Focused Feedback: Dark Melee Update (Build 2)

[Bionic_Flea]

Has anyone compared a live Dark Consumption with a Brainstorm Dark Equilibrium?

 

While this is a severe reduction from what it was last patch, it is still a buff.

Edited February 29, 2020 by Bionic_Flea

[ScarySai]

9 minutes ago, TheMuna said:

People skip it? I thought it was a defining power of the set.

That's soul drain.

 

@Bionic_FleaWe are aware, but it's stated design goal was to be a "Melee nuke" akin to Lightning Rod/Shield charge, which it fails to do.

 

Additionally, the ability doesn't do enough damage in the current build to really be worth it in general. Looking at my build now, dropping it to fit in fireball with bombardment or ragnarok slotted would be a better use of the slots. Is it better than live? Sure, but that's an incredibly low bar.

Edited February 29, 2020 by ScarySai

[KelvinKole]

Try not to look at DE in a vacuum and draw comparisons to other AoEs. It's in a set that provides a mix of damage, utility, and sustain and probably should do less damage than similar (I hesitate to even use that word) in other sets. 

 

What we saw in the last version was waaayyy too much. Relatively, this may seem like a large nerf but it might also be putting the set as a whole right where it should be. Relatively, it's also a nice buff over live. Calling on @Galaxy Brainto rerun the scrapper primary test. 

[WindDemon21]

21 minutes ago, TheMuna said:

Soul drain is already the best build up power. We can't ask for any more there. Please don't ask them to change it.

I'm not asking for "more" I'm asking for whatever needs to be done to have the recharge match dark equilibrium. Big difference. Or even make DE 60s recharge and adjust it that way to 10 end per enemy. I'd be a lot happier then if leaving SD alone. It actually seems like the best scenario for the power with these new changes that nerfed it. 60s rech for DE.

 

I still say regardless that they ditch DC/DE and just get engulfing darkness and add a recovery buff as well to siphon life. I would much prefer an actual aoe attack that utilizes the -to hit better.

Edited February 29, 2020 by WindDemon21
phone autocorrect correction >_>

[ScarySai]

9 minutes ago, KelvinKole said:

What we saw in the last version was waaayyy too much. Relatively, this may seem like a large nerf but it might also be putting the set as a whole right where it should be. Relatively, it's also a nice buff over live.

Again, being better than live is a low bar.

 

While the last build did have way too much burst at times when you could max out it's damage and land a crit, the opposite is now true - it doesn't do enough damage to justify using it as AoE filler, let alone a melee nuke.

 

At damage cap it should be doing more than what two base damage filler AOEs are capable of, if it is indeed intended to be like Lightning Rod/shield charge.

 

Edited February 29, 2020 by ScarySai

[macskull]

4 minutes ago, KelvinKole said:

Try not to look at DE in a vacuum and draw comparisons to other AoEs. It's in a set that provides a mix of damage, utility, and sustain and probably should do less damage than similar (I hesitate to even use that word) in other sets. 

 

What we saw in the last version was waaayyy too much. Relatively, this may seem like a large nerf but it might also be putting the set as a whole right where it should be. Relatively, it's also a nice buff over live. Calling on @Galaxy Brainto rerun the scrapper primary test. 

While I would normally agree with you, the rub here is how it's been presented in the OP (emphasis mine):

8 hours ago, Jimmy said:

Dark Equilibrium (Tanker, Scrapper, Brute) has been reworked into a mini-nuke with a portion of its damage scaling based on your current Endurance percentage. At full Endurance, Dark Equilibrium will now deal similar damage to other melee mini-nukes (such as Lightning Rod).

That, and the justification for removing the ability to crit because the other mini-nuke powers don't crit, leaves DE in a weird spot. It's now basically an okay AoE power with a recharge time that's far too long and in reality has no similarity to the other mini-nuked powers except its recharge time. It's got a smaller radius, it's got a smaller target cap, and the extra damage within a 3ft radius was removed, and it does appreciably less damage than the other mini-nukes. While it may be true that the original version was overtuned, this latest patch has swung too far in the other direction and is trying to change too many things at once.

[WindDemon21]

I'll say again if the power is to stay, give it a 60s base recharge, 10 end per enemy, 20 for the first one hit. Then it'll line up with soul drain, half off. Give it a 12-15ft radius. And a 20-30s duration -10% to hit to give that more of a use.

 

Puts it at a perfect in between of mini nuke and actual aoe attack with benefits.

[TheMuna]

This overall still seems great to me. The biggest problem with Dark Melee as a set was that it's buff depended on large mobs but it's real attacks could only hit single targets. This led to you have to stand there and gather a large group only to take them out one by one.

 

This turns that around alot and allows you to actually take out minions and Lts while focusing your awesome single target numbers on the bosses and above.  This improves the viability of Dark melee as a solo char basically by increased mob clearing speed.  All around good changes. The increase in the way DC/DE works will help characters in the earlier stages when end is often an actual problem, and being full blue isn't normal midway through a fight.

 

I'm really happy about the Shadow Maul time being brought down (they've done everything I asked for and more) and I think this can work as is....  I think they've balanced the nuke for the purposes of the pre-Godlevel class.

[KelvinKole]

12 minutes ago, macskull said:

While I would normally agree with you, the rub here is how it's been presented in the OP (emphasis mine):

That, and the justification for removing the ability to crit because the other mini-nuke powers don't crit, leaves DE in a weird spot. It's now basically an okay AoE power with a recharge time that's far too long and in reality has no similarity to the other mini-nuked powers except its recharge time. It's got a smaller radius, it's got a smaller target cap, and the extra damage within a 3ft radius was removed, and it does appreciably less damage than the other mini-nukes. While it may be true that the original version was overtuned, this latest patch has swung too far in the other direction and is trying to change too many things at once.

I hear you. Just keep in mind that's it not just a PBAoE attack; it doubles as a utility power to refill your endurance so it's also different from other mini-nukes in that regard. Now that the ceiling has been limited though, returning the ability to crit might be all that's needed. 

 

In general, I'm just cautioning against emotional responses to the changes and trying to advocate for some data. We also still have buffs to shadow maul, so the sum of all parts should be considered. 

Edited February 29, 2020 by KelvinKole

[Troo]

3 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

Puts it at a perfect in between of mini nuke and actual aoe attack with benefits.

But that's not the idea. It is to be a 'potential' mini-nuke.

[macskull]

Just now, KelvinKole said:

I hear you. Just keep in mind that's it not just a PBAoE attack; it doubles as a utility power to refill your endurance so it's also different from other mini-nukes in that regard. Now that the ceiling has been limited though, returning the ability to crit might be all that's needed. 

 

In general, I'm just cautioning against emotional responses to the changes and trying to advocate for some data. 

The problem with this point of view is that if you're using Dark Equilibrium to refill your endurance, it's not going to do nearly as much damage as the numbers upthread have shown, and those are showing that even at best case when you're near 100% endurance (so it is effectively just a PBAoE attack at that point since you're getting little to no benefit from the +end) it's mediocre compared to more spammable PBAoE attacks from other sets.

 

I don't think anyone here is having an emotional response, I'm just trying to point out that the power is basically being sold as and balanced around being a mini-nuke when today's changes have made it more of an okay PBAoE even in the best of cases. You don't skip Lightning Rod or Shield Charge or Savage Leap, but in its current form I'm betting a lot of builds will skip Dark Equilibrium.

[WindDemon21]

Damage scaled for 60 seconds it still would be. Look at rain of arrows in comparison to other blaster tier 9 powers, same idea.

 

60s recharge, better damage than regular aoe attacks, less than lightning rod, bonus utility (which dm has always been the utility set).

[Galaxy Brain]

Testing Results V2 

 

Link to OG post:

 

 

I've run the V2 Dark melee through the same gauntlet as the V1, and saw a significant decrease in performance:

 

 

 

One thing I didn't post last time though was my personal averages, isolating only my own runs against each other:

 

 

 

Either way, it has moved from the upper half of melee sets to the lower half. But, even in this weaker state it is still much better off than it was! It is still 1:16 faster on average than my Vanilla DM runs, which is a MASSIVE leap in offensive power. It has dropped into the tiers of StJ, Savage, and Dual Blades which is certainly not a bad place to be but more on the "average" side. Given the set's raw utility this may be fitting.

 

As mentioned before, there are few times if any I actually had my endurance dip below like, 75% when DE was available making the end scaling kinda moot, though it is certainly nice it has a higher "floor" to work with for all skill levels and builds. It does hit for significantly less damage though, and even with the buffs to SM's recharge and damage you can see the difference over time where in V1 mobs would be cleared, in V2 you have to keep swinging a bit more per exchange. Maybe tweak the base damage back up by like 5-7.5% ?

 

The Shadow Maul change actually felt like more of a Defensive buff this time, as with better recharge I could more reliably spread -ToHit to cover myself in a mob. Overall i think that power is perfect right now! Running just SM though would be worse than SM + DE thanks to the raw burst damage DE still provides, even if it is less than before. 

 

On the whole, it is looking much better in-line with existing sets! It may need a smidge further tweaking to really hit the sweet spot for DE. If the damage is not tweaked upwards a *tiny* bit, then perhaps the recharge or area / accuracy could be touched instead.

 

 

 

 

 

Side Suggestion - 

 

This is not on the table of course, but one thing that I noticed is that Siphon Life is a great ST power when you have Soul Drain up, but it just feels kinda funny that it doesn't heal more even when it is hitting harder. Would it be too much to ask if a portion of it's +Heal is enhanced by +Damage? 😈

 

 

[Frosticus]

Couple things to consider:

shield charge and Lightning Rod are psuedo pets (currently) and as such have a much lower damage cap.

I think people either don't use these attacks or are overstating their potency. They are good, but nothing remotely like the first iteration of DE (DC at the time).

 

DE should be subject to the much higher damage caps that all three melee AT's have compared to (psuedo) pets.

 

Haven't tried the new version, but it does sound like it swung too far back. Again, as I suggested before, look to the original design you first had but expand the aoe. That will reign in the damage to a more appropriate level while making the power more useable as either purpose. 

 

Crits or something special in place of crits should be fine. It is not great design when an AT can't use a power the way they should. 

[WindDemon21]

19 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

On the whole, it is looking much better in-line with existing sets! It may need a smidge further tweaking to really hit the sweet spot for DE. If the damage is not tweaked upwards a *tiny* bit, then perhaps the recharge or area / accuracy could be touched instead.

I agree, they should make its recharge 60 seconds base with a 12-15ft radius and it would be perfect.

[Bopper]

1 hour ago, Neogumbercules said:

I did miss that part, thanks. Seems even weirder then. Does it recover more endurance and deal less damage when you're low on end? Because that would seem like the equilibrium part of the name to me. 

 

If not, then the damage scaling based on endurance seems even more pointless... 

It does not, only scales the damage. But I did propose a tweak that would do just that: More Endurance if low on endurance, More Damage if high on endurance. I think it would play in well with the name change.

 

 

[Troo]

Dark Consumption at full endurance should be exceptional.. full endurance is not the norm.

 

Dark Consumption with endurance at a high percentage should be considered more typical application. It should still be pretty good in that situation.

 

That it went from above average to below average is a bit troubling.

It wasn't elite but it did break through to be comparable to Staff Fighting and Katana.

[Bionic_Flea]

53 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Testing Results V2 

 

 

 

 

Can we get a slight boost to DE to put in right in the middle of V1 and V2?  I think that might hit the spot.

[WindDemon21]

26 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

Can we get a slight boost to DE to put in right in the middle of V1 and V2?  I think that might hit the spot.

Putting it at a base 60s recharge with a 12-15ft radius and lowering the end per target with most focused on the first target hit would do that and give more utility to the -to hit a end gain earlier on.

Edited March 1, 2020 by WindDemon21

[KelvinKole]

1 hour ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Testing Results V2 

 

Link to OG post:

 

 

I've run the V2 Dark melee through the same gauntlet as the V1, and saw a significant decrease in performance:

 

 

 

One thing I didn't post last time though was my personal averages, isolating only my own runs against each other:

 

 

 

Either way, it has moved from the upper half of melee sets to the lower half. But, even in this weaker state it is still much better off than it was! It is still 1:16 faster on average than my Vanilla DM runs, which is a MASSIVE leap in offensive power. It has dropped into the tiers of StJ, Savage, and Dual Blades which is certainly not a bad place to be but more on the "average" side. Given the set's raw utility this may be fitting.

 

As mentioned before, there are few times if any I actually had my endurance dip below like, 75% when DE was available making the end scaling kinda moot, though it is certainly nice it has a higher "floor" to work with for all skill levels and builds. It does hit for significantly less damage though, and even with the buffs to SM's recharge and damage you can see the difference over time where in V1 mobs would be cleared, in V2 you have to keep swinging a bit more per exchange. Maybe tweak the base damage back up by like 5-7.5% ?

 

The Shadow Maul change actually felt like more of a Defensive buff this time, as with better recharge I could more reliably spread -ToHit to cover myself in a mob. Overall i think that power is perfect right now! Running just SM though would be worse than SM + DE thanks to the raw burst damage DE still provides, even if it is less than before. 

 

On the whole, it is looking much better in-line with existing sets! It may need a smidge further tweaking to really hit the sweet spot for DE. If the damage is not tweaked upwards a *tiny* bit, then perhaps the recharge or area / accuracy could be touched instead.

 

 

 

 

 

Side Suggestion - 

 

This is not on the table of course, but one thing that I noticed is that Siphon Life is a great ST power when you have Soul Drain up, but it just feels kinda funny that it doesn't heal more even when it is hitting harder. Would it be too much to ask if a portion of it's +Heal is enhanced by +Damage? 😈

 

 

Thanks for doing this. As you said, given that Dark Melee has a lot of utility (a self heal, stacking -tohit, endurance refiller, fear, immobilize) this feels close to the right spot to me. Bumping the radius up to 10ft might finish this thing off.

[WindDemon21]

2 minutes ago, KelvinKole said:

Thanks for doing this. As you said, given that Dark Melee has a lot of utility (a self heal, stacking -tohit, endurance refiller, fear, immobilize) this feels close to the right spot to me. Bumping the radius up to 10ft might finish this thing off.

I would be fine with a 10ft radius at a 60s recharge. The 60s base recharge is super super key to keep it in line with soul drains timing and utilize the secondary effects of the power better.

[csr]

1 hour ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Testing Results V2 

 

Link to OG post:

 

 

I've run the V2 Dark melee through the same gauntlet as the V1, and saw a significant decrease in performance:

 

 

 

One thing I didn't post last time though was my personal averages, isolating only my own runs against each other:

 

 

 

Either way, it has moved from the upper half of melee sets to the lower half. But, even in this weaker state it is still much better off than it was! It is still 1:16 faster on average than my Vanilla DM runs, which is a MASSIVE leap in offensive power. It has dropped into the tiers of StJ, Savage, and Dual Blades which is certainly not a bad place to be but more on the "average" side. Given the set's raw utility this may be fitting.

 

As mentioned before, there are few times if any I actually had my endurance dip below like, 75% when DE was available making the end scaling kinda moot, though it is certainly nice it has a higher "floor" to work with for all skill levels and builds. It does hit for significantly less damage though, and even with the buffs to SM's recharge and damage you can see the difference over time where in V1 mobs would be cleared, in V2 you have to keep swinging a bit more per exchange. Maybe tweak the base damage back up by like 5-7.5% ?

 

The Shadow Maul change actually felt like more of a Defensive buff this time, as with better recharge I could more reliably spread -ToHit to cover myself in a mob. Overall i think that power is perfect right now! Running just SM though would be worse than SM + DE thanks to the raw burst damage DE still provides, even if it is less than before. 

 

On the whole, it is looking much better in-line with existing sets! It may need a smidge further tweaking to really hit the sweet spot for DE. If the damage is not tweaked upwards a *tiny* bit, then perhaps the recharge or area / accuracy could be touched instead.

 

 

 

 

 

Side Suggestion - 

 

This is not on the table of course, but one thing that I noticed is that Siphon Life is a great ST power when you have Soul Drain up, but it just feels kinda funny that it doesn't heal more even when it is hitting harder. Would it be too much to ask if a portion of it's +Heal is enhanced by +Damage? 😈

 

 

First, thanks for taking the time to do these.

 

I think Dark Melee is apt to benefit a bit more from IOs than most.  For example, in this chart DM is only about 1.7 minutes per run behind Battle Axe, yet in the previous SO:IO differentials that you posted it gained about 3.1 min/run more than BA did.  If that held for IOs in DM2 then it would move ahead of BA.  As a result I think it isn't unreasonable to assume that for those of us that use IOs DM2 should now be in the neighborhood of sets such as BA or perhaps even Rad (in your differentials DM gained about 7 min/run on Rad with IOs and in this latest DM2 sits about 6-1/2 min/run behind Rad).

 

Also, we should be cautious about taking the results of 10 runs by one person as being an especially accurate gauge of the sets performance.  It's the best one we have here, but there are undoubtedly some play-style biases and very likely even in this much play time (6 hrs), some random fluctuations.  I wouldn't be surprised if a 2nd set of runs with DM2 were better than BS or worse than MA, for example.

Edited March 1, 2020 by csr

[Galaxy Brain]

1 minute ago, csr said:

First, thanks for taking the time to do these.

 

I think Dark Melee is apt to benefit a bit more from IOs than most.  For example, in this chart DM is only about 1.7 minutes per run behind Battle Axe, yet in the previous SO:IO differentials that you posted it gained about 3.1 min/run more than BA did.  If that held for IOs in DM2 then it would move ahead of BA.  As a result I think it isn't unreasonable to assume that for those of us that use IOs DM2 should now be in the neighborhood of sets such as BA or perhaps even Rad (in your differentials DM gained about 7 min/run on Rad and in this latest sits about 6-1/2 min/run behind it).

 

Also, we should be cautious about taking the results of 10 runs by one person as being an especially accurate gauge of the sets performance.  It's the best one we have here, but there are undoubtedly some play-style biases and very likely even in this much play time (6 hrs), some random fluctuations.  I wouldn't be surprised if a 2nd set of runs with DM2 were better than BS or worse than MA, for example.

Agreed that the sample size is lower than ideal, but I'm also one guy 😉

 

A bigger sample size would be ideal + from more people. I've posted the SO build in the prior thread, and the OG thread goes over the rules as well for anyone who wants to try too! 

 

I could also just do like 25~ runs or so to get as much variance as possible...

 

 

As for IOs, that is also something we can try as a point of comparison though that is funky due to what could be slotted per primary set for similar performance., but it would be definitely worth trying.

 

[Haijinx]

Its not that bad though, since it WAS dead last

[Arkterusss]

It feels like if you kept the "no-crit" option, maybe went back to the original scaling + bonus damage, it would probably be at the right spot after testing it out some more.

I always felt like Dark Melee was an oddball from a design decision.  It almost feels like Touch of Fear should have never made the cut, and that Midnight Grasp should have been moved up to t8 (and adjusted accordingly), and the t9 for the powerset should have been a "soft aoe" similar to Frozen Aura, except that inflicts Fear instead of Sleep.  I never understood the concept of a "Jump into as many people as possible to leverage these two powers, but your aoe options are garbage" 😎