Homecoming Server Update (April 5th): Nemesis Plots, Contests and Progression

[Herotu]

16 hours ago, Acroyear said:

Not thrilled by the planned change to Enhancements. Making it so you just have to push a button to update your enhancements means characters will never go to a store or vendor, which means less characters moving around the game world. This, to me, is just more power creep coming into the game, which is already very easy as it is now. I would ask the Devs serioulsy rethink this plan. 

It's like if they added Pocket D to Atlas Park, right?

 

It's like bases with loads of teleporters.

 

Hubs and remote access convenience stuff make games both more modern - everything is at our fingertips via the internet these days,

,,,but also less fun - we don't have to travel around int he game anymore! Why make a world if we don't have to use it? 

So where do we strike the balance? SHOULD the game embrace a setting of mid-2000s and bin the convenience stuff, saying, for example,  "NO! We don't need to update all the CRT monitors to LCD instead."?

Edited April 7, 2020 by Herotu

[Myrmidon]

19 hours ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

Other than their being no TO's, that's exactly how the system currently works - it only upgrades the levels within the type.  Which means you can have lvl 33 DO's...  Which is odd, but works withing what I understand to be the larger goal of the system.  (Which is to eliminate the largely pointless trips to the vendor simply to "green up".)

High level DOs, you say? There is a difficulty option there for people that want it (playing to 50 on DOs).

[Skywise]

I for one like the proposed changes.  I am a casual gamer, mostly solo, light role player, altaholic, and played the original game from beta til sunset.  I currently have about 100 alts, only 4 of which I've bothered to take to 50+.  I've played the low level content (sub 22) through enough times to have exhausted all the different ways it can go.  Like many, I now either DFB or use my multibox farmer (during offtimes) to PL my toons up to 22 or so to get SO's.  I craft common IO's at 25 or 30 but rarely go the uber route on sets.  For me, the game is fun when I'm making a new toon, playing with a new power combination (keep them coming!), and sometimes finding a new friend to play small teams with.  Large teams on task forces or radio mish teams just feel like DFB clones to me, run and gun.  The proposed changes will be a welcome change for me because it lets me do what I love, playing the game, rather than hanging around a store or crafting table.  Thank you devs.  And to all my fellow heroes I say, play the game in the way you most enjoy.  I recommend writing a bio for all of your toons and play them the way you would like to read if they had a comic book, but that's me.  The beauty of this game has always been the flexibility of play.  Many games force you to PvP or whatever.  COX is all about doing your own thing any way you want.  Remember why you fell in love with this game in the first place.  Then, invite new friends in and take them for a flight around our city.  They will be hooked.

[Voltor]

Eh, its been a long, long time since I used DO and SO, I just go straight to IO.  My badge hunters seek all the badges including the crafting ones so I make sure that some L10 and L15 IO's are in base storage for new alts, when it comes time to respec and install set IO's the regular IO's get sold in AH.

 

 

[Sovera]

The change to SOs is very appreciated. I still won't be using them, of course, once I'm at 22 (because IOs are a one time purchase). But depending on the raw numbers I can see myself stuffing every character with accuracy (because /Bio with baked in To-Hit in offensive, + a kismet + probably Tactics still isn't enough to reliably hit through Ruin Mages.

 

That said it really depends on the raw numbers offered because I can/could do the same with level 10 IOs at level 7 and have it be a one time purchase until 22. Last time I did this level 10 IOs were 5k for a one time purchase. SOs really need to be competitive to beat this.

[Peerless Girl]

8 hours ago, Rahveryn said:

So, I have spent alot of time with new friends in the last few weeks, I just introduced to CoH.  They are still in that phase where they make several new characters phase, so I've spent alot of time in the level 1-25 range this past month.  So this is my experiance and opinion from that recent focus.

 

 

This is more or less exactly how I feel. I snipped the post for brevity, but, that matches my experience as an old player as well.

4 hours ago, Li_Sensei said:

Am I the only person who came back to this game and *still* hasn't done a single DfB.

 

At all.

 

On any of my 16 or so alts?

 

I'll be over it the crusty old folks corner, then.

 

Nope, I haven't done it a single time. One of these days I will. I'm already in the Old Folks corner.

[Peacemoon]

1 hour ago, Herotu said:

It's like if they added Pocket D to Atlas Park, right?

 

It's like bases with loads of teleporters.

 

Hubs and remote access convenience stuff make games both more modern - everything is at our fingertips via the internet these days,

,,,but also less fun - we don't have to travel around int he game anymore! Why make a world if we don't have to use it? 

So where do we strike the balance? SHOULD the game embrace a setting of mid-2000s and bin the convenience stuff, saying, for example,  "NO! We don't need to update all the CRT monitors to LCD instead."?

I think there are two different developmental philosophies.

One is to embrace the journey, the other is the reward of the destination.

 

One is not really meaningful without the other. People need the destination as something to aim towards, otherwise their journey is over before it begins. While the journey is the game we all play together and gives our story some weight, but without a destination to aim towards or regular, meaningful progress, it feel like an unrewarding meander. 
 

The biggest developmental folly I find is that as games get older, the journey becomes increasingly trivialised, either through experience and players getting better, or eroded from increased power and new rewards. This is true of all games, from City of Heroes to World of Warcraft, to FPS games:

 

Of course there is the argument that after 15 years, do we still want the journey? But of course without the journey, we might as well all log in at level 50 with every IO available for free. It would be fun for a short period of time, but quickly gets boring. Really by continuing to maintain the player journey and keeping it relevant, you keep the game relevant and alive. A game where the journey becomes irrelevant and it’s all about the destination will start to decay and die.

 

So I’ve gone on a meander myself. But maybe this explains why I care about power creep; I really value the player journey and the stories we tell as we undertake it. I feel like the more that is eroded the more harm it will cause to this game long term. Enhancements are massively overdue a complete overhaul, which I’m in favour of, but I’d like to keep player power trajectory roughly the same as it is now (discounting outliers like massively expensive low level builds, etc). This makes me quite conservative in some areas, but I’m not against radical change where it is needed. 

In terms of portalling around, it’s all about moderation. How much fast travel is too much? Personally I’m not a huge fan of the /baseenter command, or /ah, because I feel like it takes more from the game then it gives. There are lots of little nice things it takes away which when you add them all up, can be a bit of a shame. At least with the Ouroboros portal there are more built in restrictions, on both availability and destinations. But that’s a bit off topic. 

[justicebeliever]

I'm going to admit I haven't read all 7 pages, so my thoughts my be repetitive

• This is supposed to be fun, even for the volunteers!  I'm glad to see Dev's using time to work on things they care about and find easy ways to execute them.  Kudo's

• Sounds like we aren't replacing TO's at this point, or DO's, just making SO's more likely to appear.  If that means more people to team with on lower level missions, then I am all for it.

• I'm am wondering at this point, what is the value proposition for IO's that start at level 10.  They are worse than SO's, and much more expensive than DO's despite being on par in ability to DO's.  Should we just remove IO's until level 25?  Reset the Steel Canyon tutorial for later in the game?

[Herotu]

23 minutes ago, Peacemoon said:

I think there are two different developmental philosophies.

One is to embrace the journey, the other is the reward of the destination.

 

One is not really meaningful without the other. People need the destination as something to aim towards, otherwise their journey is over before it begins. While the journey is the game we all play together and gives our story some weight, but without a destination to aim towards or regular, meaningful progress, it feel like an unrewarding meander. 
 

The biggest developmental folly I find is that as games get older, the journey becomes increasingly trivialised, either through experience and players getting better, or eroded from increased power and new rewards. This is true of all games, from City of Heroes to World of Warcraft, to FPS games:

 

Of course there is the argument that after 15 years, do we still want the journey? But of course without the journey, we might as well all log in at level 50 with every IO available for free. It would be fun for a short period of time, but quickly gets boring. Really by continuing to maintain the player journey and keeping it relevant, you keep the game relevant and alive. A game where the journey becomes irrelevant and it’s all about the destination will start to decay and die.

 

So I’ve gone on a meander myself. But maybe this explains why I care about power creep; I really value the player journey and the stories we tell as we undertake it. I feel like the more that is eroded the more harm it will cause to this game long term. Enhancements are massively overdue a complete overhaul, which I’m in favour of, but I’d like to keep player power trajectory roughly the same as it is now (discounting outliers like massively expensive low level builds, etc). This makes me quite conservative in some areas, but I’m not against radical change where it is needed. 

I think if I were to redesign the game, the "levelling journey" would be the Hero/Villain "learning their powers" - it's their origin story! 

At "end game" it'd be saving the world from existential threats. I guess that's sort-of where we are - but other players have different theory in their heads.

Maybe that flexibility of concept is what's good about the game, or maybe that's a bad thing.. I don't know.

[ArchVileTerror]

Flexibility is definitely good.  I sure as hell don't want my characters' story arcs decided with a predestination.  This isn't that kind of game.  This is a game where the player -creates- their character; not selecting a premade default and not being forced to play just a single pre-scripted protagonist.  

But, even then, story arcs -do- exist in this game for the players who -do- want that sort of experience.

As people keep saying:  City of Heroes (and Villains) is the MMO all about player choice.  THAT is its greatest strength, and what a lot of people want the Devs to focus on.  Just check out:  https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/17412-what-makes-coh-great/

 

This really should be addressed in the current Topic of the Week, of course.

https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/17506-weekly-discussion-45-favorite-and-least-favorite-story-lines/

 

But you do raise an excellent point about ludonarrative dissonance (even if that wasn't necessarily your intent).  Game mechanics and game story generally provide a more cohesive player experience when the two are working together, rather than working against one another.

The game rules and mechanics of City of Heroes are such a grab-bag (for a lot of reasons) that it ultimately becomes a bit of a matter of each individual player selecting which mechanics they view as "in-character" and which ones they view as merely conveniences or time-sinks.

I mean, I personally roleplay that /baseenterpasscode command is my character utilizing the MediPort system to get where they want to go in a hurry.  It's amoral, possibly even illegal!  But then, most of my characters are Rogues, Vigilantes, and Villains anyway . . . so . . . *shrugs*  'porters gonna 'port.

 

As for this new Upgrade thing?  Yeeeeeah . . . this one is pretty much straight up a gameplay convenience.  I haven't thought of any reasonable and rational in-narrative explanation for it.  Oh well!  It's still a good quality of life improvement experiment.

And I do emphasize "experiment."  It will be interesting to see how it evolves.

[Rathulfr]

3 hours ago, thunderforce said:

No. I'd quite like to see what it's like at some point; ideally with a group all of whom have hilariously outlevelled it. 😉

Like all TFs, DFB will automatically exemplar you down to its level, so you'll start at level 2 and with only those powers you have up to level 7.  You'd still have your enhancements, of course, but they'd be scaled down in effectiveness, as well.  And I'm not sure that any of the set bonuses work that far down: maybe the purple and PvP sets.  I honestly don't know about that.  Anyway: it's a cake walk for level 2's without any Enhancements, so it definitely won't present any challenge for higher levels, either.

[ScarySai]

2 hours ago, Herotu said:

So where do we strike the balance? SHOULD the game embrace a setting of mid-2000s and bin the convenience stuff, saying, for example,  "NO! We don't need to update all the CRT monitors to LCD instead."?

Stuff like this is fine, I'd say. Something like the teleporting dev command would not be fine.

 

I'm generally for QoL and updating the clunk, so long as mechanics are left intact and the changes are largely positive. For example, I'm very much against the dark miasma changes. Technically correct and a 'fix'? Perhaps, but the set's as old as the game and this only serves to nerf existing /dark characters. Leave it alone.

Edited April 7, 2020 by ScarySai

[Doc_Scorpion]

1 hour ago, Sovera said:

That said it really depends on the raw numbers offered because I can/could do the same with level 10 IOs at level 7 and have it be a one time purchase until 22. Last time I did this level 10 IOs were 5k for a one time purchase. SOs really need to be competitive to beat this.

SO's are already competitive - you're spending less money with IO's, but you also get less for your money.  Those lvl 10 IO's are roughly equivalent to a -3 DO.  Level 25 IO's are roughly equivalent to even level SO's.  IO's don't beat even level SO's until lvl 30, and don't beat +3 SO's until lvl 40.  (This is something that IO proponents forget to mention, if they even know that they're gimping their characters.)

The intelligent choice between DO/SO and IO isn't just about money.
 

1 hour ago, Peacemoon said:

The biggest developmental folly I find is that as games get older, the journey becomes increasingly trivialised, either through experience and players getting better, or eroded from increased power and new rewards. This is true of all games, from City of Heroes to World of Warcraft, to FPS games:

In COX's case, it's not all development.  It may not be development at all.  Something... changed in COX's social meta during the Years Of Darkness.  It may be due to the changes in the game made to suit a microscopic population.  It may be due to the influence of WoW.  But the current HC social meta is no longer "the journey is the reward", it's shifted radically towards "the game begins at 50".  (I was all but openly mocked for testing Dark Melee in the single digit level during the Page 5 beta - that would never have happened in the OG.)  That grind-and-raid mindset is particularly toxic in CoH because there is little to no endgame content.

[Peerless Girl]

12 minutes ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

In COX's case, it's not all development.  It may not be development at all.  Something... changed in COX's social meta during the Years Of Darkness.  It may be due to the changes in the game made to suit a microscopic population.  It may be due to the influence of WoW.  But the current HC social meta is no longer "the journey is the reward", it's shifted radically towards "the game begins at 50".  (I was all but openly mocked for testing Dark Melee in the single digit level during the Page 5 beta - that would never have happened in the OG.)  That grind-and-raid mindset is particularly toxic in CoH because there is little to no endgame content.

I don't see that at all. The "game begins at 50" thing began with Paragon when the ITrials and Incarnate stuff went in. It's never been true of CoH though, and never will be. Some people SEE it that way, and are used to that attitude from WoW and other games, but it's certainly not true in CoH, especially since, as you pointed out, there is no endgame content (yet). That's what "Coming Storm"/Battalion was supposed to be; we're not there yet. 

[ArchVileTerror]

I do worry about the focus on endgame; have since the beginning.  Incarnate content in particular.

I know no small number people enjoy it, so I do not advocate its removal . . . but there's so much of it already.  I would like to encourage more incentives and content at all -other- levels.

But eh.  That's me.  There are other priorities, clearly.

[Peacemoon]

5 minutes ago, ArchVileTerror said:

I do worry about the focus on endgame; have since the beginning.  Incarnate content in particular.

I know no small number people enjoy it, so I do not advocate its removal . . . but there's so much of it already.  I would like to encourage more incentives and content at all -other- levels.

But eh.  That's me.  There are other priorities, clearly.

CoH has always developed new content for all levels, to keep it fresh. I really enjoyed first ward/night ward as this was released after I finished playing, and is solely 20-40!

[Sovera]

9 minutes ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

SO's are already competitive - you're spending less money with IO's, but you also get less for your money.  Those lvl 10 IO's are roughly equivalent to a -3 DO.  Level 25 IO's are roughly equivalent to even level SO's.  IO's don't beat even level SO's until lvl 30, and don't beat +3 SO's until lvl 40.  (This is something that IO proponents forget to mention, if they even know that they're gimping their characters.)

The intelligent choice between DO/SO and IO isn't just about money.
 

In COX's case, it's not all development.  It may not be development at all.  Something... changed in COX's social meta during the Years Of Darkness.  It may be due to the changes in the game made to suit a microscopic population.  It may be due to the influence of WoW.  But the current HC social meta is no longer "the journey is the reward", it's shifted radically towards "the game begins at 50".  (I was all but openly mocked for testing Dark Melee in the single digit level during the Page 5 beta - that would never have happened in the OG.)  That grind-and-raid mindset is particularly toxic in CoH because there is little to no endgame content.

It takes me an hour and a half to reach 22, and about two days to reach level 50 just cruising through the TFs. The 'gimping' is more than paid by not having to go and shop for new stuff every few levels. Maybe if someone was leveling slowly by solo I could see it trying to get the most of their enhancements, but if trying for the most then most will do as I do which is slotting normal ATOs and event IOs like Avalanche from level ten onwards.

 

I am finding it funny you call IO users gimping themselves when you are in favor of, say, at 25, having, +3 boosted, 38% accuracy, 98% damage, with four slots, or have 20% accuracy, 75% damage, 36% recharge and 36% endurance discount, 1.5% res to fire/cold, 1.5% HP, and 3.75% S/L defense from four Kinetic Combat. Which one is gimped I'll leave it to the mathmagicians to math it out.

 

 

 

Regarding the second part of your comment, I remember you posting your findings. You don't seem to have understood that when people 'almost open mocked you' was because even without double XP single digit levels fly past too quickly to be something of a concern.

 

You remind me of the people complaining bitterly how characters were stronger when low level as they entered WoW's last expansion, BfA, because the devs had put in a mechanic that boosts the power of lowbies so they could get past the fact they might not have gear to tackle the new content, but by level 115-117 that boost disappeared making a character go slower... until 120 where they started accumulating real gear.

 

Their complaint was based on how their farm characters were so much stronger if they A) got twink gear, B) froze XP to stay 115 forever. This is not something that ought to be worried about, just like your worry that a character's half hour at single digit levels might be hurt by the buffs that DM otherwise received.

[skoryy]

53 minutes ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

In COX's case, it's not all development.  It may not be development at all.  Something... changed in COX's social meta during the Years Of Darkness.  It may be due to the changes in the game made to suit a microscopic population.  It may be due to the influence of WoW.  But the current HC social meta is no longer "the journey is the reward", it's shifted radically towards "the game begins at 50".  (I was all but openly mocked for testing Dark Melee in the single digit level during the Page 5 beta - that would never have happened in the OG.)  That grind-and-raid mindset is particularly toxic in CoH because there is little to no endgame content.

To paraphrase, "this is the sixth time we have leveled a theme park MMO character, and we have become exceedingly efficient at it."   Its been sixteen years since 2004, we know all the beats, know all the kill alls and fetch quests, know the metas, and know the feeling of being incredibly underpowered compared to the alts you already have at max level.  I've seen differing attempts at re-inventing leveling - I see you TSW and TESO - but in the end its still all about growing a character when you already have characters fully grown.  We've been there before, frankly we're kinda bored with it, so we say "Get on with it" and hop on the powerlevel train.  It is what it is.

[Doc_Scorpion]

42 minutes ago, Sovera said:

It takes me an hour and a half to reach 22, and about two days to reach level 50 just cruising through the TFs. The 'gimping' is more than paid by not having to go and shop for new stuff every few levels.

Then obviously what I said doesn't apply to you.  But you couldn't resist and just had to get in a dig at me.
 

42 minutes ago, Sovera said:

Regarding the second part of your comment, I remember you posting your findings. You don't seem to have understood that when people 'almost open mocked you' was because even without double XP single digit levels fly past too quickly to be something of a concern.

Of course, it's just not possible that the folks mocking me for not playing the One True Way are the ones lacking in understanding...  To that end, I will repeat what I said there and have said many times before and since in the vain hope that it will finally sink in:

Not everyone powerlevels.  Not everyone uses XP boosters.  People use the XP lock at a variety of levels for a variety of valid reasons.  People play at all levels of the game.

The game doesn't being at 50.  It doesn't begin at 22.  It begins at lvl 1.

[ArchVileTerror]

Doc Scorpion speaks plenty of truth there.

 

I was thinking earlier, and while the term already exists, I kind of like the sounds of "Lateral Progression."

The implication that levelling up is not the only way to experience progression of your play experience.

 

I really think that it's something the game would benefit from having some developmental focus on.  Not to the exclusion of "endgame," mind you.  I just think we'd get more mileage building OUT rather than UP at this point.

 

Edited April 7, 2020 by ArchVileTerror
Modified a word for clarity, even though it's now a bit more repetitive.

[Peerless Girl]

21 minutes ago, ArchVileTerror said:

I was thinking earlier, and while the term already exists, I kind of like the sounds of "Lateral Progression."

The implication that levelling up is not the only way to experience progression of your play experience.

 

I really think that it's something the game would benefit from having some developmental focus on.  Not to the exclusion of "endgame," mind you.  I just think we'd get more mileage building OUT rather than UP at this point.

 

 

I agree with this statement. Lot of good thinking here.

[justicebeliever]

41 minutes ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

Not everyone powerlevels.  Not everyone uses XP boosters.  People use the XP lock at a variety of levels for a variety of valid reasons.  People play at all levels of the game.

The game doesn't being at 50.  It doesn't begin at 22.  It begins at lvl 1.

This is truth.  This is me.  +1 Influence Doc!

[Doc_Scorpion]

33 minutes ago, ArchVileTerror said:

I was thinking earlier, and while the term already exists, I kind of like the sounds of "Lateral Progression."

The implication that levelling up is not the only way to experience progression of your play experience.

 

I really think that it's something the game would benefit from having some developmental focus on.  Not to the exclusion of "endgame," mind you.  I just think we'd get more mileage building OUT rather than UP at this point.

Agreed.  Back in the OG days, that's why there was a constant cry for more content, especially at the lower levels.  (Though deeply flawed in execution on a variety of levels, Praetoria was an excellent step in the right direction.)  Though muted, and focused more on the upper levels, folks are still asking for more content.

People want the game to be replayable.  And with it's vast array of potential powersets, CoX is uniquely suited to answering that want.

That's why I've been testing and spoken in favor of this change [to enhancements].  Revitalizing the lower level game is a key part of enhancing replayability.

[Ukase]

Not reading through 6 pages, (so far) but I am looking forward to seeing how this pans out! It's a real gift for those that still use SOs in later levels, but the real fun will be actually having competent characters with the right enhancements instead of those useless TO/DOs - that I have never used because they're so useless, relative to SOs. 

A really nice QOL update, if it proceeds. 

My question is - for folks like me that might just have End Mod and recharge SOs -- will it update those and ignore my IOs? 

[Doc_Scorpion]

1 minute ago, Ukase said:

My question is - for folks like me that might just have End Mod and recharge SOs -- will it update those and ignore my IOs? 

My answer is - copy a character over to the Beta server and find out!

(It should ignore IO's, but it's worth finding out whether there a bug or not.)