Weekly Discussion 39: Incarnate Powers!

[GM Miss]

Weekly discussion 39 Week 2/23/20-2/29/20:

⚔️ YOU VOTED: It's time for Incarnate Powers! ⚔️

 

❓ Things to think about:

>What Incarnates are your favorite/least favorite?

>What Incarnates could use tweaks to their numbers?

>Are there any that are over/underpowered?

>What Incarnates would you like to see in the future? (Just like the Epic Pool Powers - if there are any well thought out sets I will add them to the discussion with your name attached!  😄

Don't just use these prompts, talk about anything Incarnate Powers!

 

Let's Chat 😄

Edited February 22, 2020 by GM Miss

[Bopper]

Other than Alpha, I could do without all of them. But I'm just a hater.

[Troo]

Oh that's a swing going from brutes to the convoluted hot mess that is Incarnates..

 

 

 

Edited February 23, 2020 by Troo

[Seigmoraig]

Alpha, Destiny and Judgement slots are all great.

Alpha is like a 7th slot for your powers

Judgement is a super sized nuke which i like to use a lot.

Destiny is either a "I need this to be able to function and I can never do exemplar content" skill with Ageless, or just an "oh shit" button with Barrier and Clarion (which is super nice for the squishies)

 

The rest of the incarnate slots are very mediocre imo

Interface is a tiny proc that is fairly forgettable, I usually slot it because I can and it doesn't cost much since I usually have threads laying around once I'm done with the other slots.

Lore is also largely forgettable, however having that big Longbow (I think) Robot on call is fun to watch. Mostly invested for level shift than anything else.

Hybrid is decent, but nothing particularly exciting, just a button I need to toggle back on every once in a while. Good thing it has a passive component because I forget to toggle it back on a lot.

 

All in all I like the Incarnate system. I like having the level shifts, I like the 3 "good" slots. No clue what could be done to spruce up the 3 "boring" slots but I don't feel it's that needed since the 3 "good" slots are REALLY good and easily carry the whole system

Edited February 22, 2020 by Seigmoraig

[Mikewho]

The ship may have sailed on implementing substantial changes without making people unhappy, but if I could magically make everyone forget what they had, this is what I would suggest:

 

Alpha: Make the level shift incarnate only. It made normal content too easy. Fine otherwise.

Destiny: Tone down the numbers on Barrier. Fine otherwise.

Lore: Some outliers need to be way toned down, like BP and Longbow. Currently Lore out damage most players, which shouldn’t be the case.

Hybrid: remove the active component but leave the passive (maybe small buff to the passive)

Interface: perfect as is

Judgement: perfect as is. Maybe make some of the less popular ones a little more attractive

 

[VileTerror]

I'd like to see Anti-Incarnate content.

Down with the Well!  Strip the "gods" of their power!  Strike out against the Super Ego Made Manifest!

 

And I'm serious.  I would like to see post-50 content in the form of actively undermining and depowering Incarnates through various means, while the player character progresses down a path which is mutually exclusive with Incarnate Levels (but, of course, offer players the option to toggle which "side" they're on, so no player is actually left out).

I've heard a lot of roleplayers express interest in something like this. 

[Coyotedancer]

I'd like to see a few obvious-but-missing Lore options added... Circle Mages as a counterpoint to the Circle Demons we already have, Syndicate, PPD (Primal or Praetorian), Tuatha, Animus Arcana, Black Knights… FREAKS!! (Seriously. Why do we not have Freaks? I want side-kick Freaks dammit. XD)

 

And as an aside, as someone who spends the majority of their time running solo... I don't think the iPowers in general are "overpowered" or "make the game TOO EASY!1!1!0ne!" for that particular play-style.

 

On a tricked-out 8-player team? Yeah. I can see where people are coming from there. 

Especially if you're running at base difficulty and face-rolling Council. 

 

But for someone running at a higher setting on their own? Those iToys make some things not only possible but also good fun that just wouldn't be otherwise. I know that first-hand. I was out there running mostly-solo when we didn't have Incarnates.  I remember some of the "brick walls" very clearly and it's nice to have ways to get over/around/through them now.

 

 

Edited February 23, 2020 by Coyotedancer

[Sovera]

Incarnates are fine as long as people can only pick one (all ought to give a level shift though). But only one incarnate would be balanced. Big nuke, or Barrier's panic button, or Ageless for Recovery, or extra damage from Musculature.

 

The sharing is also not a good thing on the long run. At most 50%, but probably just no.

Edited February 22, 2020 by Sovera

[tremor3258]

I'm fond of things that 'push' the powers like interface or alpha but MAN Judgement can be satisfying to pull out. 

 

Wouldn't change - if one got added, we've got buff, nuke, proc, summon, so I guess some sort of control super-power would be next, so maybe it's good they stopped.

[Lazarillo]

Incarnates are weird little conundrum.  You don't want to trivialize content, but at the same time, it should feel like a danged good return on investment and we shouldn't be seeing everyone and their brother getting "the power of the gods", or what have you.  I don't think anything that's currently part of the system should be removed, but I definitely don't think it should be expanded without a very, very, very clear plan of how it's going to be applied and what will be the content it's designed for.  The only category I could maybe dig some expansion of is Lore, but that's already pretty...varied.

 

It might be interesting to add a "No Incarnate Powers" limitation to Ouroboros/Task Forces, and make the various "Master of..." badges require that box be checked, too.  Of course, I say that as someone who doesn't do the classic "Master of..." badges on principle anyway and thinks those should all be overhauled, so my take probably doesn't count for much.

 

As for which slots I like, I tend to prefer things that always benefit me.  So Alpha, of course, is the nicest, Destiny can be if/when I can get the right high tier stuff, and Interface and Hybrid are both just things I see as small passive buffs (I do toggle my Hybrids on fairly regularly, but honestly, I can't tell the difference when I use them most of the time).  Judgment is fun, but mostly just a gimmick due to the extra-long Recharge, and Lore, well, it's highly specialized but again, too limited to be something I really think about when I'm tweaking my characters.  Plus, my OCD/anal retentiveness dislikes only being able to summon generic minions, but they have to be two different ones.

[Snarky]

I really enjoy the incarnate system. It is one if the only reasons i run high level content.  I like being on a character who can bring a crapton of power to a team. If i am one of the only two incarnates running in 8 person team i know my teammates appreciate it.  If there are 8 of us who are incarnated and i/o’d it takes ROFLSTOMP to the next level. There is a competition to clean a spawn with style.  
 

this power is “free” but it also takes some time investment. So not completely free.  You either need to know how to build or know how to find a good build. You need to gather all the parts of the build through grinding marketeering or crafting. You need to 50 and incarnate grind.  Then, and only then, can you walk up to a regular content 50 spawn and give that particularly satisfying whooomph which makes them all disappear. Then blending that toon with a team so everyone is working together on the same goals and it is the finest

 

i will be the first to admit i get lost, i get scrapperlock, i think we are clearing on speed runs or think we are stealthing a mission on a clear all. So, even with all that power i still only do what i am supposed to about 2/3 of the time lol. 
 

i enjoy the system the way it is. I have never loved pets but i try to get my Lore pets out at least sometimes. Took me a while to get used to using Hybrid as well. Pets and click powers are either things that come natural or not. I am firmly in the camp of wanting a constant small buff rather than an all or nothing. If i could take SS/Invul and smooth SS the way Invul was smoothed into Willpower, then choose all powers to do that style of constant i would.  Anathema to the giant power for a tiny amount of time that is the standard game design but that is just me (and a few others)

 

i would love to see more incarnate powers. I know those were originally going to be rolled out along with content that could challenge players running such incarnated beasts. 
 

i would love to see an incarnate tree that gave upgraded Travel Powers, extra Enhancer slots (builders gone wild!) or a power set that was built by Player to define the character concept more. (Which we already have a wealth of). Maybe even a second Alpha slot. The Beta. For when one extremely crazy powerful buff is just not enough lol. Just allow all same chiices from Alpha excluding the Alpha chosen and go mad dog on Lord Recluse

 

 

[Zenex]

Least favorite, any lore pet which has a toggle buff i.e. drones. Constantly turns it on and off, which is pretty infuriating and how long it can take to switch them out sometimes.

 

Outside of that I think it would be nice to see more content geared toward incarnate leveled action or a way to maybe add (+1,2,3,) for certain flagged AV's or something to existing content 

[Zepp]

Fine as they are:

Alpha: This is the plug the hole in my build go-to power.

Judgement: An extra alpha attack, nice, but not overpowering.

Interface:  A passive proc that can either fill a gap or lean into your character's strengths.

Hybrid: A toggle that can fill a gap or lean into your character's strengths.

 

Need a rework:

Lore: An OP pet that makes most toons into Masterminds. Needs more choices, better balancing of choices, and an overall nerf.

Destiny: An OP click buff that becomes pointless after 30s; like Armor T9s, this leads to an inconsistent playing experience and could be done better. ie, decreasing the initial buff but making it meaningful for the entire 120s.

 

 

[DougGraves]

I find that incarnate powers ruin the game.  When I am on a team and I see "judgement" go off, I leave the team after that mission.  I do not play on PI teams because the game is just stupid at that point.

[Mansome]

Since the power has made us too powerful, rather than change the powers lets change the content. I propose they make incarnate level versions of all the TF/SFs. The rewards would be the same merits or an incarnate component. I would love to see incarnate TF that had the CoT. At level 50 these guys are already a joke to fight so new TF would give these guys some teeth finally to put the same level of fear we had doing the Posi TF getting swarmed by all those debuffs at level 8.

[Dazl]

Not sure if there needs to be any major changes to the incarnate system, and it probably wouldn't go over well since the horse is already out of the barn. What we could use is more content geared to challenge incarnates. I don't mean more trials, but maybe a neutral zone for incarnates only, with story arcs and door missions with higher difficulties. I can run door missions in PI with my incarnates at +4/8 solo with no problem. While it is fun considering the effort it takes to get you there, but we really do need more content for incarnates.  

[Abraxus]

I have always felt like the Incarnate System does exactly what it was originally intended to do.  After fighting, and struggling through your journey as a hero, or villain (or whatever between), you are allowed (not forced) to take the next step, and achieve incredible levels of powers to deal with threats that required it.  Now, if there is anything missing, it is just more content to challenge a team that are all endowed with these powers.  I'm sure there were plans to do just that, but the announcement for the end of the game came before it could come to fruition.  Now, we are left with 6 of the 10 powers, and a limited amount of content where it is perhaps not required, but certainly can make the crucial difference in victory, or defeat. 

 

I use the system to augment builds, and to feel like a true super powered being, which I consider the natural evolution of someone in a world like that.  I feel it definitely has a place in the game, and for those that don't like it, as with everything else, it's totally optional.  I don't feel the need to change the system, but rather to develop more end-game content to push things towards the Incarnate content originally envisioned.  Complete the last 4 sets, and content to go with it, and I'll be quite happy.

Edited February 23, 2020 by Abraxus

[Obus Form]

I mainly play scrappers/brutes/corrupters so this is from that POV.

 

 

Alpha:

 

While the Alpha is generally understood as a gap filler (endurance, recharge, resists, defence, etc), IMO the alpha is oddly powered in that it buffs things usually not as required by the gap it is filling.  

 

Because α buffs a percentage of the already existing values, the thing α buffs (defence, resist, etc) that gets the most benefit from α is usually not something that archetype or build needs to fill.  At the same time, the player usually selects an α (defence, resist, recharge, etc) to fill in gaps.  Because those gap things are usually lower in value, the buff from α is usually quite marginal.

 

I'm unsure if this was intentional to force α being a small buff but it just seemed odd.  For example, a Super Reflexesor or cold tank needing resist would want cardiac α for +resist, but having innately low resists, α fails to fill that hole.

[DR_Mechano]

5 hours ago, Zepp said:

Destiny: An OP click buff that becomes pointless after 30s; like Armor T9s, this leads to an inconsistent playing experience and could be done better. ie, decreasing the initial buff but making it meaningful for the entire 120s.

Actually you'll find most high End builds will run Ageless, Barrier or Clarion because once you hit T4 they're perma AND give decent bonuses even at their lowest point. T4 Ageless basically means you never have to worry about endurance again and provides enough recharge to push some builds into perma-hasten territory (TW/Bio builds tend to run it for this exact reason).

 

Barrier offers you 5% defense even at its lowest point, which means that builds can stop at getting 40% defense and then concentrate on other things.

 

Clarion provides status protection and even when its at its lowest it still provides enough for day to day non-incarnate content so you're not worried about getting mezzed on say a Defender.

 

So yeah Ageless, Barrier and Clarion basically do fine, it's the others that provide bonuses which are a little less...interesting...that are generally things nobody cares about. Incandescence is useful for pretty much one fight in the whole game and not a lot else.

 

As for the above post by @Obus Form about the Alpha being a gap filler...that's actually not true. The Alpha, in high end builds, is meant to be an enhancer. This is why high end damage builds will run Musculature for moar damage since with IOs their defenses are finished and with Ageless they nolonger have to worry about Endurance gain and get benefits of +recharge.

Edited February 23, 2020 by DR_Mechano

[Clave Dark 5]

20 hours ago, Coyotedancer said:

I'd like to see a few obvious-but-missing Lore options added... Circle Mages as a counterpoint to the Circle Demons we already have, Syndicate, PPD (Primal or Praetorian), Tuatha, Animus Arcana, Black Knights… FREAKS!! (Seriously. Why do we not have Freaks? I want side-kick Freaks dammit. XD)

I'd love to have some Mercy Island Snakes for Lore pets.  And the Fir Bolg.  Really, any so-far-not-represented factions should have a place there.  And yes, like Illusion, maybe some decoy copies of the player themselves as well.

[iBot]

My $0.02 for what it is worth:

 

1. Alpha:  Pick a buff that compliments your character or fills in some needed buffing for your slotted powers.  No real choice here.  I would like to see it tweaked so that there are more of them with less overlapping buffs.  A few of them buff 6 different things and then a few buff only 3.  I would much prefer a system that allows us to unlock the "Alpha slots" meaning we get 6 free slots to put whatever IOs in we choose and those are the buffs applied to our powers.  Higher level "Alphas" can just grant a +1 - +4 just like boosting an IO does now.  These slots therefore would not allow boosted IOs nor sets.
2. Judgement:  I get it that types other than blasters like to have a massive spawn killing nuke but it kinda negates one of the things blasters (or any AT with a nice PBAoE power) bring to the team.  Maybe add some cost for using this power like the old nuke crashes that were imposed on blasters during Live.
3. Interface:  I liked the idea of this power however the percentages are so small the honestly I've not noticed how much it actually adds to the build.  This should be more pronounced but maybe with limited stacking or needed to be stacked from multiple sources.
4. Destiny:  Nice buff once in a while but again this also negates some of what defenders/controllers/dominators/corruptors brought to the table for a team.  Makes soloing certain high level content easier but that is about it.  Needs longer up time.
5. Lore:  Great more pets we can't control.  Is nice to be able to choose from a wide variety but doesn't really add much to the player's character other than for well lore reasons.
6. Hybrid: A toggle that improves what your character already does well.  Again no real choice here.  Pick the one that matches your AT and forget about it.  Toggle it once in a while when you remember and it is down.  Can't say I see much difference when it is on versus when it is off.

Beyond the 6 in game I would like to see the ones that were planned but never implemented added to the game.  I also second the idea of giving us more incarnate content.  It is very cool to have these powers but there is precious little content that allows us to take full advantage of them.  I would enjoy greatly the ability to run the original TFs/SFs at incarnate level with buffed enemies to match.  That would go a long way I think.

[DR_Mechano]

7 minutes ago, iBot said:

My $0.02 for what it is worth:

1. Destiny:  Nice buff once in a while but again this also negates some of what defenders/controllers/dominators/corruptors brought to the table for a team.  Makes soloing certain high level content easier but that is about it.  Needs longer up time.
2. Lore:  Great more pets we can't control.  Is nice to be able to choose from a wide variety but doesn't really add much to the player's character other than for well lore reasons.

1) As mentioned Destiny is a game changer on a lot of builds. Ageless allows things like Spines/Fire, TW/Bio and numerous others to not have to worry about endurance anymore AND perma-hasten offering +7.5% recharge even at its lowest point (that's an extra LotG Unique basically). Barrier provides 5% def to all at its lowest point which is more than the +3% given by any of the unique IOs that offer defense. Clarion provides enough status protection to deal with most day to day problems.

 

I honestly get the feeling people are stopping at the rare Destiny and going 'that's enough' and not actually looking at the tier 4 versions which are MUCH better and last 120 seconds and recharge in 120 seconds. They're perma out the box.

 

2) Lore pets can add a LOT to a character, again it feels like you just haven't looked at the abilities some of them get. The Carnie invulnerable pet offers a +15% damage boost for 5 minutes (it lasts 1 minute but it recharges quicker than the duration, thus they will always keep it up on you). Longbow Cataphract offers a massive -250% regen which is a huge boon to soloing AVs or GMs on a set that doesn't have inherent -regen. The Banished Pantheon Ravager puts out enough DPS to help burn through most targets very quickly.

 

Banished Pantheon, Carnies and Tsoo offer enough DPS to make AV soloing much easier especially once they're at very rare stage. 

 

Again I feel like a lot of people just stop at the rare or merely surface glance at the Incarnate system without actually getting deeper in to it.

Edited February 23, 2020 by DR_Mechano

[iBot]

2 hours ago, DR_Mechano said:

1) As mentioned Destiny is a game changer on a lot of builds. Ageless allows things like Spines/Fire, TW/Bio and numerous others to not have to worry about endurance anymore AND perma-hasten offering +7.5% recharge even at its lowest point (that's an extra LotG Unique basically). Barrier provides 5% def to all at its lowest point which is more than the +3% given by any of the unique IOs that offer defense. Clarion provides enough status protection to deal with most day to day problems.

 

I honestly get the feeling people are stopping at the rare Destiny and going 'that's enough' and not actually looking at the tier 4 versions which are MUCH better and last 120 seconds and recharge in 120 seconds. They're perma out the box.

 

2) Lore pets can add a LOT to a character, again it feels like you just haven't looked at the abilities some of them get. The Carnie invulnerable pet offers a +15% damage boost for 5 minutes (it lasts 1 minute but it recharges quicker than the duration, thus they will always keep it up on you). Longbow Cataphract offers a massive -250% regen which is a huge boon to soloing AVs or GMs on a set that doesn't have inherent -regen. The Banished Pantheon Ravager puts out enough DPS to help burn through most targets very quickly.

 

Banished Pantheon, Carnies and Tsoo offer enough DPS to make AV soloing much easier especially once they're at very rare stage. 

 

Again I feel like a lot of people just stop at the rare or merely surface glance at the Incarnate system without actually getting deeper in to it.

I have only 2 characters that are fully T4 in every slot.  Then again I only have 9 characters total so I agree with your analysis that I do not dig too far into the top tiers.  I agree destiny allows a good number of builds to be viable but there in is the crux of my problem with it.  Prior to getting Clarion on my blaster I would never have considered soloing any content with a mezzer in the mix.  I needed to find myself a reliable support type that could keep me from falling asleep on the job or being perma held.  But with Clarion that is no longer necessary unless I intend to exemplar (which I do regularly) and therefore the destiny slot is not available.  Which is my biggest complaint about the system in general in that if I want to play under 45 I've got to be built to not need an incarnate power to make my build work.

 

Again Lore is one I picked and then essentially forgot about.  I click it once in a while when I think the fight might get rough but again in a team of 8 the lore pets are superficial at best and just add to clutter on the screen.  I rarely solo so that is most likely why I didn't dig any further into Lore other than "well this kinda fits my theme such that I have one."

[Yomo Kimyata]

I’m definitely in the minority, but I’m not a big fan of incarnate powers.  One reason is balance — I think they make the game way too easy.  Another reason that’s a lot harder to support is thematic — there are just too many “god-level” heroes running around Rhode Island.  That opinion being expressed, some additional thoughts:

 

Alpha is a cool concept.  Wouldn’t mind seeing additional alpha abilities added.

Destiny is way overpowered.

Lore is ok, but if I wanted pets, I’d run a pet class.  Seems unbalanced by faction.  Would love to see some generic hero supports that aren’t enemy factions but that would probably be a lot of work.

Judgement is misspelled.  That always bugs me.  Also, if I wanted ranged AoE, I’d play a ranged AoE class.

Hybrid might be overpowered, but I forget about it all the time.

Interface seems fine.

 

Generally, when I level to 50, I run the Mender Arc to unlock Alpha.  Run lvl 50 content (including DA arcs for incarnate salvage) until I’m at Alpha Tier 3 or 4.  Then I usually shelve the character and work on something else.

 

[Bill Z Bubba]

I agree that the incarnate powers have trivialized most content.

I agree that the incarnate powers have allowed me to pull off some things solo that I never was able to before they were added and this was fun.

I agree that the incarnate powers have made squishies a hell of a lot more fun to play. I certainly have a lot more of them now than I did before the snap.

 

Would I like to see incarnate versions of the various factions out there? Sure. But to be honest, the current incarnates we fight in DA are actually weaker than their normal counterparts because as it stands, if I fight normal factions at max diff, they're +3 to me while DA factions are only +1 at max diff. Something would have to be done about that. I suspect that having only hybrid T4 granting a single level shift would be the way to go on that. That way, at max diff, everyone is still +3 and incarnate factions are then actually stronger than regular factions. I suspect I already know the outrage such a change would cause.

 

My only real request in regards to the incarnate system is that we never go back to the way we had to advance within it on live. Cuz that was #*$&#^$* stupid.