Please add new difficulty levels

[reib]

Please add some difficulty levels like +6/10 because game Is really TOO EASY and many AT's become useless. Toggle debuffs didnt count, control didnt count, tankers didnt count, healers are useless. Everyone have too much defence and damage. Game Is not fun no more because NO challenge. How Is possibile with my Blaster i can farm +4/8 map?! This make no sense. Please we Need challenge. Many ppl quit the game for that. It Is a Easy change to do but Is something. Please DO IT! THX for your work.

Edited March 30, 2020 by reib

[AerialAssault]

Another "game too easy" thread?

 

Yep, it's Monday.

[Lines]

Under the current mechanics of the game, +6 isn't very workable. With changes, it could be, but right now it would be very antagonistic to players.

 

A lot of great ideas other than just increasing the level margin between players have come up, especially here:

 

A lot of naysayers and memes, too, sadly...

[Sakura Tenshi]

2 hours ago, reib said:

Please add some difficulty levels like +6/10 because game Is really TOO EASY and many AT's become useless. Toggle debuffs didnt count, control didnt count, tankers didnt count, healers are useless. Everyone have too much defence and damage. Game Is not fun no more because NO challenge. How Is possibile with my Blaster i can farm +4/8 map?! This make no sense. Please we Need challenge. Many ppl quit the game for that. It Is a Easy change to do but Is something. Please DO IT! THX for your work.

in theory, if you want a real challenge for this game, you basically just need to 'unlock' hardmode by reaching the appropriate levels. Then you can run the ouroboros arcs with the enemies buffed and possible you yourself debuffed among other limiters. Have you tried that?

[Taboo]

3 hours ago, reib said:

Please add some difficulty levels like +6/10 because game Is really TOO EASY and many AT's become useless. Toggle debuffs didnt count, control didnt count, tankers didnt count, healers are useless. Everyone have too much defence and damage. Game Is not fun no more because NO challenge. How Is possibile with my Blaster i can farm +4/8 map?! This make no sense. Please we Need challenge. Many ppl quit the game for that. It Is a Easy change to do but Is something. Please DO IT! THX for your work.

No

[SwitchFade]

Sorry, have to no vote.

 

The short answer is, you would have to rewrite most of the game.

 

Also, there are tens of other threads just like 5his, I suggest adding your ideas to the most meaningful one.

[ShardWarrior]

5 hours ago, reib said:

Please add some difficulty levels like +6/10

There would need to be changes to the aggro cap in order to accomplish this.  Adding in +6 or higher does not solve the problem.  The way the game works, anything above +5 and you will have difficulty hitting it if it all. 

 

The answer is not adding higher difficulty settings.  The solution is creating content that is specifically designed for and balanced around Incarnates and IOs at endgame level.

[Hyperstrike]

6 hours ago, reib said:

Please add some difficulty levels like +6/10 because game Is really TOO EASY and many AT's become useless. Toggle debuffs didnt count, control didnt count, tankers didnt count, healers are useless. Everyone have too much defence and damage. Game Is not fun no more because NO challenge. How Is possibile with my Blaster i can farm +4/8 map?! This make no sense. Please we Need challenge. Many ppl quit the game for that. It Is a Easy change to do but Is something. Please DO IT! THX for your work.

/jranger  (aka: NO)

As has been pointed out, it'd require major rewrites in the game code and STILL wouldn't yield what you want.

If things are too "easy", you have a VERY simple solution.

STOP USING HEAVILY OPTIMIZED BUILDS.

On live,  such builds were exceptionally rare, due to the time and cost of assembling such a setup.

Things are significantly easier here.
So if you want to reintroduce challenge into the game, limit yourself to what you could have reasonably gotten together on live for a set budget.
And you don't even have to destroy your uber-build!
Simply go with an alt-build.

Simple.
Straightforward.
Requires no massive, pointless changes to the game code.

[Burnt Toast]

And.... it's Monday apparently.

[reib]

6 hours ago, Sakura Tenshi said:

in theory, if you want a real challenge for this game, you basically just need to 'unlock' hardmode by reaching the appropriate levels. Then you can run the ouroboros arcs with the enemies buffed and possible you yourself debuffed among other limiters. Have you tried that?

Yes but not many people doing that, mostly when you LFT you find TF's and normal storyarcs.

Raise the mobs level was Just an exemple...insert a option to buff mobs Is another option. Dont think the answer can be "do a bad build" guys. Doing a good build Is a huge part of the fun. The problem Is not Just "me", mostly i play with random people than i can't control their builds (lvl 50 Blaster LFT bad builds only, c'mon...) And Is no true on Live the maxed build was rare. Had farm in live too and many many people was full IO's like now. I still prefere the game when the maximum level was 40. Was more balanced and fun but if they add content and options people like to Explore It and max the build. Thats normal. If you add more Power you have to add more difficult content i think.

Edited March 30, 2020 by reib

[Naraka]

1 hour ago, Hyperstrike said:

/jranger  (aka: NO)

You're bastardizing the joke if you /jranger and then follow up with an entire post explaining why you're saying no.

 

1 hour ago, Hyperstrike said:

STOP USING HEAVILY OPTIMIZED BUILDS.

 

About a quarter, if not a third, of the game is picking powers, customizing a build and slotting enhancements.  To tell people not to use their preferred builds is like saying don't play a good chunk of the game.

 

But when are we going to tackle the issue?  Because some of us already cordon off a portion of the game, not overly optimizing their builds, play on smaller teams and avoid max level and STILL find the game feels like it's using kid gloves.  There's also no incentive to debuff yourself (just shave off a chunk of your build slotting that is a portion of playing the game).

 

Lastly, I don't see a difference with making a thread asking for a means of adding team or solo content (via more difficulty settings) vs asking to have this set or that "helped out".  They're all suggestions on a forum meant to post suggestions.

[ShardWarrior]

1 hour ago, Naraka said:

But when are we going to tackle the issue? 

When new content specifically designed for and balanced around fully kitted Incarnates is created.

[Naraka]

8 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

When new content specifically designed for and balanced around fully kitted Incarnates is created.

I was moreso talking about discussion as it seemed a lot of people want to deflect or stunt discussion about difficulty and power balance.  By no means are we meant to only discuss or seek solutions *after* we get new content.

[Infinitum]

7 hours ago, Lines said:

Under the current mechanics of the game, +6 isn't very workable. With changes, it could be, but right now it would be very antagonistic to players.

 

A lot of great ideas other than just increasing the level margin between players have come up, especially here:

 

A lot of naysayers and memes, too, sadly...

I find it very fulfilling that every time this thread is referenced my meme is front and center.  lol

[Pine]

Have you soloed +4x8 Awakened mobs? Even better as mentioned above, add in Players debuffed and enemies buffed to TFs and it will be really hard.

[Hyperstrike]

3 hours ago, Naraka said:

About a quarter, if not a third, of the game is picking powers, customizing a build and slotting enhancements.  To tell people not to use their preferred builds is like saying don't play a good chunk of the game.

There is nothing saying that you have to use a a heavily optimized build designed to spackle over every last "deficiency" in your AT/power combo.
It's like sticking a 1000 hp engine in a VW Beetle and then complaining about all the tickets you get because of your lead foot.

Again, not using a uber-optimized build and STILL being successful is part of the challenge in the game.

 

Quote

But when are we going to tackle the issue?  Because some of us already cordon off a portion of the game, not overly optimizing their builds, play on smaller teams and avoid max level and STILL find the game feels like it's using kid gloves.  There's also no incentive to debuff yourself (just shave off a chunk of your build slotting that is a portion of playing the game).

 

Lastly, I don't see a difference with making a thread asking for a means of adding team or solo content (via more difficulty settings) vs asking to have this set or that "helped out".  They're all suggestions on a forum meant to post suggestions.

Just so we're clear.  You (not necessarily YOU (first person)) are complaining that the game is "too easy" with your uber-build, and therefore "not fun".
But you then turn around and say that there's "no incentive" to use anything other than an uber-build?

 

I know, I know.  You want a higher rewards table...

HOWEVER, at that point we're no longer talking about "fun".  You're talking about greater remuneration for your time.

Why not just ask the devs to institute a "Gimme 2B Inf and 10 of every ultra-rare-thing-out-there" button and call it done?

As for tweaking sets?  Usually there's a great deal of math behind a set's output.  And if something is too great an outlier, it'll eventually get normalized if you bring it to the devs' attention.

That's a completely different animal from "Make things harder and more rewarding".

Edited March 30, 2020 by Hyperstrike

[Naraka]

4 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

There is nothing saying that you have to use a a heavily optimized build designed to spackle over every last "deficiency" in your AT/power combo.
It's like sticking a 1000 hp engine in a VW Beetle and then complaining about all the tickets you get because of your lead foot.
 

Having a build that isn't intentionally gimped or happens to use some IOs doesn't equal "heavily optimized" so you probably could stop using that.  Any competent team of 4 that has cohesive power choices and synergetic collaborative tactics can make a lot of content trivially easy.  Add another 4 team members on top of that and you get steamroll.

 

Your repeated emojis seem like you don't understand that.  Do you actually not understand a "standard" build can use IO procs, franken-slotted attacks and a few sets to iron out some endurance management or having a support oriented build utilizing a well rounded set of support can make the content quite easy?  I thought this was common knowledge that people were steamrolling things before IOs.

 

11 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

I know, I know.  You want a higher rewards table...

HOWEVER, at that point we're no longer talking about "fun".  You're talking about greater remuneration for your time.

Why not just ask the devs to institute a "Gimme 2B Inf and 10 of every ultra-rare-thing-out-there" button and call it done?

As for tweaking sets?  Usually there's a great deal of math behind a set's output.  And if something is too great an outlier, it'll eventually get normalized if you bring it to the devs' attention.

That's a completely different animal from "Make things harder and more rewarding".

Did you want me to reply to this seriously?  It would be embarrassing for you if I did so I thought I'd ask first.

[Doomrider]

Builds don't cost 2B inf anymore... ppl really need to stop echoing this. While this held true back on live, It simply does not apply on HC and to suggest that top end builds still require that level of monetary investment is just being hyperbolic.
Sure, people can spend 2B inf if they really wish to... but it's far from necessary.

[Galaxy Brain]

2 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

Just so we're clear.  You (not necessarily YOU (first person)) are complaining that the game is "too easy" with your uber-build, and therefore "not fun".
But you then turn around and say that there's "no incentive" to use anything other than an uber-build?

 

I know, I know.  You want a higher rewards table...

HOWEVER, at that point we're no longer talking about "fun".  You're talking about greater remuneration for your time.

Why not just ask the devs to institute a "Gimme 2B Inf and 10 of every ultra-rare-thing-out-there" button and call it done?

As for tweaking sets?  Usually there's a great deal of math behind a set's output.  And if something is too great an outlier, it'll eventually get normalized if you bring it to the devs' attention.

Edited just now by Hyperstrike

I want to touch on this real quick, as the "uber-build" is a bit of a misnomer. 

 

IO's are multiplicative. With some exception, such as Energy Blast and Force Feedback, IO's and their bonuses really just push what a character can naturally do but better. Even if we ignored the Set Bonuses and unique perks (Procs, Unique Bonuses, etc), IO sets offer much better enhancement value. Frankenslotting 6 IO's can give you essentially 8 SO's worth of effectiveness. Add in the bonuses on top of that, and you naturally hit harder, faster, more reliably, and have better damage mitigation than you would otherwise by a little bit.

 

The game naturally leans you towards this as well by having recipes drop from content. A new player jumping in will naturally get recipes and will likely inquire as to what they are and how to use them, either by themselves by stumbling upon Montague in your find contacts and seeing the universities, or asking other players which inevitably opens the floodgates into IOs and builds. New players coming into the game have likely played other games as well seeing as its the year 2020, and even games like Assassin's Creed have set bonuses for matching equipment so its not exactly a forgeign concept to have people craft items that when paired give extra goodies. By nature, most players will also want to make their characters better as they play. It could be by slotting whatever enhancements drop from mobs / buying from stores, or going one extra step and crafting. It's a perfectly normal and expected thing to do.

 

New players have likely played other systems similar to this to where it is not some massive hurdle to figure it out. New players also probably got intorduced to CoH by a vet, and likely they are helping them learn the ropes with this too. In today's age, we have FB, Reddit, and Discord + these forums to easily share info on how IO's / Builds work. Vets coming back to this game came from a game where IO builds were around for the vast majority of the game's lifespan before closure. Building up your character beyond the basic level is likely the norm. This does not mean "uber builds costing 948621974862389475234 inf", but I firmly believe the average character is much stronger than intended already due to the above factors.

 

The reason I bring all that up is that you do not really need an uber build depending on the AT and the Player in order to trivialize content. I know that many players out there can solo 4/8 before level 50, which leaves out a whole lot of slots, power picks, Purple Sets and Incarnates. Sometimes there are power combos that are simply that strong, like my Bot/Trap/Mu back on live that could solo max difficulty from lvl 38ish onwards when I got the electric fences. But, with the general power level of players going up that means they can more easily tackle these things, and in turn cause some team dynamics to shift. We see this with sets like Force Field where the more defense players naturally have, the more and more the +Def focus of Force Field is lessened in terms of what they provide. The more damage potential and survival tools players have, the less intrinsic need for crowd control there is as you can just brute force through opposition faster via the ultimate Mez (killing enemies before they can really hurt you). So on and so forth. 

 

Overall I think this is a good thing, as IOs have let us be incredibly creative about how we boost ourselves up. Hell, this is why I kind of don't like the Uber Builds as you know what's gonna be in there: the same 3-4 purple sets, a winter set, and the same couple of places to put the useful LotG / Health Procs. However those are really just for absolutely pushing your character to the limit. Conservative IO builds I believe already push players past what the game expects of them and that in turn makes all sorts of content a bit outdated, and that is more common than we probably all think.

 

 

[Hyperstrike]

6 minutes ago, Doomrider said:

Builds don't cost 2B inf anymore... ppl really need to stop echoing this. While this held true back on live, It simply does not apply on HC and to suggest that top end builds still require that level of monetary investment is just being hyperbolic.
Sure, people can spend 2B inf if they really wish to... but it's far from necessary.

In the end, just about everything in-game still breaks down to an Inf-Equivalent value.
Just because you're using Reward Merits, tickets, etc to acquire something makes no difference.

[Greycat]

No AT is useless.

 

And what's a "Healer?"

[Hyperstrike]

29 minutes ago, Naraka said:

Having a build that isn't intentionally gimped or happens to use some IOs doesn't equal "heavily optimized" so you probably could stop using that. 

Define "gimped" in a way that is both grammatically correct, usage-correct and inoffensive.

And I'm not talking about a build that "happens to use some IOs".
I'm talking about the heavily min-maxed builds (such as some of the stuff I've been known to turn out).
There's an actual qualitative (and definitely quantitative) difference.
So no.  I won't stop using it, as the usage is correct.

 

 

29 minutes ago, Naraka said:

Any competent team of 4 that has cohesive power choices and synergetic collaborative tactics can make a lot of content trivially easy.  Add another 4 team members on top of that and you get steamroll.

Having been on many "less than optimal" teams in the last 12 years, I'm going to say that your example is HIGHLY conditional, and leave it at that.

 

29 minutes ago, Naraka said:

Your repeated emojis seem like you don't understand that.

Insert <HUMOR> tags...
Trying to keep it light without talking down to anyone.
 

29 minutes ago, Naraka said:

Do you actually not understand a "standard" build can use IO procs, franken-slotted attacks and a few sets to iron out some endurance management or having a support oriented build utilizing a well rounded set of support can make the content quite easy?  I thought this was common knowledge that people were steamrolling things before IOs.

Again, you and I are talking about COMPLETELY different things when we're talking about heavily optimized builds.
You seem to think that the mere presence of IOs is "heavy optimization".
And I'm talking about a build relying on a complex confluence of bonuses and special effects SPECIFICALLY designed to trivialize 99.9% of the content in the game.

 

29 minutes ago, Naraka said:

Did you want me to reply to this seriously?  It would be embarrassing for you if I did so I thought I'd ask first.

It'd be embarrassing for someone.  Especially if replying to something that was not said, or even intended.

[Hyperstrike]

2 minutes ago, Greycat said:

No AT is useless.

 

And what's a "Healer?"

No AT is useless.

That's not to say that a build can't be so badly broken as to BE useless.

[reib]

21 minutes ago, Greycat said:

No AT is useless.

 

And what's a "Healer?"

A Blaster can take alpha, can heal themself (and others), can have enough defence to avoid almost any hit, can have 3 Holds in some case, and lol with incarnate can have more damage, more heal and -regen or -res too. Than why i have to add a tank and a empath to my team? Just add Blasters and more blasters and you are fine. I done a ITF with a team of 6 blasters only. was One of the faster TF i ever seen. You really don't think this Is broken? 

And i absolutely dont care about rewards. I only talk about FUN and CHALLENGE. It Is a game and any good game Need those two components.

Edited March 30, 2020 by reib

[Hyperstrike]

12 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

I want to touch on this real quick, as the "uber-build" is a bit of a misnomer. 

 

Generally what I'm talking about is a build designed to maximize survivability in any of a number of ways, usually relying on a complex confluence of set bonuses and special powers/conditions.

Not just finding one big bonus and "Rule of Five"ing it.
But chasing down multiple similar bonuses and taking all of them to a greater/lesser extent.

I am NOT talking about generic IO build with most of the desireable uniques in the game shoved in.

 

12 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

The game naturally leans you towards this as well by having recipes drop from content. A new player jumping in will naturally get recipes and will likely inquire as to what they are and how to use them, either by themselves by stumbling upon Montague in your find contacts and seeing the universities, or asking other players which inevitably opens the floodgates into IOs and builds. New players coming into the game have likely played other games as well seeing as its the year 2020, and even games like Assassin's Creed have set bonuses for matching equipment so its not exactly a forgeign concept to have people craft items that when paired give extra goodies. By nature, most players will also want to make their characters better as they play. It could be by slotting whatever enhancements drop from mobs / buying from stores, or going one extra step and crafting. It's a perfectly normal and expected thing to do.

 

Yes, the progress of the game eventually makes heavily optimized builds achievable.  Moreso with heavy farming of Inf and Merits.
On Live, the market would limit availability, even with infinite Inf.

Now, with the P2W vendor and direct Merit purchase...

In the end though, we still have the issue of building a character designed to trivialize 99.9% of the game.
Then complaining that the game's trivial now...