General Feedback: Page 5 Build 5

[Frosticus]

25 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

Another concern, @Captain Powerhouse

 

If powers like Tar patch, Sleet and Freezing rain lose their Pseudo-pet status, will they no longer stack? That in itself is a massive hit to those powers, turning an otherwise minor change into a disastrously large hit, if so.

If this happens, no one has the right to complain. The powers literally state "does not stack from the same caster"

 

Yah I play a lot of storm and cold, it will be a hit in long static fights for sure.

 

Someone could try it right now with tarpatch though if they were so inclined.

 

 

[ScarySai]

5 hours ago, Vanden said:

Hyperbole like this doesn't help, especially when as far as I can tell, you haven't even tested the changes.

It's not hyperbole, it's a valid concern, and is a massive hit if were to work like that. How is that hyperbole? Kinda upset to see Jimmy like a post so void of substance, that's incredibly off the mark.

 

5 hours ago, Vanden said:

you haven't even tested the changes.

Don't need to taste a turd to identify one, I would hope a reasonable person could come to that conclusion through other means well before having to handle it.

Edited March 14, 2020 by ScarySai

[Number Six]

44 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

Another concern, @Captain Powerhouse

 

If powers like Tar patch, Sleet and Freezing rain lose their Pseudo-pet status, will they no longer stack? That in itself is a massive hit to those powers, turning an otherwise minor change into a disastrously large hit, if so.

Location targeted powers like Tar Patch and Freezing Rain are technically still pseudopets under the new system, so stacking behavior should not change. They just no longer have a VillainDef and all properties are defined in the power itself. Instead of spawning as Class_Pets and using those modifiers, they create an entity that is the same class as the owner and has specific powers. Critters using player classes is something that was not previously possible without copying the entire class definition and all the tables.

 

Incidentally, this is also why early versions of Galvanic Sentinel showed up as “Defender” when targeted, because they used the new tech that was intended for pseudopets.

 

Twilight Grasp on the other hand no longer uses pets at all. When you use the power it’s effectively firing off two powers at once (one is conditional on the other hitting) with different targeting and effects. So the heal is now done by the caster directly instead of by a pet.

 

Fulcrum Shift is another power that is a mess of pseudopets and is likely to be replaced by a cleaner implementation without them. I don’t expect stacking behavior on that power to change. It may be affected by AT mods, but it hasn’t been looked at yet so it may be one that they actually created different pets for different ATs anyway.

 

As with this round, any change to how those powers work would be put on beta first and subject to feedback as to the impact of the change. It’s great that so many people are passionate about the game (just please continue keeping it civil!) and if it hits a particular AT too hard the powers themselves can be adjusted.

[honoraryorange]

1 hour ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

THAT one is getting a nerf, yes.

Stop. Nerfing. Things!

 

Stop god damn nerfing things until half the sets in this game aren't trash. Fix things that aren't working well because they suck, then worry about toning down things that are powerful but not broken.

 

Just stop it.

[Galaxy Brain]

13 minutes ago, honoraryorange said:

Stop. Nerfing. Things!

 

Stop god damn nerfing things until half the sets in this game aren't trash. Fix things that aren't working well because they suck, then worry about toning down things that are powerful but not broken.

 

Just stop it.

You gotta trim the top before working the body

[Captain Powerhouse]

20 minutes ago, honoraryorange said:

Stop. Nerfing. Things!

What if the maker of the set wants it nerfed because they realized they <bleeped> up big time?

[Bopper]

😲

3 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

What if the maker of the set wants it nerfed because they realized they <bleeped> up big time?

 

[Coyotedancer]

As I understand it, the game as we know it is pretty much the RESULT of things not working the way the original devs intended them to... 

Given that? I'm not so sure the "vision" of the creator should always be given an automatic pass as the right way to do things.

 

3 even con minions = 1 hero and all that.

 

 

 

Edited March 14, 2020 by Coyotedancer

[Infinitum]

32 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

What if the maker of the set wants it nerfed because they realized they <bleeped> up big time?

The only thing they messed up was making it look like super street fighter 2 the arcade game.  lol

[Indystruck]

Making something look like SSF2 sounds like a good move, actually, since it's one of THE definitive fighting games.

 

Coincidentally, these nerfs, also a good idea, saying that as someone who's leveled up basically every possible dark set in the past. People need to stop pointing at nerfs that happened like fourteen years ago at this point as an example on why you should never look at sets ever again.

[Abacus]

59 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

What if the maker of the set wants it nerfed because they realized they <bleeped> up big time?

I disagree with it, but the main argument is that....you aren't the set makers. At least for the live sets. You are a private server with "no right" to nerf people's characters.

 

Which is silly since every server has been changing the game one way or another, but people get really offended because of it.

Edited March 14, 2020 by Magellan01

[ScarySai]

47 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

What if the maker of the set wants it nerfed because they realized they <bleeped> up big time?

Fair enough for TA, since that is your baby after all.  Personally, I think it's an amazing set that should have been how secondaries for blasters worked to begin with, and could have been a nice alternative way to build future secondaries. Either way, try not to nuke it too hard.

 

For the sets Paragon left behind for us, however - I don't agree with making so many sweeping changes in the name of balance. Personally, I think trying to balance this game like what Jack Emmert tried to do all those years ago would do more harm than good. Bring up the underperformers, nerf extreme outliers if you must, but otherwise leave it alone.

Edited March 14, 2020 by ScarySai

[honoraryorange]

2 hours ago, Faultline said:

You refuse to accept it.

God damn right. Stop nerfing things that don't need nerfs, and fix the trash sets first.

[Galaxy Brain]

3 minutes ago, honoraryorange said:

God damn right. Stop nerfing things that don't need nerfs, and fix the trash sets first.

List out which are which. I think we all have different ideas of what sets need buffs and how badly (with some exception... like EM being universally agreed upon), but on the flipside there is a large amount of the playerbase that feels the game is very easy. Simply buffing everything without modeling in some nerfs just makes it even easier.

Edited March 14, 2020 by Galaxy Brain

[Ruin Mage]

I'm more interested in seeing what Page 6 entails than I am railing against a harmless change to Tar Patch and whatever else is in the Dark changes.

[Infinitum]

18 minutes ago, Indystruck said:

Making something look like SSF2 sounds like a good move, actually, since it's one of THE definitive fighting games.

This isn't an arcadey feeling fighting game though, if I wanted that I'd be on CO.

 

19 minutes ago, Indystruck said:

People need to stop pointing at nerfs that happened like fourteen years ago at this point as an example on why you should never look at sets ever again.

EM says hello.  That's exactly why nerfs SHOULDNT be overdone and in force. Thats not like GDN or ED which was necessary for the game to progress IMO.

 

Nerfs like EM removed the fun from the set, which honestly wasnt game breaking even though it was OP.  It wasn't game breaking because it had crap AOE but made up for it in ST.

 

I could care less about TW but like a lot of people I think it needs to be OP based on how it functions, blooms late, and is rough on end.  The significant changes line is concerning, because it's only significantly OP in one scenario when paired with bio on Scrappers.

 

Nuke that does it make it unplayable for tanks and brutes? Or does it make the scrapper version not fun anymore?  That scenario should be avoided if Homecoming wants to survive - and that's not a threat, just an observation because it appears we are staring down the barrel of a huge nerf package coming up however you want to slice it may not be the best idea.

 

I can't wait to see what is in store for EM though.

[Indystruck]

 

30 minutes ago, Indystruck said:

People need to stop pointing at nerfs that happened like fourteen years ago at this point as an example on why you should never look at sets ever again.

 

1 minute ago, Infinitum said:

EM says hello. 

 

Hmmmm.

[Infinitum]

6 minutes ago, Indystruck said:

 

 

 

Hmmmm.

You can say that all you want to, but tje nerf to EM then was egregious and largely punitive for some reason.

 

It destroyed lots of characters, and made more than a few quit the game.

 

So no, it is a very good reason to bring that up so as to not repeat that mistake.

[Indystruck]

1 minute ago, Infinitum said:

You can say that all you want to, but tje nerf to EM then was egregious and largely punitive for some reason.

 

It destroyed lots of characters, and made more than a few quit the game.

 

So no, it is a very good reason to bring that up so as to not repeat that mistake.

 

The EM nerf would be old enough to drive at this point. No one involved with it is doing anything involving City of Heroes anymore. At some point you have to let go.

[Infinitum]

Just now, Indystruck said:

 

The EM nerf would be old enough to drive at this point. No one involved with it is doing anything involving City of Heroes anymore. At some point you have to let go.

No, I don't.  lol

 

My EM tank was like losing a pet that I had for 7 years.

 

So, no I don't have to let anything go because those nerfs were wrong and should serve as a very vocal reminder as to what not to do ever again.

[macskull]

6 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

EM nerfs were archaic and heavy handed yes, as we talked about it seems to have been done due to EM Stalkers in PvP... but due to the engine at the time it was a blanket nerf instead of a PvP  /Stalker only nerf.

This is categorically false. In the entire history of this game there has only been one power which received a PvE nerf for solely PvP reasons and I'm betting almost no one here knows what that power is.

[SaddestGhost]

1 hour ago, Number Six said:

Location targeted powers like Tar Patch and Freezing Rain are technically still pseudopets under the new system, so stacking behavior should not change. They just no longer have a VillainDef and all properties are defined in the power itself. Instead of spawning as Class_Pets and using those modifiers, they create an entity that is the same class as the owner and has specific powers. Critters using player classes is something that was not previously possible without copying the entire class definition and all the tables.

Perhaps I'm getting my hopes up (and sorry to pose this question a second time), but this sounds like it could address the issue with pseudopets and Domination.  Is that a fix that is being considered?  Synaptic Overload (on Live) only had an increased mag on one target, which was a bit of a bummer for doms.  Some of the other powers that would benefit (Volcanic Gasses, Shadow Field) are already quite good, but it would be nice to see them behave with respect to the AT's inherent power.

[Galaxy Brain]

Just now, macskull said:

This is categorically false. In the entire history of this game there has only been one power which received a PvE nerf for solely PvP reasons and I'm betting almost no one here knows what that power is.

I was under the impression that EM was nerfed due to PvP, but the effects of said nerf also had to be done in PvE since there was little to no separation at the time?

[Infinitum]

5 minutes ago, macskull said:

This is categorically false. In the entire history of this game there has only been one power which received a PvE nerf for solely PvP reasons and I'm betting almost no one here knows what that power is.

No, it was for stalkers, and pvp because honestly with AS and ET animating around a second WITH stuns, it wad an abusive setup.  But nerfing it across the board killed tank EM.

 

There was a ton of whining about Stalker PvP EM and that wad the origin of the nerf.  I know I was there right in the middle of it then.

[Infinitum]

Just now, Galaxy Brain said:

I was under the impression that EM was nerfed due to PvP, but the effects of said nerf also had to be done in PvE since there was little to no separation at the time?

And thats how it happened.