Contacts and the Outleveling Issue

[Snowdaze]

I love how the game has a mechanic that was designed the better part of 2 decades ago, and has since given players every way under the sun to work within the system, but yet it's frankly still "not good enough" because it's simply "not ideal". The code is on the Ouro Wiki, go find it, figure out a sure fire way to do this, then come back. I will be more receptive to the concept if you are providing an actual solution rather then trying to get others to do it for you. I would much rather time and effort be spent elsewhere, like on smoothing over powersets that need love, or designing new missions.

I've done pretty much every arc over the years (I honestly still haven't got around to the entirety "Who will Die?" and "Pandora's Box"), and even have a character that set out to "do all the arcs in every range, organically," so I do understand the "want" for this. But it's most likely an impractical request.

 

Also the very FIRST experience curve in the game easily let you finish all the content in a level range and then left you to "figure the rest out." It took me over 6 months of 40 hour a week play to get to my first lvl 50. The last ten level at that time were brutal, you would drain all the contacts, have no "radio missions" because they didn't exist at the time. And you would be stuck either doing TF's or hoping on someone else's AV arc or even a Freak-farm. Only to walk away with a few bubs a night, and that was from hard grinding. We didn't have incarnate powers to mow things down, or IO sets to help us with those bonus'. 

So what I call the "original leveling curve" I should clarify as being the "intended leveling curve." As the original was changed to be more friendly and not force everyone to do everything, or do the same thing over and over.

 

With all the advances in the game, this small thing that you think you are asking for is likely NOT a small thing. It probably very much breaks things. That's why I can not overstate that trying to work "within the system" is likely simply put the best course of action. But a small handful of people would rather throw caution to the wind, because it's simply "Not good enough." 

 

I'm done trying to suggest alternatives, continue your musings. But it's really very unlikely to happen, this request of yours. However if on by some chance it does, be prepared for people to raise hell and complain the other way against the change. You may at that time give me a hard "told you so" that it's possible. I can take being wrong, and I can take criticism. I however do not think that you are justified in calling my argument "bullshit" as I have presented a sound case against the proposed idea, even though you may not agree with my comments. Many of us have come up with many fresh ideas but that does not automatically make then all justified and right.

[SwitchFade]

5 minutes ago, Snowdaze said:

I love how the game has a mechanic that was designed the better part of 2 decades ago, and has since given players every way under the sun to work within the system, but yet it's frankly still "not good enough" because it's simply "not ideal". The code is on the Ouro Wiki, go find it, figure out a sure fire way to do this, then come back. I will be more receptive to the concept if you are providing an actual solution rather then trying to get others to do it for you. I would much rather time and effort be spent elsewhere, like on smoothing over powersets that need love, or designing new missions.

I've done pretty much every arc over the years (I honestly still haven't got around to the entirety "Who will Die?" and "Pandora's Box"), and even have a character that set out to "do all the arcs in every range, organically," so I do understand the "want" for this. But it's most likely an impractical request.

 

Also the very FIRST experience curve in the game easily let you finish all the content in a level range and then left you to "figure the rest out." It took me over 6 months of 40 hour a week play to get to my first lvl 50. The last ten level at that time were brutal, you would drain all the contacts, have no "radio missions" because they didn't exist at the time. And you would be stuck either doing TF's or hoping on someone else's AV arc or even a Freak-farm. Only to walk away with a few bubs a night, and that was from hard grinding. We didn't have incarnate powers to mow things down, or IO sets to help us with those bonus'. 

So what I call the "original leveling curve" I should clarify as being the "intended leveling curve." As the original was changed to be more friendly and not force everyone to do everything, or do the same thing over and over.

 

With all the advances in the game, this small thing that you think you are asking for is likely NOT a small thing. It probably very much breaks things. That's why I can not overstate that trying to work "within the system" is likely simply put the best course of action. But a small handful of people would rather throw caution to the wind, because it's simply "Not good enough." 

 

I'm done trying to suggest alternatives, continue your musings. But it's really very unlikely to happen, this request of yours. However if on by some chance it does, be prepared for people to raise hell and complain the other way against the change. You may at that time give me a hard "told you so" that it's possible. I can take being wrong, and I can take criticism. I however do not think that you are justified in calling my argument "bullshit" as I have presented a sound case against the proposed idea, even though you may not agree with my comments. Many of us have come up with many fresh ideas but that does not automatically make then all justified and right.

Unfortunately, you're just the latest victim of the few in this thread who attack anyone who disagrees with this idea, as vaguely as it was initially explained. It's impossible to argue with emotion or ideology.

 

All you can really do, once the personal attacks roll out is...

 

Hard no vote on this idea.

[SurfD]

7 hours ago, Snowdaze said:

Also the very FIRST experience curve in the game easily let you finish all the content in a level range and then left you to "figure the rest out." It took me over 6 months of 40 hour a week play to get to my first lvl 50. The last ten level at that time were brutal, you would drain all the contacts, have no "radio missions" because they didn't exist at the time. And you would be stuck either doing TF's or hoping on someone else's AV arc or even a Freak-farm. Only to walk away with a few bubs a night, and that was from hard grinding. We didn't have incarnate powers to mow things down, or IO sets to help us with those bonus'. 

So what I call the "original leveling curve" I should clarify as being the "intended leveling curve." As the original was changed to be more friendly and not force everyone to do everything, or do the same thing over and over.

Ok, great.  That's all fine and dandy.  It's also completely irrelevant, as we are not playing CoH from 2 decades ago.  We are playing Homecoming, where it is entirely possible to EASILY outlevel entire zones worth of contacts without really trying, even WITHOUT the use of P2W vendor experience boosters.

 

I mean, take First Ward.  It's a 20-30 zone.  There is enough content SOLELY within first ward to easily carry you entirely from 20 well past 25, and probably a good chunk of the way to 30 without ever needing to "grind" anything and without ever touching any missions outside of the Story Arc narrative that runs through the zone.  I mean, I basically headed directly there on my level 21 praetorian after finishing the gold side starter arcs and going Blue, have barely finished about maybe 1/4th of what I recall the overall story arc for First Ward contains, and I am already almost level 24.  There is no way I could do all of First Ward AND all of Talos AND all of Independence Port "organically" without having to turn off exp at some point.  You simply out level the contacts way too fast.

7 hours ago, Snowdaze said:

With all the advances in the game, this small thing that you think you are asking for is likely NOT a small thing. It probably very much breaks things. That's why I can not overstate that trying to work "within the system" is likely simply put the best course of action. But a small handful of people would rather throw caution to the wind, because it's simply "Not good enough." 

How exactly would this be "not" a small thing?  As has been mentioned before, we KNOW contacts can continue to give you quests in an active Arc WELL past the point where you have totally outleveled both the contact as well as the arcs hard cap, because this ALREADY HAPPENS.   I fail to see how just making this apply to the Contact in general could possibly be some monumental undertaking.   The only thing you would probably have to do is turn off the bit of code that forces a contact to stop giving you missions once you have out leveled them.  No one is asking for any kind of "throw caution to the wind" radical alteration to how contacts hand out missions or anything like that.

 

And sorry, but your whole "The status quo is "Good Enough" and they are arrogant for requesting changes" bit is ridiculous.  That kind of logical drivel could be applied to basically every change the Homecoming team has made to the game: 

Why did they add Broadsword/Shield to Stalkers? Wasn't the original roster of powers "good enough"? 

Why did they tweak X powerset? Wasn't the original way it worked "good enough"?

The costume builder is goddamned awesome, but apparently there are people out there who want it to do more.  How dare they complain that the way it works now is "Not Good Enough".

Who the hell died and made you god that you get to decide what is "good enough" to propose changes for and what isn't?

 

Your entire argument basically boils down to:  The system involves jumping through hoops that were created to solve a problem, but because the hoops were the answer that the original devs settled on to solve the issue, we should just be happy with that.  So you should just work within the system and be happy they gave you hoops to jump through, and just keep your proposals to more innovative ways of jumping through the existing hoops.  But god forbid you actually propose an alternative to jumping through hoops, or even removing the hoops entirely.

 

I am also completely lost as to why you think people would want to "raise hell and complain the other way against the change" when there is basically no negative aspect to the proposed adjustment.  I mean, what exactly are they going to complain about?  Oh no, now their level 26 character can get a level 25 mission from the contact who previously would have just told them to bugger off.  The horror!  The outrage!

 

You brought up the "Having your cake and eating it too" idiom earlier and COMPLETELY missed the point.   We aren't talking about "Having your cake and eating it too", we are talking about having your cake, and maybe also having pie as well.  If you don't like pie, that's fine, the cake is still there.  But some of us might prefer pie to cake, and when we KNOW the game is capable of giving us pie, because we have seen specific instances where it will do so, we kind of have to question why it can't give us pie all the time, exactly the same way it gives us cake.

 

Having MORE choices is ALWAYS better than having less, especially if the new choices have absolutely no impact on the others.   Want to freeze your exp to quest? You can still do that.  Want to power speed to 50 in an AE farm and then do all your story stuff through Ouro Flashbacks? You can still do that too.  Allowing contacts to still give you missions after you out level them affects neither of those.

Edited May 9, 2020 by SurfD

[Blastit]

Would it be possible to add XP reduction to P2W? -25%, -50%, -75%. No impact on actual inf earned.

 

 

I guess debt capping each level is sort of an XP debuff... plus you get badges.

[Reiska]

Have to fully agree that there is no conceptual reason why Ouro should not have a complete gallery of every story arc in the game.  One assumes that the content missing from Ouro is only missing because of Paragon dev oversight at the time.

 

Incidentally, Praetoria goldside story arcs in the 1-20 are a well known case in the current game of content that violates the "you can always finish the arc" "rule" that applies to most of this game's content.

[Blastit]

I thought the flashback arcs and missions were stuff that is related to badges or at least temporary powers?

[SurfD]

12 minutes ago, Reiska said:

Incidentally, Praetoria goldside story arcs in the 1-20 are a well known case in the current game of content that violates the "you can always finish the arc" "rule" that applies to most of this game's content.

Not to mention that even only doing HALF the content in Praetoria is more than enough to push you past 20, where the initial 3 zones basically run out of contacts.  I just finished running a brute through the loyalist side, and even with no EXP boost I was almost level 21 having done ONLY the Power/Responsibility quest lines.

Edited May 9, 2020 by SurfD

[Reiska]

7 minutes ago, SurfD said:

Not to mention that even only doing HALF the content in Praetoria is more than enough to push you past 20, where the initial 3 zones basically run out of contacts.  I just finished running a brute through the loyalist side, and even with no EXP boost I was almost level 21 having done ONLY the Power/Responsibility quest lines.

Less than that even really.  I ran a Sentinel through Warden last week, solo-only, never going off +0/x1 no bosses, and never using XP boosts.  I had to do a single repeatable mission at the end of Nova Praetoria to be leveled enough for Imperial City, and then sailed all the way through to the end of the storyline; from there, I needed only 2 or 3 more repeatables to hit 20.

[Blastit]

You might not be supposed to be able to do every Praetorian mission in one go. It was after all designed mainly for veteran players, so being able to do something different on multiple new characters was probably a goal.

[Reiska]

Oh, I'm certain that is the case.  That's not the thing being complained about, though - the thing being complained about is that unlike every other Story Arc in the game, the Praetorian arcs cut off hard if you outlevel them and don't let you finish the story.  Which is kinda bad when the story is the whole point.

 

This used to be a significant issue on Live when people tried to roll goldside characters during 2XP weekends.

[SurfD]

15 minutes ago, Blastit said:

I thought the flashback arcs and missions were stuff that is related to badges or at least temporary powers?

Sort of.

4/5ths of the reason Ouro exists is because the way the devs designed contacts made it really easy to completely miss entire story chains or important missions.   There are a fair number of 1 off missions from contacts that reward badges, some of which are required for important Accolades, and the only way to get them once you outlevel their contact starter is through Ouro.

 

Outside of the intro to Incarnate stuff as well as a small amount of "personal" story attached to it, Ouro basically exists almost entirely as a means to access content you were artificially gated out of by the mechanic of outleveling contacts.

[SurfD]

14 minutes ago, Reiska said:

Oh, I'm certain that is the case.  That's not the thing being complained about, though - the thing being complained about is that unlike every other Story Arc in the game, the Praetorian arcs cut off hard if you outlevel them and don't let you finish the story.  Which is kinda bad when the story is the whole point.

 

This used to be a significant issue on Live when people tried to roll goldside characters during 2XP weekends.

This probably has to do with the fact that each zone specific "Morality Arc" for each of the faction paths is actually 3 or 4 smaller arcs, spread over 3 or 4 contacts, who all exist within the set level range for the zone.   If, at any time, you out level the zone in the middle of one of those "arc strings", you get stopped dead, because the contact you are currently running a mini arc for will pass you off to the next contact in the string, who will then refuse to talk to you because you are now too high level, which effectively kills the rest of the string dead.

Edited May 9, 2020 by SurfD

[Snowdaze]

38 minutes ago, SurfD said:

Sort of.

4/5ths of the reason Ouro exists is because the way the devs designed contacts made it really easy to completely miss entire story chains or important missions.   There are a fair number of 1 off missions from contacts that reward badges, some of which are required for important Accolades, and the only way to get them once you outlevel their contact starter is through Ouro.

 

Outside of the intro to Incarnate stuff as well as a small amount of "personal" story attached to it, Ouro basically exists almost entirely as a means to access content you were artificially gated out of by the mechanic of outleveling contacts.

False, most of those badge missions from contacts are given BEFORE they give you a story arc! And the few others are in story arcs.  Also Ouro isn't the ONLY way to get the badge if you outlevel a contact, you could try to organically find someone who can take the mission from the contact and join their team. But apparently you are incapable of seeing anything outside of your narrow view of what you think SHOULD be.

You really just cant stand that things aren't your way, and they they are TOO HARD for you to figure out. 😭

[Monos King]

8 hours ago, Blastit said:

Would it be possible to add XP reduction to P2W? -25%, -50%, -75%. No impact on actual inf earned.

 

 

I guess debt capping each level is sort of an XP debuff... plus you get badges.

Probably, but can't see why we would go in that direction rather than innovate a bit. That's pretty much just an extension of the lacking XP disable feature, which makes the existing problem still stand. I think moving away from that direction entirely would be beneficial. It's just unnecessary irritation to begin with.

[Monos King]

On 5/9/2020 at 5:01 AM, Snowdaze said:

You really just cant stand that things aren't your way, and they they are TOO HARD for you to figure out. 😭

Ah, I see you went with the crying emoji. You have quite the advanced palette sir! We see precious few of those in the trashcan. Why if you scavenge hard enough, you might find some common sense as well. Or maybe some actual worth.

 

Assuming people that are making suggestions for improvement of quality of life are just incompetent. Alright. Hey, why don't you address anything anyone has said? Like others have already asked? About how it harms no one, or that simply because it exists for a while doesnt make it good. Maybe that XP lock doesn't help if you're already past the level, and now want to do missions on a character you've superficially outgrown. I know plenty that do, you're saying F those losers right? Everytime, you state the change is unnecessary because XP Disable exists, we explain in detail why it would be helpful and harmless, how that doesn't actually address all of the issues that are had and barely even addresses one, and then you say it's unnecessary because XP Disable exists. Oh, but now thats followed by "maybe your dumb".  No, it's just stupid to rely on that, see the last few pages. It's been pretty funny, but it's cramping the thread now, and you don't appear to be joking. That's been your only argument without evidence, so how about it. If you have something to say you should be able to explain. Why should we be content with XP lock? You think it works? Cool. Various people disagree. We think it's an archaic solution to a heckling matter. If all you've got to say is "it works" all you deserve is "it doesn't". 

 

You and Switch, very curiously, spin the same tired statement every time. It's not even an argument. This won't work, and XP lock is good enough. You're not one of the developers. None of you can speak to their interests, so don't speak for them. You're also not the community representative, and even they don't get to decide what is "good enough" and "acceptable a solution". Get over yourself. Did you seriously tell anyone to go look at the code and come back with a solution? I'm cackling, I'm genuinely convinced you're a mockery. What do you think the forums are for? Scrutinizing the code, making a server, and returning here? Come back and comment that on every thread on the forum, I'll be mourning your absence. 

 

Until you have something to contribute, I'm definitely not replying to ya though mate. I'm trying to get a few things noticed, can't be spending time in a circle. Oh but if you want to work your magic and bash on my newest MM threads, that'd be fantastic. Apparently the controversy really helps their traction. Thanks best buddy.

Edited May 10, 2020 by Monos King
Thanks best buddy

[Snowdaze]

9 hours ago, Monos King said:

Ah, I see you went with the crying emoji. You have quite the advanced palette sir! We see precious few of those in the trashcan. Why if you scavenge hard enough, you might find some common sense as well. Or maybe some actual worth.

 

Assuming people that are making suggestions for improvement of quality of life are just incompetent. Alright. Hey, why don't you address anything anyone has said? About how it harms no one, or that simply because it exists for a while doesnt make it good. Maybe that XP lock doesn't help if you're already past the level, and now want to do missions on a character you've superficially outgrown. I know plenty that do, you're saying F those losers right? Everytime, you state the change is unnecessary because XP Disable exists, we explain in detail why it would be helpful and harmless, how that doesn't actually address all of the issues that are had and barely even addresses one, and then you say it's unnecessary because XP Disable exists. Oh, but now thats followed by "maybe your dumb".  No you silly fool, it's just stupid to rely on that, see the last few pages. It's been pretty funny, but it's cramping the thread now, and you don't appear to be joking. That's been your only argument without evidence, so how about it. If you have something to say you should be able to explain. Why should we be content with XP lock? You think it works? Cool. Various people disagree. We think it's an archaic solution to a heckling matter. If all you've got to say is "it works" all you deserve is "it doesn't". 

 

You and Switch, very curiously, spin the same tired statement every time. It's not even an argument. This won't work, and XP lock is good enough. You're not one of the developers. None of you can speak to their interests, so don't speak for them. You're also not the community representative, and even they don't get to decide what is "good enough" and "acceptable a solution". Get over yourself. Did you seriously tell anyone to go look at the code and come back with a solution? I'm cackling, I'm genuinely convinced you're a mockery. What do you think the forums are for? Scrutinizing the code, making a server, and returning here? Come back and comment that on every thread on the forum, I'll be mourning your absence. 

 

Until you have something to contribute, I'm definitely not replying to ya though mate. I'm trying to get a few things noticed, can't be spending time in a circle. Oh but if you want to work your magic and bash on my newest MM threads, that'd be fantastic. Apparently the controversy really helps their traction. Thanks best budy.

I won't mock you Monos. You've been here (a CoH player) for a while, you are more eloquent then most with words, and you show a level of higher thinking. I won't comment on all your MM posts aside from they seem very researched, but honestly the length of them turned me off from reading them. I'm glad you find me amusing if nothing else. And while I agree with this that both side of this have approached the point of circular argument, I feel that I did point out that "Ouro should be expanded" somewhere in one of my posts. What this really comes down to is many of the "changes" that have been made to the game are very much just database changes. Expanding Ouro most likely falls into that category. Effectively changing how a contacts work likely is not, which in an effort to change could have wide spread effects on the game code and introduce all manor of bugs. This is the nature of programming. 

Because other options currently exist to accomplish the intended goal of completing Contact's content, many of which have been outlined in this thread, this is a prime example of "Is the juice worth the squeeze?" And although there is apparently an extremely vocal minority (and I choose this word only because in the 15 years of time that I have played CoH, this is the first time I have ever seen this suggestion, and I've seen all manor, and even make some now and again) that wish this change to happen, I ask you as much of a QoL this seems, Why are there all these other options to accomplish the same goal? May it be because what you are suggesting is impractical?

Now I posted in this thread because I felt there needed to be a "con" to the proposed "pro." Now I strive to keep at least a certain level of civility, professionalism, and decorum in my posts, but the amount of hostility I have received was very much unwarranted, and although I may have crossed my personal line for etiquette I did my best not to direct any hostility back at anyone who did not deserve any in turn. 

I really don't see a need to keep repeating myself over and over that this is an unnecessary suggestion. So this will be my last time. Feel free to continue blindly changing after this effort to turn lead into gold, but I'm prone to believe you will not see this change.

I would like to take this last line to commend @Emperor Cole for staying on topic more then anyone else. And apologize for the implied tone of the "disable xp" picture, but the phrase "agree to disagree" never got anyone anywhere, and it's basically akin to "sticking ones fingers in their ears and singing 'I'm not listening'."

Edited May 10, 2020 by Snowdaze
edited for grammar, repetitive wording

[srmalloy]

20 hours ago, SurfD said:

... questing through most single zones will easily have you blowing through 5 levels without much problem.  Unless you are stealthing through everything and only clicking glowies/killing bosses, and ignoring task forces completely, you will EASILY outlevel probably 2/3s of the content available at any given 5 level block range.

Back long before XP modifiers, patrol XP, and Ouroboros -- but after accolades -- there was a thriving business in selling access to the "Rescue the mystic from the Circle of Thorns" mission that awarded the Spelunker badge; low-level characters would charge for signing up high-level characters that had either blown past the 10-14 level range of the contacts that offered the mission, or were already past it when the accolade powers were implemented. So, yes, outleveling content has been a thing since launch. As SurfD describes, it was easy to do with any AT.

[SwitchFade]

7 hours ago, Monos King said:

Ah, I see you went with the crying emoji. You have quite the advanced palette sir! We see precious few of those in the trashcan. Why if you scavenge hard enough, you might find some common sense as well. Or maybe some actual worth.

 

Assuming people that are making suggestions for improvement of quality of life are just incompetent. Alright. Hey, why don't you address anything anyone has said? About how it harms no one, or that simply because it exists for a while doesnt make it good. Maybe that XP lock doesn't help if you're already past the level, and now want to do missions on a character you've superficially outgrown. I know plenty that do, you're saying F those losers right? Everytime, you state the change is unnecessary because XP Disable exists, we explain in detail why it would be helpful and harmless, how that doesn't actually address all of the issues that are had and barely even addresses one, and then you say it's unnecessary because XP Disable exists. Oh, but now thats followed by "maybe your dumb".  No you silly fool, it's just stupid to rely on that, see the last few pages. It's been pretty funny, but it's cramping the thread now, and you don't appear to be joking. That's been your only argument without evidence, so how about it. If you have something to say you should be able to explain. Why should we be content with XP lock? You think it works? Cool. Various people disagree. We think it's an archaic solution to a heckling matter. If all you've got to say is "it works" all you deserve is "it doesn't". 

 

You and Switch, very curiously, spin the same tired statement every time. It's not even an argument. This won't work, and XP lock is good enough. You're not one of the developers. None of you can speak to their interests, so don't speak for them. You're also not the community representative, and even they don't get to decide what is "good enough" and "acceptable a solution". Get over yourself. Did you seriously tell anyone to go look at the code and come back with a solution? I'm cackling, I'm genuinely convinced you're a mockery. What do you think the forums are for? Scrutinizing the code, making a server, and returning here? Come back and comment that on every thread on the forum, I'll be mourning your absence. 

 

Until you have something to contribute, I'm definitely not replying to ya though mate. I'm trying to get a few things noticed, can't be spending time in a circle. Oh but if you want to work your magic and bash on my newest MM threads, that'd be fantastic. Apparently the controversy really helps their traction. Thanks best buddy.

Conversely, you (Mono King) and several others display a severe lack of respect, actively attacking other people with insults, deriding their opinions just because they are opposed to yours and dismissing their valid factual points with condescension. You're literally rude, degrading and debasing people who have not personally attacked you.

 

And you expect to be taken seriously?

Edited May 10, 2020 by SwitchFade

[Monos King]

 Well I guess it couldn't hurt to try to explain it to you. You received hostility because you tried to shut down an idea proposed for the sake of other peoples enjoyment by presenting your opinion as fact and dismissing others ideas off that uncorroborated principle. And upon being challenged on that principle, you neither offered an argument nor any form of amicability...just coldly repeated your perspective that you are utterly unyielding on without any explanation. Or in my case:

On 5/2/2020 at 4:58 PM, Monos King said:

If that's true, I suppose that's that. Got any links to those threads though? A lot of times it's just assumed to be a rigor, and I'm not in for every convenience being shut down due to the presumption of complexity. Severely limits the extent of proposal efficacy. The claim alone can hinder a suggestions traction, so it's pretty important to show evidence on that account. I personally haven't seen it discussed to often, nor has the OP I imagine if he suggested it here.

 

Seeing those threads will probably effect future suggestions people decide to make a post about too.

Ignored entirely. Despite my best efforts to bring actual evidence out of you. You even focused on a minute aspect that had absolutely nothing to do with the OPs discussion and replies, and deliberately prioritized having an argument instead of talking about the main matter. In fact, even now the only time you've actually replied to me was once I was a bit combative...so you could self-victimize and state that you've unjustifiably been getting attacked. You are proving you are only here to argue, rather than offer anything constructive.  And you should probably take a look in the mirror, because the only one being condescending is you. You need to stop assuming you are right. Like I told Snow, you are not a developer, nor a community rep. If all you have to say is "this won't work, I'm sure of it" you aren't going to be taken seriously. 

On 5/3/2020 at 4:28 PM, Monos King said:

Ok, cool. I don't know what argument is unfolding right now, all I'm going to do is clear up what the ones in favor of this idea have been proposing and make it abundantly certain for future viewers, as it seems there is already misconception over, like, nothing.

1.  You unlock a contact at a lower level
2. You are able to do its arcs/side missions
3. You level up
4. You continue to be able to do its arcs/side missions, regardless of if the enemies are now gray to you
5. Convenience!

Right now we're working with "Contact level range is a-d" so if you get to level e+ that contact stops giving you their content past whatever mission or arc you were last given. The OP is suggesting that Contacts act as though you were still in the level range when you out-level it. Aka removing the level range for mission acceptance. We know the NPC's level range would be unimpacted, and we're ok with that. The idea is strictly a convenience that should be pretty useful and never harmful. It seemed like you, Switch, were maintaining that the enemies encountered being gray would be a game-limitation issue, and to that I gather thunder cited how that already exists in the form of higher levels doing their existing arcs and encountering low level fodder in retort. If that's not how it was, probably just a misunderstanding. This idea though, is not a motion to make NPC groups level scale. The big thing for everyone to take away is that, mechanically, doing missions where the native hostiles are uber weaker than you is possible because it does exist, and that a potential (but yet unverified) concern with this suggestion is if it's actually troublesome or not to go in and remove whatever makes contacts acknowledge your level and stop giving you missions in the first place.

Every attempt I've made to get you on topic was dismissed.  You wouldn't reply here either, nor offer any of the supposed numerous threads affirming your point despite my admission that if that were the case, then we could just wrap this up or consider other options. In fact, I and everyone else has been very warm to the ouroboros expansion related suggestions, though those in favor of this are, of course, more in favor of this.

8 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

valid factual points with condescension.

Where? Where have you given a single "valid factual point"? Where have you given evidence? Was it here?

On 5/6/2020 at 10:03 AM, SwitchFade said:

Sorry, contacts and level ranges are fine as they are.

 

Hard no vote.

Was it here where you dismissed the entire thread by obfuscating your opinion with fact once more? Where you call out Cole for wanting topic relevancy on an idea he introduced solely with the intention of making the game better for everyone? Go ahead and quote the supposed valid factual points, perhaps I missed them.

Here are your biggest issues.

1) You litter the thread with misconceptions without ever admitting your fault. 

On 5/3/2020 at 1:06 PM, SwitchFade said:

Im sorry, you are incorrect. Please review the statement you are replying to again, without editing to support a fallacy, as it is factually accurate.

 

Further, as I previously stated, there is a converse case where some story arcs allow completion, albeit outleveled; which is FURTHER evidence.

 

You may be misinformed, as it is conclusive stated fact that the architecture of the game does not allow LEVEL SCALING of MOBs, exactly as described.

 

I recommend reading the thread for relevant discussion. Additionally, I would also recommend being more civil, as declaring something "utter nonsense" (especially when not you are not actually correct) is not merely bad form, but bad ettiquite. 

No one was proposing level scaling of mobs. It was not suggested once. Yet you dwell on it. And you adopted a condescending tone in an attempt to make up for your mistake calling the thread "ambiguous". You then presented that statement as fact, despite the OP being very direct. And even if it is not direct to you, if it was to another person it becomes a matter of opinion that you once again held to be utter fact.

Nice transition to the next issue which is

 

2) All you and others so far have offered are your own opinion with zero evidence. 

Why is XP Lock good enough? Quote to me a single reply demonstrating how XP Lock is sufficient to match up to the concerns of

• Level 50s that want to go back and do story lines
• Low levels that want to level up while playing story lines unencumbered 
• Players that want to go in an steam roll enemies that are gray for the funzies

I look forward to that task as well. Oh, and finally

3) You are a huge hypocrite!

All you have done is offer opinion after opinion, with the most condescending tone possible that presumes everyone else is wrong automatically and doesn't know what they are talking about. You do realize that if your saying to @SurfD 

On 5/5/2020 at 9:30 PM, SwitchFade said:

Your opinion is your own and not fact. It was ambiguous, due to the fact it was not clear. You interpret it one way, which is merely your perspective, not evidence. 

 

Then YOUR perspective is ALSO an opinion? And you can't tell me this isn't condescending, with the implication of incompetence  in "look closely"

On 5/3/2020 at 3:28 PM, SwitchFade said:

Look closely, I never argued that story arcs don't stay open.

You can't victimize yourself when you are guilty of these issues, when you were the source of these attitudes for many people to begin with. It's because of these issues you have that I'm now going to follow Cole's advice and stop my association with you on this thread.

I advise that you acknowledge your own words, Switch.

On 5/4/2020 at 7:56 AM, SwitchFade said:

If you're really going to pursue such a course, be sure you have proof.

It'd help.

Edited May 10, 2020 by Monos King

[Widower]

Please attempt to keep the amount of fire in this thread to a minimum, thanks.

[Noyjitat]

Ops idea at the very least should be an option. Personally I only use ouro to rerun missed arcs and if you're on a team and everyone doesn't want to stay the entire time you can't invite more people when they quit. One of the other servers scaled up all story arcs so you don't have to even worry about this now and ouro is still there for re-running favorite arcs if you should decide to do so as well as earning ouro-badges so I really don't see what the problem would be. Except for a few select villain groups nearly all npcs have 1 - 50 versions that exist except for a few such as: outcasts, trolls, hellions, clockwork and lost which technically become rikti and clockwork become psychic clockwork. All they have to do is give the enemy groups that are missing high level versions the stats and extra powers and everything is good. I'd also be okay with the contact exemplaring you so long as you could still invite other people at anytime during the arc.

 

Street sweeping could use an update as well since the option to do so at 50 leaves you with no real choices. If zone npcs were like the rikti invasion npcs that scale with you like gms and stuff you could hunt anywhere. Make the red marked neighborhoods spawn purples and reds while the yellow neighborhoods spawn oranges and yellows. Wouldn't want to force the street sweeping update on those that may not enjoy it though. Maybe make adventure zone versions of each map where the street sweeping tech is in effect while others can still go instagib a group of grays in classic zones. 

Edited May 10, 2020 by Noyjitat

[Emperor Cole]

16 hours ago, Noyjitat said:

Ops idea at the very least should be an option. Personally I only use ouro to rerun missed arcs and if you're on a team and everyone doesn't want to stay the entire time you can't invite more people when they quit. One of the other servers scaled up all story arcs so you don't have to even worry about this now and ouro is still there for re-running favorite arcs if you should decide to do so as well as earning ouro-badges so I really don't see what the problem would be. Except for a few select villain groups nearly all npcs have 1 - 50 versions that exist except for a few such as: outcasts, trolls, hellions, clockwork and lost which technically become rikti and clockwork become psychic clockwork. All they have to do is give the enemy groups that are missing high level versions the stats and extra powers and everything is good. I'd also be okay with the contact exemplaring you so long as you could still invite other people at anytime during the arc.

Agreed. Many of the NPCs, as seen in the A.E. NPC Catalog, already have 1-54 versions, which also makes this easier to be implimented. Fighting greys wouldn't be much of an issue either. 

[Monos King]

Really hoping to hear on if either the Outlevel removal or Installation of all missions or arcs into Ouro is plausible. I have strong preference for the first option for aforementioned reasons but either would solve the main issue.

[AboveTheChemist]

On 5/2/2020 at 4:48 PM, Apparition said:

I've heard that there's another City of Heroes server out there that lets you, at level 50, walk up to any contact, and run their missions as malefactored.  For example, at level 50, you could walk up to David Wincott in the Hollows, take his missions, and be malefactored down to level 10.  I have no idea how true that is or not, but if so I would really like to see that on Homecoming.  Ouroboros Flashback is just not the same.

I really like this idea, but if this isn't viable then I also like the idea of adding all mission content to Ouro.

[Snowdaze]

11 hours ago, Monos King said:

Really hoping to hear on if either the Outlevel removal or Installation of all missions or arcs into Ouro is plausible. I have strong preference for the first option for aforementioned reasons but either would solve the main issue.

It's poor form for devs to post in the suggestion box.