Barrier Needs a Nerf

[Zeraphia]

Honestly, Barrier is just too powerful for what it does for teams. Completely max'd out resistances and defenses for a substantial amount of time is just too much. Ageless and Clarion are great, they're powerful, but they're not outright "broken" in comparison to what Barrier is/does. It just gives too much of an advantage to stack multiple Barriers on teams, have continuous "god modes," and make even +4 AV's a complete joke. I don't know what I'd nerf it to, but I'd definitely make it start off with a smaller resistance/defense bonus and more gradually slow down to +5%. 

[Razor Cure]

I'd argue that for squishy Ats (who are NOT building for uber range def), Clarion is utterly, stupidly awesome. it may not make you unkillable, but never getting mezzed is amazing.

[Chance Jackson]

8 hours ago, Zeraphia said:

Honestly, Barrier is just too powerful for what it does for teams. Completely max'd out resistances and defenses for a substantial amount of time is just too much. Ageless and Clarion are great, they're powerful, but they're not outright "broken" in comparison to what Barrier is/does. It just gives too much of an advantage to stack multiple Barriers on teams, have continuous "god modes," and make even +4 AV's a complete joke. I don't know what I'd nerf it to, but I'd definitely make it start off with a smaller resistance/defense bonus and more gradually slow down to +5%. 

No, thank you though a more gradual drop would be nice

[Rathulfr]

/jranger

[MTeague]

Full Disclosure:  I tend to level 45-50 by getting XP while exemplared in 44-or-below content because I feel so damn useless / carried on a lvl 47 when a team of 50's is being incarnate gods and trivializing all content.   I don't mind it once I'm ALSO one of those fully-incarnated out 50's. But I absolutely loathe the feeling of being carried.  And when you're a 47 on a team of full incarnates, you could be replaced by a chipmunk and no one would notice.

 

That said.

 

I do not think Barrier should be weakened. 

 

Good / Bad / Indifferent, the Incarnate System is literally designed to make your character feel like a god among mortals.

I mean, that was literally the design intent of the entire thing, backed up by story arcs and cutscenes in the Mender Ramiel arc.

 

Yes, this does truly unspeakable things to game balance, and I don't think game balance has a "Safe Word" to say "stop enough!".

But, frankly, pre-incarnate groups can do the same thing if you have a team with a Force Fields, plus Cold Domination plus Sonic Resonance, plus Thermal Radiation.

That entire team will be maxed defense / max resist the entire time if they use their buffs intellegently, from like, lvl 15 all the way to 50.

Or just a team of 8 Empaths all buffing each other to SKY-HIGH defenses and regeneration levels that would make a willpower brute cry in envy.

 

[macskull]

Realistically Barrier's only really good for the first 30 seconds and the remaining 90 seconds is okay. It's sort of redundant on a well-balanced team since most people will already be running around with softcapped defense and solid resistance already, so much of the "really good" portion of Barrier is complete overkill. I'd argue that outside of specific Incarnate content Barrier is possibly the least useful Destiny buff. You could make a PvP-related argument that Barrier is too good and you'd almost have something there but diminishing returns on resistance and defense for non-melee ATs means Barrier is next to useless on ranged ATs and if someone sees a melee AT pop Barrier they should be smart enough to just ignore that person for the next 30 seconds or so.

[Apparition]

I agree with @macskull.   All of my toons take Clarion, even melee, since I routinely lead Rikti mothership raids.  Then there are the Incarnate trials.  All of my toons that don’t have a heal take Rebirth as well just for the healing badges.  Many take Ageless, either for the endurance, or the recharge and DDR.

 

In PvE, Barrier is entirely overkill.  I have never taken it on any of my toons as I just don’t see the point.  All of my characters have pre-Incarnate softcapped defenses.  In Incarnate trials, I am sure that there will be at least one FF/Cold/Time Defender/Controller/Corruptor in the league.  Resistance is a bit more rare, but still good enough.

[MsSmart]

Why everybody is after nurfing things, when they feel it is unbalanced to their personal belief of how the game should play?

 

If barrier is so horrid to endure in a team, when forming the team, make a policy for instance of no incarnate powers to be used; there you go problem solved, and no need to ruining it for the rest of the server populations.

 

Wish folks would try harder to work things out without demanding to stick it to other players...

 

Sue

[Dahkness]

12 hours ago, Zeraphia said:

Honestly, Barrier is just too powerful for what it does for teams. Completely max'd out resistances and defenses for a substantial amount of time is just too much. Ageless and Clarion are great, they're powerful, but they're not outright "broken" in comparison to what Barrier is/does. It just gives too much of an advantage to stack multiple Barriers on teams, have continuous "god modes," and make even +4 AV's a complete joke. I don't know what I'd nerf it to, but I'd definitely make it start off with a smaller resistance/defense bonus and more gradually slow down to +5%. 

Then they should nerf the teleport buff! That’s pretty much perma 

[Coyotedancer]

1 hour ago, macskull said:

Realistically Barrier's only really good for the first 30 seconds and the remaining 90 seconds is okay. It's sort of redundant on a well-balanced team since most people will already be running around with softcapped defense and solid resistance already, so much of the "really good" portion of Barrier is complete overkill. I'd argue that outside of specific Incarnate content Barrier is possibly the least useful Destiny buff. You could make a PvP-related argument that Barrier is too good and you'd almost have something there but diminishing returns on resistance and defense for non-melee ATs means Barrier is next to useless on ranged ATs and if someone sees a melee AT pop Barrier they should be smart enough to just ignore that person for the next 30 seconds or so.

 

Yep. All that.

 

I was actually told by a couple of team-mates (Who, admittedly, were all the sort of players who are fond of power-builds) not two days ago that Barrier is "pretty much useless" and so a poor Destiny choice to make for teaming these days... As Mac says, when you're running with maxed-out/soft-capped characters, it really doesn't add much. Even when you're NOT running with that kind of group (That is to say, when you're with a lower-powered bunch who may NOT be capped to everything-) the most powerful effects still don't last all that long. They're an excellent Panic Button when the group looks like its about to be overwhelmed, but the big buff is short-lived. 'Pretty much just enough to get ahead of the hot water, but not what I'd call game-breaking.

[Psyonico]

If I remember correctly the defense buff only lasts 10 seconds and the rest is just resist, which goes down fairly quickly. 

 

Ageless' debuff resistance is much stronger than barriers buffs

[SaddestGhost]

18 minutes ago, Psyonico said:

If I remember correctly the defense buff only lasts 10 seconds and the rest is just resist, which goes down fairly quickly. 

 

Ageless' debuff resistance is much stronger than barriers buffs

Barrier's defense and resist buffs have the same duration; a huge buff up front that degrades after 10, 30, 60, then 120 seconds. 

[Indystruck]

I'd say the best way to nerf the effect is to leave everything as is but half the speed at which Destiny recharges, with the exception of Incandescence. 

[Apparition]

7 minutes ago, Indystruck said:

I'd say the best way to nerf the effect is to leave everything as is but half the speed at which Destiny recharges, with the exception of Incandescence. 

That would certainly be one way to get me to stop playing anything other than melee toons.

[Indystruck]

Alright.

 

I meant double the time period before it is castable, if that helps, ugh. Teach me to post while cooking. 

Edited May 11, 2020 by Indystruck

[Greycat]

11 hours ago, macskull said:

... since most people will already be running around with softcapped defense and solid resistance already,

 

10 hours ago, Apparition said:

  All of my characters have pre-Incarnate softcapped defenses.

 

9 hours ago, Coyotedancer said:

 

 was actually told by a couple of team-mates (Who, admittedly, were all the sort of players who are fond of power-builds) not two days ago that Barrier is "pretty much useless"

I see a trend. 🙂

 

Know who doesn't find it overpowered? People who *don't* have softcapped defenses.

 

It already ramps down. It's not like it's giving everyone that buff for 5 minutes straight at max power.

 

So for the OP? No thanks.

[nihilii]

In theory, Barrier may very well be too strong. But 99% of my builds end up with Ageless. Hmm. The ability to completely ignore endurance management with just one Destiny pick is very, very powerful.

[Burnt Toast]

On 5/10/2020 at 12:40 AM, Zeraphia said:

Honestly, Barrier is just too powerful for what it does for teams. Completely max'd out resistances and defenses for a substantial amount of time is just too much. Ageless and Clarion are great, they're powerful, but they're not outright "broken" in comparison to what Barrier is/does. It just gives too much of an advantage to stack multiple Barriers on teams, have continuous "god modes," and make even +4 AV's a complete joke. I don't know what I'd nerf it to, but I'd definitely make it start off with a smaller resistance/defense bonus and more gradually slow down to +5%. 

Then don't take Barrier? 🙂

 

 

[tidge]

The decay of Barrier keeps it from becoming particularly overpowered. I often have Barrier as an eventual Incarnate option, but I think I mostly use it only in two cases:

• I'm teamed with squishy (or sub-50) characters playing in high level content (or I am that squishy)
• I'm playing a Mastermind (and I don't want to use Rebirth for some reason)

Rebirth (Core) is my default choice on most toons (including Masterminds). I don't like to see allies fall, and it is easier to click the wide heal than to try to dump them green insps. It's a reasonable panic button for myself as well. I don't examine my PUG allies' details for defense or resist numbers, so the green bars are a better indication of how they are handling content... and it is easier on my play style to sweep in with a heal when needed rather than try to babysit such characters with Barrier, although I've done exactly that on occasion.

 

As I try to have Endurance under control before Incarnates, I almost never take Ageless. Clarion is a low priority because of building for Defense and the other buffs are a little to invisible for my taste. I've played with enough other toons who are a little liberal with their use of Incandescence for me to favor it, but if my toon is super-stealthy I will have it available for certain missions.

[Zeraphia]

19 hours ago, MTeague said:

Full Disclosure:  I tend to level 45-50 by getting XP while exemplared in 44-or-below content because I feel so damn useless / carried on a lvl 47 when a team of 50's is being incarnate gods and trivializing all content.   I don't mind it once I'm ALSO one of those fully-incarnated out 50's. But I absolutely loathe the feeling of being carried.  And when you're a 47 on a team of full incarnates, you could be replaced by a chipmunk and no one would notice.

 

That said.

 

I do not think Barrier should be weakened. 

 

Good / Bad / Indifferent, the Incarnate System is literally designed to make your character feel like a god among mortals.

I mean, that was literally the design intent of the entire thing, backed up by story arcs and cutscenes in the Mender Ramiel arc.

 

Yes, this does truly unspeakable things to game balance, and I don't think game balance has a "Safe Word" to say "stop enough!".

But, frankly, pre-incarnate groups can do the same thing if you have a team with a Force Fields, plus Cold Domination plus Sonic Resonance, plus Thermal Radiation.

That entire team will be maxed defense / max resist the entire time if they use their buffs intellegently, from like, lvl 15 all the way to 50.

Or just a team of 8 Empaths all buffing each other to SKY-HIGH defenses and regeneration levels that would make a willpower brute cry in envy.

 

Yes... See there is balance there, not every AT can just give a ridiculous amount of resistance/defense to totally ignore the damage literally anything can do to you for about 30 seconds. That is broken. I agree with your point about stacking buffs from supports... but those are specific ATs with specific powerset combinations not just random ATs being able to contribute what barrier does.

 

People are totally ignoring the fact that you have a power that gives more defense and resistance than Elude AND Unstoppable for an entire league of 48. Is it the full duration? No. I'm not pretending it is. But that IS brokenly good, it makes incarnate content not even difficult, especially when you can stack it multiple times. 

 

3 hours ago, nihilii said:

In theory, Barrier may very well be too strong. But 99% of my builds end up with Ageless. Hmm. The ability to completely ignore endurance management with just one Destiny pick is very, very powerful.

It is, but you're not comparing the same effects. Endurance and recharge (when things like Hasten and set bonuses are around and available to everyone - with resistance and defense types definitely not available to others) are not as powerful to an entire group or league of people (the difference between making an entire league of 48 people completely unkillable for the entire duration it takes now to kill high-level AV in trials is vastly different than the effect of those people not running out of endurance and having their powers recharge faster - still powerful but not in the same "league.") Many people will have their endurance issues already fixed, not as many will have softcaps and resistance to every single damage type in game (minus very special damage/unresistables).

6 hours ago, Greycat said:

Know who doesn't find it overpowered? People who *don't* have softcapped defenses.

I'm happy for you that you have *literally every single resistance type and defense type in the entire game* but for the other 99% of players and AT combinations, by default, we won't get the same luxury, and its affects to a group are overpowered.

15 hours ago, Psyonico said:

If I remember correctly the defense buff only lasts 10 seconds and the rest is just resist, which goes down fairly quickly. 

 

Ageless' debuff resistance is much stronger than barriers buffs

People have said this already, but it lasts the entire time but decays in effectiveness.

18 hours ago, macskull said:

Realistically Barrier's only really good for the first 30 seconds and the remaining 90 seconds is okay. It's sort of redundant on a well-balanced team since most people will already be running around with softcapped defense and solid resistance already, so much of the "really good" portion of Barrier is complete overkill. I'd argue that outside of specific Incarnate content Barrier is possibly the least useful Destiny buff. You could make a PvP-related argument that Barrier is too good and you'd almost have something there but diminishing returns on resistance and defense for non-melee ATs means Barrier is next to useless on ranged ATs and if someone sees a melee AT pop Barrier they should be smart enough to just ignore that person for the next 30 seconds or so.

Oh yes, a Psi/Bio Stalker in PvP deciding to tag-team people with Concentration + GPB + all the procs it can take (instantly oneshotting literally anything) then popping up barrier to force themselves back into hide to do it all again, and reshuffling the barriers with a friend isn't broken at all...

On a well-balanced team with colds/thermals/etc. in support, yes. But to say that an effect is "underpowered" because there are support sets (you're forced to play MM/Defender/Controller/Corruptor to use them) that can stack, is a poor argument, because like I said, you're forced to have to play one of those and deal with their shortcomings. You do not have to deal with any shortcomings at all for ATs to use barrier. It's the least beneficial Destiny when your team is highly optimized, it's by far the most beneficial one with any sort of lesser-optimized one that doesn't include lots of support buffs. 

Edited May 11, 2020 by Zeraphia

[ShardWarrior]

On 5/10/2020 at 2:40 AM, Zeraphia said:

have continuous "god modes,"

Lore wise, becoming god like is part of becoming an Incarnate.  Read the text from the story arcs.  Read what the Menders say when they are talking about those who have had contact with the Well being "god like beings."  We are no different.

 

The issue I see some people having is that Incarnate abilities may trivialize non-incarnate content.  Stuff like the ITF, older end game raids like the RSF, MLTF  etc. were never designed with Incarnates in mind.  There was and still is not enough content designed for and balanced around fully slotted Incarnates.  Were we to have more end game Incarnate designed content, things like Judgement and Barrier and all the other stuff the "too easy" crowd are complaining about would be a lot less trivial.

Edited May 11, 2020 by ShardWarrior

[Zeraphia]

14 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

Lore wise, becoming god like is part of becoming an Incarnate.  Read the text from the story arcs.  Read what the Menders say when they are talking about those who have had contact with the Well being "god like beings."  We are no different.

 

The issue I see some people having is that Incarnate abilities may trivialize non-incarnate content.  Stuff like the ITF, older end game raids like the RSF, MLTF  etc. were never designed with Incarnates in mind.  There was and still is not enough content designed for and balanced around fully slotted Incarnates.  Were we to have more end game Incarnate designed content, things like Judgement and Barrier and all the other stuff the "too easy" crowd are complaining about would be a lot less trivial.

This is kind of what I'm referencing, but Barrier itself makes even incarnate content too easy. No matter how you slice it, repeatedly using barrier with teammates is broken, it gives way too much defense and resistance for what it does. If there were enemy groups that did damage unaffected by barrier, that would be one thing, but when it literally resists and buffs to the sky *everyone* on the team's defenses and resistances and can be repeatedly stacked over and over multiple times giving several "god modes," it makes literally nothing even incarnate content able to produce any sort of challenge. That's why I want it fixed, because I want there to be some sort of content that presents at least some challenge or interest in doing. Older 50 TFs were a lot harder before the incarnate system, that is just a flat fact. Yes, defense and resistance buffs exist outside of it, but you had to have specific people doing that, not just anyone can give everyone on the team god modes on rotations. 

 

This is exactly my issue with it.

[ShardWarrior]

6 minutes ago, Zeraphia said:

This is kind of what I'm referencing, but Barrier itself makes even incarnate content too easy.

I disagree as we run iTrials quite regularly and there are still people getting defeated all the time.  I suggest if you feel it it is overpowered, start forming your own groups and mandating Barrier does not get used before starting any content.

 

There is nothing to "fix" here.  Just add more difficult Incarnate content.

[Psyonico]

Ok, I thought I was going crazy, but no.  Barrier's Defense portion only lasts 10 seconds, then it's gone.  It does not decay like the resistance.

[Zeraphia]

24 minutes ago, Psyonico said:

Ok, I thought I was going crazy, but no.  Barrier's Defense portion only lasts 10 seconds, then it's gone.  It does not decay like the resistance.

I just used it right now.

It DOES decay.