Rare power sets that used to be popular.

[Sovera]

4 hours ago, srmalloy said:

The original pre-IO, pre-rework Regen was all about this -- learning where the balance was to be able to jump into a big spawn of mobs and whittle their incoming damage down below your healing rate before you ran out of hit points. Once you could use IO set bonuses to fill in the places where it was inconvenient to build around getting enough Defense and Resistance to shift that point significantly, it made it possible to get the same survival with 'sloppier' builds that weren't based around squeezing the power pools until they screamed to get everything you could out of them for your survival.

 

And that's one of the things that annoys me about most of the builds that get posted in the forums -- you see the fully twinked-out character with their two Superior ATO sets slotted, purple sets everywhere they'll fit, all the Incarnate slots opened and maxed-out, and how this all works together to make the character a juggernaut... and nothing about how they got there to give you an idea of how to go about following that build up through the levels. Some people don't have their own Fire/Spines Brute to farm tens of millions of influence to be able to pay for all of these enhancements, and if you don't have all the right T4 Incarnate powers and the purples and ATOs you're suffering from crippling End costs, or have an ugly hole in some specific defense or resistance type, and no suggestions about how to make this work, other than the obvious one of "level a build that works, accumulate several billion influence and cap your Incarnate components, and buy everything at once".

 

It's not directly related to alpha strikes, but the "attack in perfect synchronization" thing has been acutely painful for me several times, literally. In the "Cure the Lost" mission, you can pick a lieutenant to cure in the middle of a crowd of minions, and if you're wearing headphones or earphones, if the surrounding minions all pull out shotguns and unload on the cured civilian, the *BLAM* from all the shotguns going off at once hurts. And I keep my sound levels turned down.

What is there to be said prior to having accumulated the needed influence? You're making a needless wide eyed case of an ingenue. You just live off inspirations like everyone else. Have you tried asking these questions in the threads where the builds you mention were posted?

 

While you have a point this isn't DBZ where we will post a build and go 'This is me at 10% of my real power. And now I will use 20%'. Though I suppose it would have been less fun if Goku did not try to fight normally at first, then go SS1, still be unable to win, then go SS2, then 3, then god, then blue.

 

I DIGRESS!

[DSorrow]

4 hours ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

So.  Much.  This.  There's a lot of theorycrafted builds and a few actual tested builds - but either way, they're endgame builds.  Getting advice on what powers to take when and what's skippable while leveling...  that can be like pulling teeth.  Heck, getting advice on how the play a not-top drawer-endgame build can be difficult.

Whenever you're browsing the AT forums it's always a good idea to remember that:

• This is an old game, many of the people playing now spent a lot of time researching builds, game mechanics and efficient ways of generating influence back in the day
• Even if we assume that the actual distribution of players is similar to any other MMO out there and not biased towards the hardcore, the people posting on the forums are by no means representative of the average player. 

While my experience is different from yours in that many players are willing to help with a build no matter the constraints (e.g. cost) if asked, it's also not uncommon that they rather opt to give advice on how to achieve said build. Acquiring influence and IOs is so ridiculously easy that it's often more convenient to offer generic information about that topic rather than re-do a specific build for a lower cost level, plus the former guidance has more long lasting benefits for the recipient.

 

Finally, I have to say that unless you're planning to do silly challenges that actually require a top-end build, it doesn't really matter what kind of a build you put together if you have sensibly slotted IO sets in it (i.e. damage sets in primarily damage powers, applicable debuff sets in primarily debuff powers, etc.). Experiment with the sets to discover what powers you like, research some of the posted builds to find out common themes in slotting and power choices and make your own build. If you need feedback or advice, you're several times more likely to get some if you put in some effort yourself by posting a build and asking specific questions about it rather than looking for someone to do all the work for you by re-doing an endgame build for a lower budget.

[Lines]

I design all my builds for an estimated <100 inf budget, since I have a rule that all my characters must fund themselves, so I get them to an achievable plateau before decking them out. I'd be happy to start posting them, but I often build for odd gimmicks rather than optimisation.

Edited March 10, 2020 by Lines

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

19 hours ago, Yoru-hime said:

Stalkers in general, but ninjas in particular. It felt like the Ninja Blade/Ninjutsu or SR combo used to be everywhere. They still show up, but it doesn't feel like half of all Stalkers you see anymore.

People seem to be pretty dismissive of powers like caltrops or a 2nd placate power these days. Many stalkers are skipping their placates now I gather but I still got both on my stj/ninja stalker batman homage The Black Flying Fox. He is by design my most mortal, non IO setted out 50. Those utlity powers come in handy alot. often on TFs when everyone is exemped and many didnt bother to build with such in mind so they feel very weak while running a mid level tf.

 

Was on a moonfire with him recently, and the brute trying to tank kept getting overwhelmed so I kept using caltrops to help slow down the mobs rushing at him, and stun grenade to cc them abit.

[Mitchman]

I remember fire/kin being crazy popular. I also remember archery/mental blasters being pretty crazy.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

21 hours ago, Heraclea said:

It remains the case that the set needs serious help, especially, as you note, in the 40+ game.  There has also been a longstanding desire to make Regen a tanker primary.  I rolled an experimental /Regen brute about a month and a half ago to see if such a character could be made sturdy enough to tank for teams.  With HEAVY investment in set bonuses and incarnates geared only towards survival, I was able to get the character to a place where a Willpower character would be on generic enhancements.  Instant death is a major problem.  So are click heals that don't work immediately when clicked.  It will not work as a tanker primary in its current state, 

Regen is very viable, and has been pointed out is highly rated in PvP, and yes its nerfs back in the day are examples of nerfs done in part due to pvp, and it was a good nerf. I say that as someone who had a favored bs/regen scrapper on live. And he could handle things that would wipe out the rest of his pug teams time and time again.

 

Brutes were not meant to be tanks. so them needing a true tank set like willpower rather then a scrapper set like regen, actually shows good design imo, as it lets the brute player by picking the set focus more on mindless killing rather then tanking. Peeps need to remember Brute was not the original tank AT for red side, it just kinda got shoved into that role by the player base and the devs kinda jsut threw their hands up at peoples stubborn nature.

 

MM was the red side tank counterpart. This was told by devs in forum discussions when people complained about brutes not being able to tank back on the forums over and over. So this constant position by some that a brute not being able to tank with every power set option just gets tiring. If you want to tank, make a bloody tank. Not a Brute built like a scrapper.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

20 hours ago, Gobbledygook said:

It once was capable of absorbing an alpha...

But now it's not.

Does Wolverine? Lobo? Deadpool? No they get put on their ass all the time and then self revive. Wolvy goes rage, DP goes try hard, Lobo....well he is likely bi polar on top of being a real arse.

 

Regen as is actually reflects the comic characters that it is based upon pretty damn well. a regen can self revive and mog can activate so quick that its pretty easy to get up in a middle of a mob and either fall back or just keep fighting.

 

Combine regen with Dark for to hit debuffs, or a sword set to be able to do parrying and regen ends up so damn hard to kill its crazy. Remember Parry effects melee, smashing, and lethal def. Many ranged attacks are lethal and smashing. So it also helps against many ranged attacks like you were a bloody jedi. I remade a dark regen scrapper as a sentinal here on HC and its just bloody stupid hard to kill between being able to stay ata  range, regen from everything they throw, and slip into big groups fora  nuke. I do like the way they made the self revive in sents regen more then just an oh shit button likely why I see more regen sents with self revive then regen scrappers who foolishly ignore it and MoG way to often imo.

 

Any buff to any regen power could end up making it stupid OP especially in PvP when partnered with an optimal partner set.

[Heraclea]

26 minutes ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

Regen is very viable, and has been pointed out is highly rated in PvP, and yes its nerfs back in the day are examples of nerfs done in part due to pvp, and it was a good nerf. I say that as someone who had a favored bs/regen scrapper on live. And he could handle things that would wipe out the rest of his pug teams time and time again.

Regen remains worthwhile in the under-40 game, although its flaws tend to become more obvious in the upper levels of that range.  I have a regen scrapper as well as the regen brute I mentioned.  The scrapper did not take Fighting pool. Tough and Weave on the character would be lipstick on a pig.  Running them would negate the character's one advantage: plenty of endurance at the early levels.  She does fine at what she's made for, which is stuff like soloing Ouro Positron and farming Synapse.  But she doesn't belong on incarnate raids.  Way too much burst damage she can't handle.  Way too much debuff she has no resistance to. 

 

I knew what I was getting into when I made the character here and have no regrets.  But as a scrapper or secondary Regen is enticing to start but seriously underperforms in high level content.

[Without_Pause]

1 hour ago, Mitchman said:

I remember fire/kin being crazy popular.

Still the number one combo for controllers and corruptors. Controller's combo being easily more than double the #2, Ill/rad.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

3 minutes ago, Heraclea said:

Regen remains worthwhile in the under-40 game, although its flaws tend to become more obvious in the upper levels of that range.  I have a regen scrapper as well as the regen brute I mentioned.  The scrapper did not take Fighting pool. Tough and Weave on the character would be lipstick on a pig.  Running them would negate the character's one advantage: plenty of endurance at the early levels.  She does fine at what she's made for, which is stuff like soloing Ouro Positron and farming Synapse.  But she doesn't belong on incarnate raids.  Way too much burst damage she can't handle.  Way too much debuff she has no resistance to. 

 

I knew what I was getting into when I made the character here and have no regrets.  But as a scrapper or secondary Regen is enticing to start but seriously underperforms in high level content.

Ehm cough Barrier cough. Its practically made for Regen users. Oh and as a scrapper you may consider building instead for high def by going heavy global recharge, and using Unleashed potential from Force of Will, and Shadow Meld from the patron soul mastery pool. Together they can easily keep a regen users def very padded and make them just that much harder to kill. I mean you dont need super def/res all the time just when closing with a big bad initially usually. but between all of the above a regen is perfectly fine on Itrials.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

18 minutes ago, Heraclea said:

Regen remains worthwhile in the under-40 game, although its flaws tend to become more obvious in the upper levels of that range.  I have a regen scrapper as well as the regen brute I mentioned.  The scrapper did not take Fighting pool. Tough and Weave on the character would be lipstick on a pig.  Running them would negate the character's one advantage: plenty of endurance at the early levels.  She does fine at what she's made for, which is stuff like soloing Ouro Positron and farming Synapse.  But she doesn't belong on incarnate raids.  Way too much burst damage she can't handle.  Way too much debuff she has no resistance to. 

 

I knew what I was getting into when I made the character here and have no regrets.  But as a scrapper or secondary Regen is enticing to start but seriously underperforms in high level content.

What primary offense set are you pairing with your scrappers regen if I may ask? What is your avg number of attacks to kill minions/LTs/bosses? Can they solo AVs from posi pt2 up to manticore reliably? And I am not saying you cant be nasty and use temp powers mine always carry envenomed daggers for AVs did back on live to.

[Extor Prime]

Powerset proliferation has a lot to do with this. For example aside from thematic appeal, there is little reason to run /Rad when you can run /Cold, /Dark or /Traps.

[Mitchman]

24 minutes ago, Without_Pause said:

Still the number one combo for controllers and corruptors. Controller's combo being easily more than double the #2, Ill/rad.

Yeah for sure, i was just remembering those being the "farmer" on live. Now i see /fire brutes everywhere instead.

[Lazarillo]

15 hours ago, Menelruin said:

The problem with the cottage rule is that, pretty much by definition, it makes FF pointless at Endgame.  The entire theme of FF is to buff defense....and by the time Incarnates roll around, it's pretty easy to cap anyway.

Not true.  Cottage Rule just means not taking away functionality that exists within a power and replacing it with a different functionality.  You can add new functions to a power that work on top of the originals, though.  Look at certain Blaster sustains like Touch of the Beyond and Force of Thunder.  Originally, they were a single target Terrorize and an AoE Stun/Knockback.  Now they are a single target Terrorize and an AoE Stun/Knockback that also buff the user's Regen.

 

You could do similar things with Force Field to maintain all its original purposes while adding thematically-appropriate sorts of expansions to the powers.  Maybe something like taking Force Bolt and saying "the recoil from knocking back the target fills the area around you with energy, increasing your damage and that of nearby allies for a short time".  Or by adding some +Absorb to the team buff shields on top of the Defense they already provide.

[Menelruin]

14 minutes ago, Lazarillo said:

Not true.  Cottage Rule just means not taking away functionality that exists within a power and replacing it with a different functionality.  You can add new functions to a power that work on top of the originals, though.  Look at certain Blaster sustains like Touch of the Beyond and Force of Thunder.  Originally, they were a single target Terrorize and an AoE Stun/Knockback.  Now they are a single target Terrorize and an AoE Stun/Knockback that also buff the user's Regen.

 

You could do similar things with Force Field to maintain all its original purposes while adding thematically-appropriate sorts of expansions to the powers.  Maybe something like taking Force Bolt and saying "the recoil from knocking back the target fills the area around you with energy, increasing your damage and that of nearby allies for a short time".  Or by adding some +Absorb to the team buff shields on top of the Defense they already provide.

IMO absorb is EXACTLY what FF needs.  It's thematically appropriate, and doesn't step on another set's toes too much.

[Apparition]

4 minutes ago, Menelruin said:

IMO absorb is EXACTLY what FF needs.  It's thematically appropriate, and doesn't step on another set's toes too much.

 

If the absorb mechanic was in game at Issue 0, that's what Force Field would have been.

 

IMO, strip out the +def from Dispersion Bubble, and replace it with replenishing ticks of +Absorb.  That way the other two shields still give +def, but doesn't overdo it since all that +def is no longer needed nor wanted.

Edited March 10, 2020 by Apparition

[Heraclea]

31 minutes ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

What primary offense set are you pairing with your scrappers regen if I may ask? What is your avg number of attacks to kill minions/LTs/bosses? Can they solo AVs from posi pt2 up to manticore reliably? And I am not saying you cant be nasty and use temp powers mine always carry envenomed daggers for AVs did back on live to.

The scrapper I am talking about is Fire/Regen.  All damage, no control; I did take Air Superiority on the character to give a little.  Basically a melee blaster with mez protection.  Definitely a glass cannon.  I also take Caltrops to try and mitigate burst damage.  Never attempted to solo an AV; that's why I run Old Posi which doesn't have them.   Like I said, I knew exactly what I was in for creating this character.  I have not tried to collect multiple set IO bonuses on this character; her reason for being is to farm low level content to earn merits and drops that will be used by other characters, so she is slotted mostly with un-catalyzed, frankenslotted hand me downs.

 

The experimental brute is Staff/Regen.  Primary chosen mostly because I didn't have a Staff character yet.  I also wanted an attack set with slow animations, the better to test Regen with.   With heavy IO investment including all the Brute ATO set bonuses, Tough, Weave, and Combat Jumping, and catalyzed Kinetic Combats in every single target attack, she has around 55% S/L resist and 35% defense; all else is much lower.

 

In other words, with heavy IO investment she gets to be about where a Willpower character would  be on generic SO/IOs.  The click heals do not do enough; they are not instant, they wait out animations, and by that time it's too late.  Debuff resistance is a problem; again, by IOs I've gotten her to around 405 recharge slow resist. 

 

You will not persuade me that Regen is anything other than seriously underperforming.  Fire may also be almost as unimpressive out of the box, but there isn't really a way to build an AE farm to play to Regen's strengths, either. 

[Draeth Darkstar]

I gotta be honest, I never understood the zealous adherence to the Cottage Rule the live devs had or that the Homecoming devs have continued to uphold.

 

I have never played any other game, digital or tabletop, nor worked on any software project in my 10 years of professional experience, where the designers were so staunchly committed to keeping abject failures. "Kill your darlings" is one of the first rules that every professional game designer I have ever spoken to has professed to me.

 

Force Fields needs that mentality, not the cottage rule, and it's not the only set in that state (though it probably is the worst offender).

[Obus Form]

57 minutes ago, Apparition said:

 

If the absorb mechanic was in game at Issue 0, that's what Force Field would have been.

 

IMO, strip out the +def from Dispersion Bubble, and replace it with replenishing ticks of +Absorb.  That way the other two shields still give +def, but doesn't overdo it since all that +def is no longer needed nor wanted.

The passive play of FF is exactly why I chose it.  

 

Absorb tix would be awesome on the AOE power Dispersion Bubble, but might be OP because would actually function as a pseudo heal that is strictly better than healing (refer to Pain Domination aoe regen tix) since absorb can go above 100% HP.

 

Someone also mentioned FF to have a "Reverse repel" ie. "Force crush" which would be amazing and add a level of dynamic play to the power set.

[Doc_Scorpion]

6 hours ago, DSorrow said:

If you need feedback or advice, you're several times more likely to get some if you put in some effort yourself by posting a build and asking specific questions about it rather than looking for someone to do all the work for you by re-doing an endgame build for a lower budget.

No offense, but did you even read my message?  Did you even read the part you quoted?  The part where I was specifically talking about things that aren't endgame builds?  That aren't builds at all?

 

6 hours ago, DSorrow said:

While my experience is different from yours in that many players are willing to help with a build no matter the constraints (e.g. cost) if asked, it's also not uncommon that they rather opt to give advice on how to achieve said build. Acquiring influence and IOs is so ridiculously easy that it's often more convenient to offer generic information about that topic rather than re-do a specific build for a lower cost level, plus the former guidance has more long lasting benefits for the recipient.

Thank you for so eloquently proving the point that srmalloy and I were making - in the end it always circles back to endgame builds (often expensive ones) and grinding for inf to build them.

[ShardWarrior]

On 3/9/2020 at 10:57 AM, Heraclea said:

It remains the case that the set needs serious help, especially, as you note, in the 40+ game.  There has also been a longstanding desire to make Regen a tanker primary.  I rolled an experimental /Regen brute about a month and a half ago to see if such a character could be made sturdy enough to tank for teams.  With HEAVY investment in set bonuses and incarnates geared only towards survival, I was able to get the character to a place where a Willpower character would be on generic enhancements.  Instant death is a major problem.  So are click heals that don't work immediately when clicked.  It will not work as a tanker primary in its current state, 

I would argue Regeneration does not work well regardless of AT, especially when there are far better choices out there.  All of which offer more/better survivability for less investment. 

[Heraclea]

52 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

I would argue Regeneration does not work well regardless of AT, especially when there are far better choices out there.  All of which offer more/better survivability for less investment. 

I have not tried the Sentinel version, but I understand that it works much better than the Brute/Scrapper version, due to an absorb toggle that expands available HP.  Never tried it on a Stalker, either, but theirs are often quite different as well. 

[subbacultchas]

20 hours ago, Myrmidon said:

For me, it has to be Controllers that don’t immediately spam their AoE Immobilize the moment the team makes contact. Those are about a 1 to 20 ratio with the ones that do. 
 

Now, I have to say, it does make Tanker ranged cones extremely fun to use on strung out groups.

I see this a lot, especially a lot among lowbies when running DFB or Posi 1 & 2. If I'm really tired, I probably do it myself. But the general rule is to wait 1-3 seconds and see how things things bunch up around your brutes/tanks before hitting it. 

[_NOPE_]

*Response to tons of references to FF changes*

 

There's a thread for that, where lot of those proposed changes have been mentioned. 😛

[Apparition]

13 hours ago, srmalloy said:

And that's one of the things that annoys me about most of the builds that get posted in the forums -- you see the fully twinked-out character with their two Superior ATO sets slotted, purple sets everywhere they'll fit, all the Incarnate slots opened and maxed-out, and how this all works together to make the character a juggernaut... and nothing about how they got there to give you an idea of how to go about following that build up through the levels. Some people don't have their own Fire/Spines Brute to farm tens of millions of influence to be able to pay for all of these enhancements, and if you don't have all the right T4 Incarnate powers and the purples and ATOs you're suffering from crippling End costs, or have an ugly hole in some specific defense or resistance type, and no suggestions about how to make this work, other than the obvious one of "level a build that works, accumulate several billion influence and cap your Incarnate components, and buy everything at once".

 

13 hours ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

So.  Much.  This.  There's a lot of theorycrafted builds and a few actual tested builds - but either way, they're endgame builds.  Getting advice on what powers to take when and what's skippable while leveling...  that can be like pulling teeth.  Heck, getting advice on how the play a not-top drawer-endgame build can be difficult.
 

Some people don't want to farm, they just want to play the darned game rather than run farms so you can run iTrials.

 

I can't speak for others, but every build I've posted has been tested, not theorycrafted.  Not one was power-leveled.  I solo from level 1 through level 45.  Yes, they have Superior ATO and purple sets with all of the Incarnate slots maxed out... but that's because I actually do and use those things.  You also don't have to have farm to achieve those builds.  I had four Superior ATO, purpled, and Incarnated out level 50 characters before I even made a character for farming.  How?  Reward merits.  My first level 50 character on Homecoming had over 1,300 reward merits before dinging level 50.  I played the game.  It's funny how that works.

 

As for what's skippable while leveling... What you see in one of my endgame builds is what I played while I leveled.  I have a complete level 50 character build before I begin leveling, and take powers and slot it accordingly while leveling.  I dislike respeccing, and avoid doing so if I don't have to.