The unaddressed problem with new Electric powers

[Leogunner]

11 hours ago, Redlynne said:

Can you imagine what the game would be like if you could DEFEAT a $Target by draining its Green Bar -OR- its Blue Bar to zero ... not just the Green Bar to zero?

Only if it's applicable to players too. 

[Trickshooter]

3 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

Only if it's applicable to players too. 

Old nukes would have been Self Destruct buttons

[Steampunkette]

14 minutes ago, Trickshooter said:

But you're kind of highlighting a sub issue here. Elec powersets can be potent... when you play them with a complimentary set. Would you be skipping Controls on your Elec Dominator if their secondary was Martial or Fire?

Generally speaking I don't mix themes, myself. But for that character who has extremely limited sapping options? No. I wouldn't skip the controls and then try to play a Sapper. 'Cause it doesn't work. You need the -recovery to actually sap as a playstyle and Electric Control largely lacks it... But I could do it as a Mind/Elec Dominator with minimal controls outside of Confuse. It would just take longer to break the enemy's blue bar.

 

Sapping is a playstyle that only works if you have enough sapping to make it -work-. Like an Elec/Elec Scrapper or Brute. Or a Controller with Electric/Storm or Electric/Kin at high end. Though, honestly, an Electric/Whatever Blaster or Electric/Whatever Scrapper or Brute can also sap pretty great because the -recovery is built in.

 

-Recovery is generally in attack powers, while -Endurance is in both attack -and- control -and- debuff sets. But it's a lot stronger in Control and Debuff sets because it's a debuff.

 

But having some -recovery and -endurance is -still- a strong secondary ability. It just comes to full power later in the fight. Yeah, -Res or -Def would be more helpful for the alpha. But after 10-20 seconds of fighting your enemies are sucking wind while you're still standing there with endurance to spare. After that point they -can't- attack you, any longer, which skyrockets your survivability rather than your murdering speed.

Edited February 28, 2020 by Steampunkette

[srmalloy]

4 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

But having some -recovery and -endurance is -still- a strong secondary ability. It just comes to full power later in the fight. Yeah, -Res or -Def would be more helpful for the alpha. But after 10-20 seconds of fighting your enemies are sucking wind while you're still standing there with endurance to spare. After that point they -can't- attack you, any longer, which skyrockets your survivability rather than your murdering speed.

This is what I've found with my Elec/TW Tanker; using Power Sink drains the mobs around her to zero or close to it, and Lightning Field keeps them there, stuck. I've had fights recently with Warriors where I had a half dozen standing around being whaled on without responding because they didn't have the End for their sword/mace attack.

[Rathulfr]

28 minutes ago, Trickshooter said:

Old nukes were would have been Self Destruct buttons

Fixed that for you.

[Sura]

3 hours ago, Coyote said:

1: To clear up the 1 end point misconception, NPC attacks cost more than 1 Endurance. However, what is happening is that when NPCs regain Endurance, like characters, they don't get it back in 1 EP chunks, but in larger chunks. So their minimum regain chunk is large enough to throw out an attack.

2: We can't really set up NPCs to run toggles instead of base resist values, because it would put too much strain on the engine to calculate toggles for all hostile mobs in the game all the time. Instead, they're auto. Only the few debuffers run toggles.

3: Given this, it may be reasonable to simulate End Drain as detoggling defenses, by giving a "Exhausted" debuff for mobs for 5-10 seconds after being at 0 End, which gives a -20% Resistance to all damage and to Regeneration. This would give an advantage to zeroing out mobs even if you can't keep them there, and would simulate the effects of having to retoggle defensive powers.

 

I think, not sure, but I think, that Tsoo Sorcerers follow rule number three already with their Hurricane.  Every time I run them out of END the Hurricane drops, even though I know it's not an actual toggle.

 

2 hours ago, Steampunkette said:

Electric's secondary is already strong enough.

 

As an Electric/Electric Dominator I don't even -bother- taking control-centric powers, often. Outside of Jolting Chain and Static Field I don't need them. I throw on Conductive Aura, have my Gremlins follow me and me Voltaic Sentinel into combat, and sap enemies dry in seconds. Who needs a Hold when the enemy stands there, gormlessly, unable to do anything?

 

Endurance drain is Percentage Based rather than Static Values. Lightning bolt saps 10% of the enemy's endurance in a shot. Doesn't matter whether the enemy's max end is 50 or 200, 10% is gone in a flash. Meanwhile Static Field is ticking away another 21% over 4 seconds while Conductive Aura is doing 14%/tick. And Havoc Punch and Thunderstrike ensure they won't be recovering any endurance. So do Charged Bolts and Lightning Bolt and Static Discharge for AoE. (Ball Lightning, too, in Mu Mastery). And that's not even -slotting- for End Mod. Do that and/or use the Agility Incarnate and it's even more disgusting.

 

 

 

My Ice/Elec tank is like this too.  With my slotting Energy Absorption takes away 70% of enemies' endurance.  Electric Fences is 16%.  Charged Brawl, Jacobs Ladder, Chain Induction, Thunder Strike, and Ball Lightning are all 7%.  Four power executions and I've fully drained everyone around me, and some of those powers have -recovery as well.  I don't think I could tank with just sapping, but I sure the heck know that it's not hurting me.  

 

I think the problem is that there's no way to really quantify how much sapping is helping. 

[Coyote]

5 minutes ago, Sura said:

I think, not sure, but I think, that Tsoo Sorcerers follow rule number three already with their Hurricane.  Every time I run them out of END the Hurricane drops, even though I know it's not an actual toggle.

 

You're right, debuff and buff AoE powers that would seem to act like toggles actually ARE toggles. That's why you never see Sorcerors just standing around with a Hurricane on, they have to toggle it up. Same with Spectral Demons who have a Chill of the Night toggle, Ruin Mages who bring up a defensive bubble, many mobs with Leadership powers, and so on. Generally, if they affect other targets besides the owner of the power (whether as buffs or debuffs), they are likely to run as toggles. They can be shut off by sapping or by Sleep/Stun/Holds.

[Steampunkette]

22 minutes ago, Sura said:

My Ice/Elec tank is like this too.  With my slotting Energy Absorption takes away 70% of enemies' endurance.  Electric Fences is 16%.  Charged Brawl, Jacobs Ladder, Chain Induction, Thunder Strike, and Ball Lightning are all 7%.  Four power executions and I've fully drained everyone around me, and some of those powers have -recovery as well.  I don't think I could tank with just sapping, but I sure the heck know that it's not hurting me.  

 

I think the problem is that there's no way to really quantify how much sapping is helping. 

Sure there is! Once you've got them sapped, turn off your toggles except the Lightning Field.

 

If they still can't hurt you: The sapping is rendering them utterly powerless.

[Super Atom]

-end is the worst form of control. It'd be cool if it did something but again its important that whatever happens be applied to players as well.

[Sura]

20 minutes ago, Coyote said:

 

You're right, debuff and buff AoE powers that would seem to act like toggles actually ARE toggles. That's why you never see Sorcerors just standing around with a Hurricane on, they have to toggle it up. Same with Spectral Demons who have a Chill of the Night toggle, Ruin Mages who bring up a defensive bubble, many mobs with Leadership powers, and so on. Generally, if they affect other targets besides the owner of the power (whether as buffs or debuffs), they are likely to run as toggles. They can be shut off by sapping or by Sleep/Stun/Holds.

 

Dang.  I thought I read at some point on these boards that they weren't exactly toggles, but that they were setting a flag like you described, and that made them act like toggles.  If that was the case I was holding it up as an existing example of how your number three could work.  There's probably not a chance in the world I'll find that post again though.  🙂

6 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

Sure there is! Once you've got them sapped, turn off your toggles except the Lightning Field.

 

If they still can't hurt you: The sapping is rendering them utterly powerless.

 

Oh, I've definitely seen it work.  I sapped that poor minotaur at the end of the Alpha slot arc so bad I'm not sure he attacked more than twice.  It'd just be interesting to somehow see how much mitigation I'm getting.  And if measurement was possible it'd be easier to gauge sapping's effectiveness.  

 

That said, I think if they were to make more stringent rules for END usage by NPC's they'd have to reduce the effectiveness of sapping somewhat.  I think sapping is at a pretty good place right now.

 

[Menelruin]

6 hours ago, Steampunkette said:

Electric's secondary is already strong enough.

 

As an Electric/Electric Dominator I don't even -bother- taking control-centric powers, often. Outside of Jolting Chain and Static Field I don't need them. I throw on Conductive Aura, have my Gremlins follow me and me Voltaic Sentinel into combat, and sap enemies dry in seconds. Who needs a Hold when the enemy stands there, gormlessly, unable to do anything?

Any chance I could get that build?

 

🤩

[Steampunkette]

1 minute ago, Menelruin said:

Any chance I could get that build?

 

🤩

http://www.cohplanner.com/mids/download.php?uc=1486&c=680&a=1360&f=HEX&dc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

 

I love playing Assaulters.

[Menelruin]

2 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

http://www.cohplanner.com/mids/download.php?uc=1486&c=680&a=1360&f=HEX&dc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

 

I love playing Assaulters.

YASSS.  Been wanting SOMETHING elec2 that could drain mobs dry rapidly! 

[Steampunkette]

8 minutes ago, Menelruin said:

YASSS.  Been wanting SOMETHING elec2 that could drain mobs dry rapidly! 

If you wanna go faster, you could axe Ball Lightning's slots and drop an Endmod or two into Static Field, Jolting Chain, Conductive Aura, and Static Discharge.

 

I just like having Ball Lightning and Static Discharge as my AoE Bread and Butter for damage.

[Bossk_Hogg]

Given that the new set has a fair amount of -damage, and no other attack set currently does outside of chemical rounds, maybe that could be something electric blast offers? Defenders would get a stacking 5% damage penalty and scale down from there. That way your secondary does something before they hit 0 end, and the 0 end is just a perk that can sometimes come into play.

[Communistpenguin]

Maybe put -recovery into whatever elec powers that lack it? I know elec blast for defenders doesnt have much in the way of -recovery. Short circuit kinda sucks due to its pbaoe nature, it can be tricky to stay alive in melee range for the duration of the animation. I know I really only use sapping powers when I need to shut down a boss that typically has a strong mez power. 

[kelika2]

I think -end and -recovery on enemies are nice side little bonuses like fire's dot or cold's -spd/rech.  its cool to see them kinda work but not worth slotting for.

 

elec blast has been a solid set since the instant snipe patch

pair it with /energy and blap a bit

pair it with /fire and be a pbaoe god

pair it with /elec and wish you went /energy because your +end/recovery power is at level 35 and they get theirs at 16

pair it with /psi so you can have another ranged aoe and yet another pbaoe and call yourself the Synaptic Something

 

Having enemies at zero end all the time falls way back on the "fighting statues" bit which got trollers nerfed in early issues in the first place.

[Bossk_Hogg]

3 minutes ago, kelika2 said:

I think -end and -recovery on enemies are nice side little bonuses like fire's dot or cold's -spd/rech.  its cool to see them kinda work but not worth slotting for.

 

elec blast has been a solid set since the instant snipe patch

pair it with /energy and blap a bit

pair it with /fire and be a pbaoe god

pair it with /elec and wish you went /energy because your +end/recovery power is at level 35 and they get theirs at 16

pair it with /psi so you can have another ranged aoe and yet another pbaoe and call yourself the Synaptic Something

 

Having enemies at zero end all the time falls way back on the "fighting statues" bit which got trollers nerfed in early issues in the first place.

It's most definitely NOT fine. Other sets which are better ALSO get secondaries. Moreover, corrupters and defenders DON'T get blaster secondaries...

 

Elec is near the bottom for both ST and AE damage, due to not having a T3 blast, Thunderous Blast using the wrong recharge/damage formula, and Volt Sentinel being hot wet garbage. The secondary does nothing until you completely drain the endurance. Against similar level foes, hitting with dark blast is basically adding 6 -9% defense vs that foe, and it stacks up pretty fast. That's fairly significant.

 

Sentinel Electric Blast is actually the only decent one, as they upped the damage on Tesla Cage and fixed Thunderous Blast's recharge. Volt Sentinel is still ass sadly. 

[Leogunner]

11 hours ago, Coyote said:

3: Given this, it may be reasonable to simulate End Drain as detoggling defenses, by giving a "Exhausted" debuff for mobs for 5-10 seconds after being at 0 End, which gives a -20% Resistance to all damage and to Regeneration. This would give an advantage to zeroing out mobs even if you can't keep them there, and would simulate the effects of having to retoggle defensive powers.

Why not just use whatever tech that prestige transformations use and deactivate any powers (click, toggle or passive) the target has on them?  That is, the "Exhausted" granted power deactivates all other powers except it and outside buffs.

[Communistpenguin]

3 hours ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

It's most definitely NOT fine. Other sets which are better ALSO get secondaries. Moreover, corrupters and defenders DON'T get blaster secondaries...

 

Elec is near the bottom for both ST and AE damage, due to not having a T3 blast, Thunderous Blast using the wrong recharge/damage formula, and Volt Sentinel being hot wet garbage. The secondary does nothing until you completely drain the endurance. Against similar level foes, hitting with dark blast is basically adding 6 -9% defense vs that foe, and it stacks up pretty fast. That's fairly significant.

 

Sentinel Electric Blast is actually the only decent one, as they upped the damage on Tesla Cage and fixed Thunderous Blast's recharge. Volt Sentinel is still ass sadly. 

I like volt sentinel, but i have a storm/elec, so having several independent damage pets works for me.

[WindDemon21]

I've been saying this since live, and there is an easy solution that the nudevs almost seemed to get to with shock therapy. But with end draining, npc damage should be directly proportionate to their end bar. Since when at zero end they're at zero damage anyway it makes sense.

 

It also makes sense cause as you're more tired you're going to have less oomph to your punches.

 

This way even sets, which is almost all elec powers, that can't fully drain the enemies endurance can still have a useful effect.

 

Or at the very least, just add a -damage debuff to them.

Edited February 29, 2020 by WindDemon21

[Galaxy Brain]

Thinking on it, the core issue with end drain isnt that it works, it's that it is slow to work.

 

Yes, draining an enemy to 0 and managing to keep them there is essentially the same as stunning them. They can move, but they cannot use powers / toggles. However to get there it often takes at least 2 separate power activations at best where other forms of CC can do the job in 1. You also need -Rec on top of end drain to be worthwhile.

 

It can be nice vs enemies that are mez resistant sure, but those are few and far between and you need special combos of powers to achieve effective drainage. 

[Call Me Awesome]

11 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Thinking on it, the core issue with end drain isnt that it works, it's that it is slow to work.

 

Yes, draining an enemy to 0 and managing to keep them there is essentially the same as stunning them. They can move, but they cannot use powers / toggles. However to get there it often takes at least 2 separate power activations at best where other forms of CC can do the job in 1. You also need -Rec on top of end drain to be worthwhile.

 

It can be nice vs enemies that are mez resistant sure, but those are few and far between and you need special combos of powers to achieve effective drainage. 

My main gripe with the concept of end draining powers is that until the mob's end hits zero the effect is useless, and in the same time it takes an Elec to drain a mob any other blast set would have killed it.

[Galaxy Brain]

Just now, Call Me Awesome said:

My main gripe with the concept of end draining powers is that until the mob's end hits zero the effect is useless, and in the same time it takes an Elec to drain a mob any other blast set would have killed it.

Which again, has to do with time. Sets like ice and psy have a similar effect where their -rech doesnt technically apply for a bit (after the target attacks), but it is still immediately there.

 

I'd be happy if there were either some scourge like effect that elec attacks had with the remaining end of targets, or if there were some debuff associated with losing end that helps with immediate safety.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

16 hours ago, WindDemon21 said:

I've been saying this since live, and there is an easy solution that the nudevs almost seemed to get to with shock therapy. But with end draining, npc damage should be directly proportionate to their end bar. Since when at zero end they're at zero damage anyway it makes sense.

 

It also makes sense cause as you're more tired you're going to have less oomph to your punches.

 

This way even sets, which is almost all elec powers, that can't fully drain the enemies endurance can still have a useful effect.

 

Or at the very least, just add a -damage debuff to them.

Except as keeps getting said whatever change occurs should be for both player and mob elec powers. Do you really want a direct dmg debuff equal to whatever amount down your end bar is?

 

End isnt about being tired. We dont enter the sleep cc state when we flatline on blue. Comparing it to some kind of winded/exhausted concept is more how your own internal rp logic is coloring the mechanic.

 

We after all have sleep, and exhaustion status effects in the game. Now it might indeed be interesting to add so that if we do flatline, or the mob does it triggers a sleep state and when awoken has the exhaustion effect.

 

But then what about Red? Why would not being lower on red also produce 2ndary effects? Basically what your asking for is a reverse of old blaster defiance, applied to our end bar.