choice. Though I have always wondered how much of an effect picking a different damge type on a build with heavy -res debuffs would make, such as Pyronic on a -fire res build, or if the extra 8 targets from Ion would still come out superior.

 

*fixes* - Maybe make all the targets struck more even, or even change them. Some builds dont need more AOE, they need huge single target boss killers. Ive played builds i would have leaped at the chance to change an unneeded AOE for a good anti AV/Boss ability if it hit them hard enough.

--------------------------------

3. Interface - the onhit debuff/dot effect.

 

The goods - Degenerative, Reactive - similar to alpha, I hear everyone takes one of these two powers, mainly degenerative. 

 

The bads - Everything else. The effects are so short lived or random they simply arent worth using when you can just increase your overal net damage or take off chunks of their hitpoints.

 

*fixes* - you might consider making some Interfaces proc buffs instead of debuffs? Such as a chance to proc a +recovery, regenerate, or a small heal? Many builds would rather have a chance for a small helpful buff than an unneeded debuff, which might open build variety?

--------------------------------

4. Lore - the pets.

 

The goods/bads - really it seems to come down to personal preferance here. I have never heard of a lore pet choice making or breaking a build. I have had mixed results with them. So aside from flavor or rp choice, the differences doesnt seem to matter or have as much of an impact as others. I do know there are top dps lore pets and so on, but everyone I have spoken too has picked based on flavor more than the actual lore pet stats.

 

*fixes* - perhaps more varied pets? Make the differences in choice stand out more. Make the defensive pets have more of an impact, Make the offensive pets do more "oomph". However as mentioned before I really wish that dedicated "pet" classes had a bonus to lore pets, as it does sort of give everyone a bit of their gimick. Even if it was a reduced cooldown for lore pet activtions, a "head nod" to pet classes would be a welcome sight to see.

--------------------------------

5. Destiny - the OP slot. Overall I think (with alpha) are the two stongest slots, becuase its more or less the ultimate plug for holes in any build or AT.

 

The goods - Lacking heals? Take Rebirth. Need defensive cooldown? Take Barrier. Getting hit with CC effects? Clarion. Endurance issues? Ageless.

 

The Bads - I have never seen or hear of anyone taking Incandescence, which is a shame because it acutally looks interesting. But I cant recall ever having a desperiate need to create a sudden "safe zone" to recover, because any time you would really need such a thing then the stun or knockdown simply wouldnt work such as AVs or Monsters, which makes the power moot. Against normal Bosses/Elite bosses, usually the fight is already well in hand before such a power would be needed.

 

*fixes* - overall aside from Incandescence, all of them are good and worth taking.  As far as Incandescence.. No idea. It just looks too situational to be of use to the majority of builds.

------------------------------

6. Hybrid - the good slot. Overall, I think Hybrid is actually pretty well balanced, depending on which AT you are on.

 

Assualt - This has 2 versions, a version good for both sustained and burst dps.

Control - Never played a CC specalist, but this looks like it would be a godsend to such a build? (Cant really comment on this one.)

Melee - a great ability for hard to damage but no healing builds, such as Widows, /shield ATs, and so on. Its just a good "patch all" for people who need defense or resistance, and recovery.

Support - A godsend to pet lovers everywhere, and just buffer ATs in general. Wish more incarnates overall had the "increased effectiveness for pets" feature.

 

*fixes* personally i think Hybrids are acutally in a good place, with something for everyone be it offensive, defensive, support, sneaker, pet lover, healer, and so on. And i think this might be because there are only 4 powers in total, but they are varied enough to build upon your strengths or plug any gaps and weaknesses. 

 

 

Edited February 25, 2020 by Neiska

[Without_Pause]

"Hello Mr. Boomstick. I see you have come to obtain the powers of a god."

 

"Yes, I have for I have helped save Paragon over and over again and wish to be granted god like powers so I may further do so against forthcoming threats."

 

"Ah yes. Very noble of you. Let's see here. I now grant you to bring judgement against those who appose you via being able to bring forth extreme amounts of destruction around you."

 

"Well, uh, I'm a blaster so I already have a nuke."

 

"Yes, but now you have two!"

 

"Maybe more defense? A heal. You know, mitigation."

 

"Two nukes! And one from the gods themselves mere mortal."

 

"Yeah actually, instead of two nukes and being a mere mortal how about not so much on the faceplanting while being a blaster with godlike powers?"

 

"Two nukes!"

 

"I'm just a guy with a gun. How do I, uh, now have fire coming out of me?"

 

"By the gods!"

 

[/scene]

 

"Hello Ms Backstabby. I see you have come to obtain the powers of a god."

 

"Cool cool. Yeah, anything to make my life easier 'arresting' the baddies."

 

"I now grant you the ability to summon forth a warwork companion coming from the Paragon's great historical lore as you can now team up and go forth with your tasks at had."

 

"Uh, you know I'm a stalker right? I tend to do a lot of things alone and undetected until it is too late. You know, sneaky sneaky."

 

"Why yes, but now you have someone else to support you and vanquish the evil doers of Paragon as you go about being 'sneaky sneaky.'"

 

"But how is a warwork 'sneaky sneaky?'"

 

"...."

 

[/scene]

[Killerizor]

I'm a big fan of the incarnate system. I love how it allows the character to continue evolving and rising in power. How it can make what was once a difficult task a trivial one. How it feels like that even when you reached 50 and you were at the height of power, you're given the opportunity to gain even more power. Even better... you do it incrementally. You slowly (or maybe fast depending on how much you play) gain these god-level powers. You see how much stronger the character becomes over time. By the end of it you're able to go into a level 50 mission and wipe the floor with whatever stands in your way. You've got alpha to enhance your power. Judgement to nuke the enemies. Interface to passively weaken them. Lore to get some extra help. Destiny to gain some powerful temporary buffs (or perma at T4). Hybrid to buff you further both actively and passively.

 

You become a villain-arresting/hero-killing machine. It's amazing. Honestly with my post, there's not really anything I'd tweak about the current incarnate powers. Maybe interface could use a bit of a buff, but that's it. I do like VileTerror's idea, but maybe not for the incarnate system currently in place. Maybe for a power beyond incarnates though... it would be good to have some type of resource system in mind.

 

I feel like I'd get a bit off topic with what I'd improve as it kind of goes beyond just the incarnate system. To keep it on point though, I think finishing the remainder of the incarnate tree is something I'd really like to see. Then coupling that with more content to challenge our all-powerful fully realized incarnates would be important to add to that. Being able to grow the character is what keeps me interested in the character. Being able to challenge that character is just as important. Unless you're someone who loves creating alts a lot (nothing wrong with that btw), in which case this stuff probably doesn't matter to you.

 

Anyway, I fear I've already kinda went a bit off topic with that. All in all I wouldn't change the current system, only add to it.

[Troo]

Here are some options

1. Simplify the introduction to slotting Incarnates
2. Some higher level content
3. Genesis · Mind · Vitae · Omega
4. Keep Alpha active under level 45
5. Remove all but Alpha from content under 50

 

#1 Simplify the introduction to slotting Incarnates

The additional bonuses and powers are great and how to unlocked the Alpha Slot is good. Slotting Abilities is where is becomes a mess.

Incarnate Shard · Incarnate Thread · Incarnate Components · Enhancement Catalyst · Astral Merit · Empyrean Merit · Notice of the Well · Favor of the Well

Gather, craft, craft another, craft another, convert, break down thing to make things to make things... (how can something so familiar get so jacked up?) 

 

#2 some higher level story content

No explanation needed.

 

#3 Genesis · Mind · Vitae · Omega

Finish what was started. Additional abilities.

 

#4 keep Alpha active under level 45

Sure we have three builds per character at this point. Still, it would be great to at least benefit from the Alpha. There should be some reward for having it.

Besides, the Alpha slot helps the character and is not the same as showing up with a giant monster to mega destroy everything.

 

$5 remove all but Alpha from content under 50

Are Lore, Judgement or others really need to participate in level 49 and below content?

 

Edited February 26, 2020 by Troo

[golstat2003]

I'm fine with the system as is. They should build on top of it including content.

[Coyotedancer]

On 2/24/2020 at 2:16 PM, VileTerror said:

Ship has sailed.  Cat's out of the bag.  Horses are out of the barn.  Ice cream is a puddle.  Whichever turn of phrase you want to slap on it . . . 

I have an idea, but I think it's too late to implement it, so it's not necessarily a "serious" idea . . . but hear me out anyway?

 

Incarnate Powers should require a resource to use.

 

You collect that resource performing various activities, with some activities giving greater returns by posing greater challenges.

And then you use up this resource to activate and/or maintain the Incarnate Powers.

 

From a gameplay standpoint; yeah, it's a hassle.  But it would make the Incarnate stuff feel more -special-.  Not just something you unlocked, but something you have to actively manage and choose to use.  Like the Shivan Shards or the Warburg Nukes, albeit with no cap, or an EXTREMELY HIGH cap on that resource AND you can go to multiple sources to collect it, rather than just one place.

 

I know.  I know.  It's not going to be a popular idea, nor one which I honestly think should be retroactively applied to existing Incarnate Powers.

 

 

 

 . . . but maybe we should consider it for future content?

 

Just what we need! Something else to have to grind/farm!

Yay!

 

( So very, very NOT. <_< )

 

/jranger

 

 

Edited February 26, 2020 by Coyotedancer

[Sakura Tenshi]

Probably my favorite incarnate power is Interface just because as someone who plays a lot of smash/lethal characters it adds a bit of elemental punch and play out having a sword of flames.

 

though interface is honestly something I kind of wish was part of base game and/or separated between damage type and effects so you have more freedom to make a lightning sword or turn martial arts/street justice into Hamon.

 

edit: I have more thoughts but just wanted to get this in before thread lock as this is my biggest thing.

Edited February 26, 2020 by Sakura Tenshi

[GM Tock]

If a Genesis slot is considered, I only want it to have abilities named after Genesis songs.

 

Finally, we'll get to know what power the word "Abacab" holds!

 

(P.S.: I have no role developing anything on Homecoming. The last program I wrote was to entertain bored people in IRC with a dice rolling app.)

Edited February 27, 2020 by GM_Tahquitz

[Lazarillo]

27 minutes ago, GM_Tahquitz said:

If a Genesis slot is considered, I only want it to have abilities named after Genesis songs.

That'd require whole new models programmed.  Sure we have dogs and cats, but do you think the resources are there to program a lamb that could lie down on Broadway?

[GM Tock]

11 hours ago, Lazarillo said:

That'd require whole new models programmed.  Sure we have dogs and cats, but do you think the resources are there to program a lamb that could lie down on Broadway?

I was asking if it could be done Tonight, Tonight, Tonight, but sadly, I got No Reply At All.

 

(I'll show myself out.  Back to the weekly discussion!)

Edited February 27, 2020 by GM_Tahquitz

[Rathulfr]

3 minutes ago, GM_Tahquitz said:

I was asking if it could be done Tonight, Tonight, Tonight, but sadly, I got No Reply At All.

Is anybody listening?

 

[Sakura Tenshi]

Now, time to shove my own unasked for opinion on the future of incarnate powers: To be blunt off the bat, I know Black Scorpion had mentioned what ideas they had planned, but I honestly didn't care of them. That said, my own ideas are probably much worse if only because they'd be harder to implement mechanically, but the two big ones I have are...

 

Genesis - If Hybrid was about your character branching out, Genesis should be an incarnate slot about focusing back in on the core of your AT (see? really difficult because I just proposed about a dozen at least with a need for eventual growth, even assuming some can be rolled together like stalker and scrapper). But to give an idea, scrapper core path would be about either increasing your chances to crit, while radial could be about upping the crit damage, but both also change the critical portion of their damage from a matching type to the powerset, to a special damage bypassing resistances. Something to that effect.

 

Omega - This one I had a much clearer idea on, but also is probably even more elaborate: on it's own, Omega is 'useless', what the omega slot is supposed to be is an augment to previous Incarnate powers, giving you a closer glimpse of the power you felt in the Mender Ramiel memory, with a theme naming would be based on deities. So "Omega-Alpha" slots would be Jehovah (you know, 'the alpha and the omega') and the core path would allow you to reap to double the value of your current alpha slot, while the Radial path would allow you to 'link' up the benefits of another tier-3 or less Alpha enhancement have active effects alongside your existing one, regardless of your choice, the benefits of the Alpha slot now all but ignore ED diminishing returns. The Rama Slot would relate to Judgement (based on the myth of Rama's arrows being described as hitting like a nuclear bomb (eerily before atomic bombs were a known thing)) and the core path would boost the maximum target cap and AoE side of your existing alpha and allow it to no longer need line of sight letting you hit through walls, even enabling some of the benefits of the unchosen branch of your slotted Alpha tree (so core void now also debuffs damage), the radial path though changes your Judgement into a Meteor Shower, over ten seconds in a wide area dropping a series of ethereal meteors that floor lesser foes instantly for massive Smash/Fire/Energy damage and topped off with a single giant meteor crashing into the ground leaving even non-incarnate AVs feeling the pain. Basically, really grandious stuff like that, possibly have it be on a timed toggle like Hybrid.

[Sidious]

will we ever get the other Incarnate slots unlocked? 

[VileTerror]

So, remember that thing the ol' Legacy Devs used to do, Sidious?

"Soon!™"

 

On Homecoming, it's more like:

"Eventually?®"

[Sidious]

1 hour ago, VileTerror said:

So, remember that thing the ol' Legacy Devs used to do, Sidious?

"Soon!™"

 

On Homecoming, it's more like:

"Eventually?®"

Yeah it's kinda what I figured, but figured it was the time and place to ask.

[tidge]

I appreciate the incarnate system as is, because it gives just about every toon the tools necessary to run XTREME CONTENT. I rather enjoy running 50 (and 50+) content at x8 for merits, drops, catharsis, etc. Judgement and Lore really help out the DPS issues with several builds.

 

Lately I've been playing with different Incarnate choices just for kicks. One of the new (to me) choices has been alpha: vigor and destiny: rebirth... Along with pets (lore or otherwise) the healing badges have been rolling in.

 

I encourage folks to step out of their comfort zone in the incarnate space.