Remove Travel Power Restrictions from Grounded

[macskull]

I'll post one last time before I waste any more time in this thread. @Naraka's argument is that since sets need to have weaknesses to balance out their strengths, Grounded is okay the way it is. Nevermind that Elec is also weak to negative and toxic damage and regeneration debuffs despite resistance and regeneration being its two main mitigation tools. Look, I'm all for sets having thematic weaknesses, but Elec already has them before you even consider its knockback protection. Almost every armor set already has thematic weaknesses, even the ones that have more comprehensive mez protection. There's no reason for Elec's to be different. Yes, it's an auto power, which is why the lack of knockback resistance isn't a huge deal, but the inconsistent knockback protection kind of sucks. The only other armor sets in the game that have knockback holes are Fire, Dark, and Stalker Ninjitsu - Fire and Dark are relics of an era where that was considered an okay tradeoff for the extra potential offensive output of the sets, and while I'm not sure of the original justification for lack of KB protection on Stalkers, Scrapper and Sentinel Ninjitsu gets knockback protection.

[Naraka]

And to state my counterpoint to the above post:

 

Elec Armor's weakness to negative and toxic is more a universal aspect of armor sets as toxic is an exotic damage type most sets don't resist toxic outside of a click heal, and negative energy isn't as common as psi or energy is particularly in mid-to-late game.  Besides that, having vulnerabilities isn't isolated to just one thing.  You can be weak to several things moderately vs being completely exposed to something (like Invulnerability is to Psi dmg) which Elec armor most certainly isn't.  It does have resistances to negative energy AND toxic damage.

 

As for regen being the pillar of Elec Armor's mitigation, a corollary look at the set, the only one that has resistance to -regen that I know of is Rad armor and it likely gets that because of theme.  Not even Regeneration gets resistance to -regen and it *IS* the set's pillar of mitigation so I'd hardly state Elec's lack of -regen resist a hole.

 

I'll restate that my position isn't that Grounded is okay because we need weaknesses to balance out strengths, it's moreso that Grounded isn't in the ballpark of what could even be considered a weakness.  Like, I have no idea why -regen resist was even brought up when I think 2 armor sets have it at all, Rad which is for theme and WP because it has no heal.  In the Dark Armor discussion thread, people were going on about how an energy resistance hole isn't a viable weakness for a tank because of how common that typing is...well, Elec caps that without even trying so that's gotta be considered a monumentally effective strength.  The weakness to neg energy is there but not common and you can just take the tier 9 if you really want toxic resistance, so what weaknesses are we left with?

[Burnt Toast]

Not a fan of people who want to equalize sets... just because. The more changes made to equalize...the less difference each set has to offer. Electric is a great armor set. It can easily be slotted to have great resistance to most everything. My Elect tank has 80%+ resistance to everything (capped resistance to S/L/E) but negative and toxic.... which is perfectly fine since no set should have amazing resistance to everything. It also doesn't worry about end drain with 216% resistance to it. My tank also has over 15 points of KB protection...when it is on the ground. The frickin power is called GROUNDED for a reason. In order to use it... you must be on the ground. Sets are known for their differences...both good and bad. A lot of these proposed changes I see on these forums want to equalize everything which to me takes away from the flavor of individual sets. 

 

I have no issues with Grounded...none. Changing it because people don't like playing on the ground seems silly. A lot of powers require you to be on the ground.... Electric Armor has been around since Issue 6 (7 years on Live) and there is no reason to change it nearly 15 years after release. The more changes that are made...the more this game becomes less like the original game and loses its feel of being more like what people were used to playing. 

 

It seems like so many suggestions want to make everything not only more powerful, but be the same. To that I say...no thanks. I like the diversity in powersets... I like challenges that certain sets make you push through. It seems the suggested power creeps are aimed more at creating "I win" characters than uniqueness and varied playstyles. 

[Razor Cure]

7 hours ago, Burnt Toast said:

Not a fan of people who want to equalize sets... just because.

Big difference between equalizing sets and just wanting to fix some design relics.

If you are gonna cry about diversity, better go ahead and propose some changes to Axe/WM/BS/Kat, which are basically carbon copies of one another. We cant have that!

Back to diversity, I find it really funny that the 2 newest armour sets (rad and bio) are quite similar, with heal/absorb/resists AND full kb prot. How much would you like to bet that no new armour sets will come out that dont have kb protection/resistance, even IF it fit the theme?

Edited May 18, 2020 by Razor Cure

[Nanolathe]

1 hour ago, Razor Cure said:

Big difference between equalizing sets and just wanting to fix some design relics.

If you are gonna cry about diversity, better go ahead and propose some changes to Axe/WM/BS/Kat, which are basically carbon copies of one another. We cant have that!

Back to diversity, I find it really funny that the 2 newest armour sets (rad and bio) are quite similar, with heal/absorb/resists AND full kb prot. How much would you like to bet that no new armour sets will come out that dont have kb protection/resistance, even IF it fit the theme?

I for one would welcome that potential. More sets with more in-built weaknesses that affect gameplay would be great. Although I think more Armour sets aren't at the top of everyone's list I'm still waiting on a good Tech Power Armour set, maybe with Absorb as the main mechanic? As for the KB hole, It's really easy to patch with any 2 of 3 IOs, or a set bonus.

 

And it's not particularly fair to compare Issue 0 launch melee sets to Issue 6 Armour sets. The game had come a long way in that time. But I don't quite understand the dig at wanting more diversity. Are you saying you would vehemently oppose changes to diversify Katana, Battle Axe, Broad Sword and War Mace? Apart from them having slightly different secondary effects and different AoE potential, the power progression on the sets is pretty same-y. And 3 of the 4 sharing the same animation pool is pretty disastrous. I'd say they're much more deserving to be looked at, than this supposed "problem" with Electric Armour. 

 

And isn't it a bit backwards bemoaning the similarities between those 4 sets, and yet at the same time trying to quash this much smaller bit of diversity?

 

Lastly, while Radiation and Bio Armour might have a click heal/absorb and an increased Regen/Recovery over many other sets, the similarities really do end there. Radiation is very much more focused around the player having to balance between endurance and health management for maximum efficiency and is a pure Resistance set with good secondary resists to Recovery Debuff and increased Speed Debuff and Recharge Debuff over its counterpart, with a little bit of natural +Recharge. It's main Resistance hole is Cold. That's almost thematic!

 

Bio is a hybrid set of both Defence and Resistance, while giving the player 3 toggled "styles" that modify their output. It beats out Radiation on both base Recovery and Regen, and has options to push those even further with the adaptations. Meanwhile it gains far fewer secondary resistances. It also spreads out its Mez protection among multiple powers, rather than Radiation's one. Overall the set really pushes the player to be more offensive, with far more of its powers focused on mitigating damage by getting stuck in and debuffing the opponent, while in comparison, Radiation gets an odd PBAoE debuff and team heal?! and a Taunt Aura that's boosting your recharge rate!

 

In fact, these two sets aren't all that similar at a fundamental level... at all! As I've pointed out, they're not both pure Resistance based sets. If your main point is that the two newest armour sets have a click Heal/Absorb... well, it's not like Absorb was a new mechanic at the time of these sets development or anything. Definitely not a desire to show off the new mechanics. Must be a desire for homogeneity. Yes, absolutely. <em sarcasm>

 

They're not even copies of the same power... they have different mechanics and everything.

Edited May 18, 2020 by Nanolathe

[Naraka]

3 hours ago, Razor Cure said:

Big difference between equalizing sets and just wanting to fix some design relics.

If you are gonna cry about diversity, better go ahead and propose some changes to Axe/WM/BS/Kat, which are basically carbon copies of one another. We cant have that!

Back to diversity, I find it really funny that the 2 newest armour sets (rad and bio) are quite similar, with heal/absorb/resists AND full kb prot. How much would you like to bet that no new armour sets will come out that dont have kb protection/resistance, even IF it fit the theme?

I have and would suggest changes to Axe, Broadsword and Katana primarily Axe and Broadsword because those sets need assistance but while you're assisting them, set them apart as well.

 

As for new armor sets, I'd wager we likely won't ever see a new armor set again.  Armor sets are pretty easy to make since they are mainly just visual FX on the player...and yet, we see power pools, manipulation/assault sets and support sets with likely a control set in the pipeline.  Armor sets are pretty boring anyway and since we have the means to color them, make them nearly invisible on your character, put on auras instead and just put IOs on a build to duplicate armor, I don't see a need to ever make another armor set again unless it has a very unique theme/gimmick that can't be emulated elsewhere.

[Razor Cure]

8 hours ago, Nanolathe said:

 

And isn't it a bit backwards bemoaning the similarities between those 4 sets, and yet at the same time trying to quash this much smaller bit of diversity?

Sarcasm is hard. I thought it was pretty obvious sarcasm.

 

8 hours ago, Nanolathe said:

As for the KB hole, It's really easy to patch with any 2 of 3 IOs, or a set bonus.

Just because you CAN fix something, doesnt mean the lack of it in the first place was a great idea (stalker nin vs scrappa/senty nin, anyone?).

8 hours ago, Nanolathe said:

Definitely not a desire to show off the new mechanics.

Awesome point. Lets KEEP adding new sets and mechanics, but not bother with changing OLD sets at all. Again, see time/nature/bio/rad/titanweaps/elec aff all having new mechanics or a huge variety of tools for almost every situation.

[Nanolathe]

 @Razor Cure, "missing" the sarcasm wasn't the point I was making by taking your words at face value. The point is that you're championing a change that reduces a sets unique mechanics, while claiming that the two new armour sets made don't have any diversity or difference in mechanics (which is very false), and at the same time implying that those that want to keep the on-the-ground part of a power called "Grounded" also don't want to see changes made in other areas of the game. For the record, anyone who takes the position of not altering the Grounded power does not automatically mean they are opposed to changing any other sets' powers and you know it. That is a disingenuous claim at best, and a strawman at worst.

 

There are a total of 8 different IO enhancement based solutions to the Knockback "problem", and every single time you dismiss this solution as not good enough. You can get higher, entirely passive KB protection without even taking the Grounded power if you so want, let alone that Grounded is a passive power to begin with. The KB hole is not some insurmountable issue. It is not kneecapping the set in any way for Knockback being the set's main Mez weakness. In fact it's probably the easiest Mez "hole" to completely patch over, without needing any meaningful sacrifices in build efficiency. Electric Armour has not just passable, but rock-solid resistances across the board (except toxic) and goes over 90% of the way to hard capping Energy Resistance at 82.5% unenhanced on Tankers. You hard cap it on every single archetype with access to the power set without even trying!

 

With those slots you might have dedicated to capping your resists, that are now free due to the set's phenomenal base resistances, you could invest in some very effective knockback protection.

Just a thought.

 

Grounded's other effects; that of both energy and negative energy resistance, AND an endurance drain debuff resistance are totally unaffected by being airborne. If you're using hover in combat then you're not even put out of position by being knocked back. You are using Hover in combat, right? You're not expecting your travel power to be carrying you in combat, right? Unless you were to slot your travel power with a universal travel IO set that just so happens to protect you against Knockback! Hey, You can still use Hover too, since the IO's protection is a global effect and doesn't care one whit about which power's you have toggled on or off!

 

I can not fathom why the easiest mez protection to buy on the cheap is the straw that breaks the proverbial pack-animal's back when it's the one omitted from a personal defence set.

 

Edited May 18, 2020 by Nanolathe

[Razor Cure]

7 hours ago, Nanolathe said:

The point is that you're championing a change that reduces a sets unique mechanics, while claiming that the two new armour sets made don't have any diversity or difference in mechanics

Since you apparently cant read..I will quote myself. You ready?

19 hours ago, Razor Cure said:

2 newest armour sets (rad and bio) are quite similar, with heal/absorb/resists AND full kb prot

Hmm. Not seeing the bit where I said they have no diversity or change in mechanics. They ARE however quite similar, in that, as I already said..heal, resist, absorb. If me saying they share 3 stats (which they clearly do), is somehow the same as saying thay have no diversity at all, or no difference in mechanics..well..not a lot I can say to that. Other than try to read what I am actually saying, not what you think I am.

To bring it up AGAIN..the new sets half that KB prot, and I realllllllllllllllly cant see any new sets coming out, having a kb hole. Cause it sucks. And yes, yes, i know KB IOs exist. It STILL SUCKS. In the MM change threads, people were talking about the MM ato's being a 'tax', because you basically have to have em, to be a good MM. Paraphrasing a bit there. Now, I dont believe the ato's are a tax for MMs, but if they ARE, then fire/dark/nin and to some extent elec armour all have a tax in at least one kb IOs to slot. That's 1 taxxed slot no other armour set has!

Just to bring it up again, since the point is just as valid...Stalker Nin vs Other Nin. Oh lookee, it gets kb prot (not resist, but still far better than jack shit). Why? Hmm, is it suddenly the 'theme' of a ninja scrappa/senty (cause you keep banging on about how theme is so important, given the name of grounded) to have kb prot? Go on, I will wait while you try to answer that.

Or could it be the new devs went 'oh hang on, we could get rid of the worst aspect of the set?'

Back to theme again, how MANY other powers do stuff that makes no sense at all? I mean, stone armour has 2 lots of anti mez and kb, but consider an earthquake or avalanche. They both move and shift earth. So surely even as a huge walking boulder, you should get knocked back at least sometime right? Right?

What about SR? Super quick, like the flash. Now I could be wrong, but at least in the TV series, sure, he can dodge basically anything. But when he gets hit..he quite often falls over. Well damn, we better go ahead and change SR to, for theme reasons.

 

Also, if similar set mechanics were SO bad, and varied ones so great..again, why have we only got 3 basic Armour types..Def/Red/Hybrid? Why do only 4 of however many NOT have knockback protection? In case you missed it Nano, the above contains sarcasm.

[Naraka]

36 minutes ago, Razor Cure said:

In the MM change threads, people were talking about the MM ato's being a 'tax', because you basically have to have em, to be a good MM. Paraphrasing a bit there. Now, I dont believe the ato's are a tax for MMs, but if they ARE, then fire/dark/nin and to some extent elec armour all have a tax in at least one kb IOs to slot.

I think the MM pet aura tax situation is rather 2 fold though.  It's 2 fold partially because the powers in the MM primary that can slot those pet auras are limited (in some cases, only 3 powers can slot them and thus 18 slots).  The other aspect is that there are so many.  There are at least 5 different nearly required auras, 6 if you include the ATO and 8 if we're counting all of them, that can be slotted in those 18 slots.  You also have to slot them for accuracy if you want them to hit, damage if you want them to defeat anything and whatever is left is what you can put secondary effects like holds, slows, healing and procs.  Those 18 slots have to go a long way depending on the pet and most powers really don't have such a crunch to worry about in comparison.

 

With regards to the KB IO for certain sets, for most non-tanking situations, you don't need more than 1 of those IOs and they are slottable in nearly your entire armor set or even pool powers you might pick up along the way.

 

So if we're comparing both as a tax, obviously one is more severe than the other, which should be acknowledged.

 

46 minutes ago, Razor Cure said:

Just to bring it up again, since the point is just as valid...Stalker Nin vs Other Nin. Oh lookee, it gets kb prot (not resist, but still far better than jack shit). Why? Hmm, is it suddenly the 'theme' of a ninja scrappa/senty (cause you keep banging on about how theme is so important, given the name of grounded) to have kb prot? Go on, I will wait while you try to answer that.

Frankly, I think it was a mistake.  Not by negligence but of judgement to give non-Stalker Ninjutsu KB protection or at the very least not without giving the AT it originated on the same preferential treatment.  If anything, that is more an example of how meta-gaming, min/maxing and power creep have affected the game moreso than lack of theme cohesion.

 

Stepping away from the argument of theme, concept and other RP related arguments, I ask do you like IOs?  Do you think IOs are a means of customizing builds and characters to your liking?  Or should IOs be a supplementary thing that only minorly assists a build?

 

From my perspective, I feel that IOs should have only given some slight customization of abilities but overall, they provide a significant boost to builds a couple magnitudes above what they should.  If we were talking about rearing back IOs to a point where their addition to a build was more subtle and the only solid alternative to fix such KB holes was to Acrobatics, I could probably syncronize with your position.  But no one wants to look at balancing such aspects of the game.

 

But to be blunt, the sets the sets that lack the most have the most to gain from IOs.  Bio doesn't benefit from KB IOs, for example.  Sets like Fire, Dark and Ninjutsu that are more light on mitigation or have weaknesses like END or lack of resistance can gain far more from the system.

[BrandX]

3 hours ago, Razor Cure said:

Since you apparently cant read..I will quote myself. You ready?

Hmm. Not seeing the bit where I said they have no diversity or change in mechanics. They ARE however quite similar, in that, as I already said..heal, resist, absorb. If me saying they share 3 stats (which they clearly do), is somehow the same as saying thay have no diversity at all, or no difference in mechanics..well..not a lot I can say to that. Other than try to read what I am actually saying, not what you think I am.

To bring it up AGAIN..the new sets half that KB prot, and I realllllllllllllllly cant see any new sets coming out, having a kb hole. Cause it sucks. And yes, yes, i know KB IOs exist. It STILL SUCKS. In the MM change threads, people were talking about the MM ato's being a 'tax', because you basically have to have em, to be a good MM. Paraphrasing a bit there. Now, I dont believe the ato's are a tax for MMs, but if they ARE, then fire/dark/nin and to some extent elec armour all have a tax in at least one kb IOs to slot. That's 1 taxxed slot no other armour set has!

Just to bring it up again, since the point is just as valid...Stalker Nin vs Other Nin. Oh lookee, it gets kb prot (not resist, but still far better than jack shit). Why? Hmm, is it suddenly the 'theme' of a ninja scrappa/senty (cause you keep banging on about how theme is so important, given the name of grounded) to have kb prot? Go on, I will wait while you try to answer that.

Or could it be the new devs went 'oh hang on, we could get rid of the worst aspect of the set?'

Back to theme again, how MANY other powers do stuff that makes no sense at all? I mean, stone armour has 2 lots of anti mez and kb, but consider an earthquake or avalanche. They both move and shift earth. So surely even as a huge walking boulder, you should get knocked back at least sometime right? Right?

What about SR? Super quick, like the flash. Now I could be wrong, but at least in the TV series, sure, he can dodge basically anything. But when he gets hit..he quite often falls over. Well damn, we better go ahead and change SR to, for theme reasons.

 

Also, if similar set mechanics were SO bad, and varied ones so great..again, why have we only got 3 basic Armour types..Def/Red/Hybrid? Why do only 4 of however many NOT have knockback protection? In case you missed it Nano, the above contains sarcasm.

 

I should say, as having a Ninja Stalker, I hardly ever notice the lack of KB.  Dark Armor, Fire Armor, and Electric Armor (since the thread is about Electric) are Resist based sets.  Yes, Dark Armor has one power to build some defense around, but it's pretty much in the same boat as FA and ElecA.

 

Ninjitsu, however, is all about defense.  For it, anyone thing with knock has to first get through the defense, which when built up, isn't really felt that often.

[Burnt Toast]

On 5/17/2020 at 11:04 AM, macskull said:

The idea of keeping weaknesses in a set for "thematic" reasons isn't a good one. If I have to be on or near the ground for this one particular effect of this one particular power to work, why don't the rest of the effects of that power work the same way? For that matter, why don't the rest of the powers in the set work the same way? Removing the "you must be near the ground" restriction patches a hole in the set (and even then only partially since even if you are on the ground Grounded's knockback protection is still weaker than every other armor set's knockback protection) without taking anything away, and the majority of players won't even notice - but the ones who do will be happy. It's a win-win situation. Besides, if we're talking "theme" here, electricity can absolutely jump through air given a high enough voltage, so even that part doesn't make sense.

But it's not weaker than ANY other armor set: TANKER NUMBERS

Bio: 10 points KB

Dark: 0 points KB

Electric: 15.58 points KB

Fire: 0 points KB

Ice: 10 points KB

Invul: 10 points KB

Radiation: 10 points KB

Shield: 10 points KB

Stone: 10 points KB

Super Reflexes: 10 points KB

Willpower: 10 points KB

 

These numbers are the same for Scrappers/Brutes except:

Ninjitsu: 5.19 points KB (Scrapper) - N/A on Brutes

Energy: 10 points KB

Electric: 12.46 points KB (Scrapper) - 15.58 on Brutes

 

In every armor set Electric has the highest mitigation against KB. So I can see why there is a restriction - you have the best of every armor set in your KB protection, but you have to be on the ground for that to be in effect. You may not like it, but it makes sense that the strongest KB protection has a condition and it makes even more sense because of it's name. It literally costs you no slots to have that protection. On my rad tank I devoted an extra slot in my build to get me to 14 points of KB protection so that I could stand toe to toe with most AVs. 

 

Grounded is the strongest KB protection a tank/scrap/brute can get. A tank should really have over 10 points of KB protection since MANY baddies; especially AVs have between 10.382-12 mag KB powers. 

https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/Knockback/Enemies_with_Knockback_Powers

 

Edited May 19, 2020 by Burnt Toast

[Bopper]

2 hours ago, Burnt Toast said:

Stone: 10 points KB

You forgot granite or rooted. 20 KB total

[Razor Cure]

10 hours ago, Burnt Toast said:

But it's not weaker than ANY other armor set: TANKER NUMBERS

Bio: 10 points KB

Dark: 0 points KB

Electric: 15.58 points KB

Fire: 0 points KB

Ice: 10 points KB

Invul: 10 points KB

Radiation: 10 points KB

Shield: 10 points KB

Stone: 10 points KB

Super Reflexes: 10 points KB

Willpower: 10 points KB

Yeah those are correct, but you somehow forgot that ALL those sets, aside from Elec, provide a 1000% resistance to kb/ku.

So yeah, Grounded is the strongest (aside from stone) kb protection, but the weakest kb resistance. Also there are SO few things in the game that are over mag8 kb, that for all the crowing about having the 2nd highest numbers, it basically is NEVER going to come up. Very few teams below 50 and incarnates will be fighting +4 hero or av classes, and they pretty much have to be, to have any chance of actually kbing a melee. I remember back on RSF, a lvl 50 stone brute COULD get knocked back..but it was so rare, and the magnitude so low, you basically just fell over.

At the very least, Grounded should have resistance to kb, when on the grond.

 

17 hours ago, Naraka said:

Frankly, I think it was a mistake.  Not by negligence but of judgement to give non-Stalker Ninjutsu KB protection or at the very least not without giving the AT it originated on the same preferential treatment.  If anything, that is more an example of how meta-gaming, min/maxing and power creep have affected the game moreso than lack of theme cohesion.

Oh you could well be right...but the odds of that 'mistake' being fixed? Since scrappers are a far more popular AT. It would be like if Dark Armour sentinels got KB prot in their powers. All those DA scrappers (at least I know I would) would be totally pissed that a less tanky version of the same powerset suddenly has a pretty important gap covered.

 

 

 

[Noyjitat]

On 5/15/2020 at 12:22 PM, Psyonico said:

Rooted from Stone Armor basically limits you to Teleport (and then you immediately drop from the sky)

 

I do, however, agree that Grounded (and rooted) need to be looked at.  Maybe make grounded work X feet above the ground.

Except in stone armor you basically have god mode stats without having to touch set bonuses and if you invest in set bonuses you can be softcapped to everything and 90% resist all which is why stone armor has penalties to this day. Electric armor on the other hand requires set bonuses.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

On 5/18/2020 at 11:13 PM, Razor Cure said:

Since you apparently cant read..I will quote myself. You ready?

Hmm. Not seeing the bit where I said they have no diversity or change in mechanics. They ARE however quite similar, in that, as I already said..heal, resist, absorb. If me saying they share 3 stats (which they clearly do), is somehow the same as saying thay have no diversity at all, or no difference in mechanics..well..not a lot I can say to that. Other than try to read what I am actually saying, not what you think I am.

To bring it up AGAIN..the new sets half that KB prot, and I realllllllllllllllly cant see any new sets coming out, having a kb hole. Cause it sucks. And yes, yes, i know KB IOs exist. It STILL SUCKS. In the MM change threads, people were talking about the MM ato's being a 'tax', because you basically have to have em, to be a good MM. Paraphrasing a bit there. Now, I dont believe the ato's are a tax for MMs, but if they ARE, then fire/dark/nin and to some extent elec armour all have a tax in at least one kb IOs to slot. That's 1 taxxed slot no other armour set has!

Just to bring it up again, since the point is just as valid...Stalker Nin vs Other Nin. Oh lookee, it gets kb prot (not resist, but still far better than jack shit). Why? Hmm, is it suddenly the 'theme' of a ninja scrappa/senty (cause you keep banging on about how theme is so important, given the name of grounded) to have kb prot? Go on, I will wait while you try to answer that.

Or could it be the new devs went 'oh hang on, we could get rid of the worst aspect of the set?'

Back to theme again, how MANY other powers do stuff that makes no sense at all? I mean, stone armour has 2 lots of anti mez and kb, but consider an earthquake or avalanche. They both move and shift earth. So surely even as a huge walking boulder, you should get knocked back at least sometime right? Right?

What about SR? Super quick, like the flash. Now I could be wrong, but at least in the TV series, sure, he can dodge basically anything. But when he gets hit..he quite often falls over. Well damn, we better go ahead and change SR to, for theme reasons.

 

Also, if similar set mechanics were SO bad, and varied ones so great..again, why have we only got 3 basic Armour types..Def/Red/Hybrid? Why do only 4 of however many NOT have knockback protection? In case you missed it Nano, the above contains sarcasm.

Uhm Heal, Resist, Absorb are not stats. They are aspects. Some sets have all 3 some dont. In free form build games like Champions or DDO. In DDO during the BYOH or bring your own heal movement some years ago, it got labeled the new trinity of self sustain. Mitigation, negation,recovery.  One could state yes the best tanker primary sets have all 3 so they dont need support, but just because there is a clear meta advantage does not mean all things must be built in the shadow of that meta.

 

And you are no master Yoda so leave the Farsight to the star wars games k? Who knows what the HC team will make, but they are not the true devs, what they make is at best fan fiction, so yeah I wont be surprised if it tends to be abit more what a player wants rather than what a dev thinks is balanced. Doesnt mean we need to roid rage up every old beloved set because well the game dif isnt going up, no need to refit the old sets till they do choose to up the abseline dif.

 

Scrappers, and sents are more front line fighter types then a stalker and frankly the sent didnt need it, as they should be hover blasting still. Not all ninja train in the same clan, maybe stalker style ninja just dont care about stable footing so much as about always dancing on their tip toes among caltrops and in smoke clouds?

 

Flash clearly is not a practiced brawler. like superman and other meta their combat power is far more from their raw power than actual ability. This is why the X Men make every new recruit go on survival and boot cmap combat training with wolverine. Colossus beat many stronger meta because unlike them he is also a highly skilled wrestler in the classic Russian style.

 

SR also reps heroes like Spider Man, who even when hit hard almost always catlike lands on his feet and where he wants to land typically not wherever the foe was trying to throw him to.

 

You basically want a power buffed up just because you dont want to bother with an IO, hover, or something? Really this position is just baffling to me when most I know in game with an elec armor user consider it among their best defensive characters. When something is good, why does it need to be made better?

[macskull]

6 hours ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

Scrappers, and sents are more front line fighter types then a stalker and frankly the sent didnt need it, as they should be hover blasting still

Literally laughing out loud that you think any of this is true

[Razor Cure]

10 hours ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

And you are no master Yoda so leave the Farsight to the star wars games k?

Farsight? It is a prediction. And one with a very high chance of being fact.

 

 

 

10 hours ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

Scrappers, and sents are more front line fighter types then a stalker

lol, what? No really. WHAT.

 

I don't need to argue with you after that. It is hilarious.

Edited May 24, 2020 by Razor Cure

[Razor Cure]

10 hours ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

You basically want a power buffed up just because you dont want to bother with an IO, hover, or something? Really this position is just baffling to me when most I know in game with an elec armor user consider it among their best defensive characters. When something is good, why does it need to be made better?

I want the power corrected. Corrected to match EVERY other (bar one) -kb power in the game. ANd also to match the theme of grounded (since people keep trotting out theme as being super important, and a reason WHY elec needs to be on the ground).

The power correction just happens to be in a positive direction..a buff.

Look at Dark Miasma..it recently got a correction, in a negative direction.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

12 hours ago, Razor Cure said:

Farsight? It is a prediction. And one with a very high chance of being fact.

 

 

 

lol, what? No really. WHAT.

 

I don't need to argue with you after that. It is hilarious.

The fact I need to explain to you what I mean says a lot about you and not very good things.

 

Any class in any game that is built around stealth, from D&D rogues,assassins, and shadow dancers, to scouts in tactical squad games like x com, are not defined as front line warrior types. Yes they can and will engage foes often in the most close of quarters.

 

Now its true some changes to stalkers over the years gave them better survival and moved more towards the warrior aspect, but in no game is a class that is about hit and run, stealth tactical play ranked as a front line warrior as DPS dealers who dont have stealth and aggro shedding tools built in.

 

Maybe you are unaware that it was using stalkers and their own survival aspects as the wedge to drive open the door on blaster survival powers? That its because stalker was the red side counter part to blasters( glass cannon DPS) that lead to the bloody sameness of ATs and power sets. Yeah a stalker can kinda scrap now days, and hell sent was basically pointless to put in the game between modern blaster sustains and their tried and trusted dps.

 

As for your prediction my point was to point out true or not is not relevant nor a reason to change old power sets just because. HC and its team is basically a fan fic server atm. maybe should they ever succeed with their goals with NC soft this will be coh reborn, but for now its coh fanmode. Sure HC team can make and do whatever they want, we are not even customers they have to have some accountability to. And yeah so far it seems like HC team stuff tends to be on the OP side of the spectrum at least a tad.

 

But and this is as far as I care the only point that will ever matter in buff discussions. Does the power set need the buff? Is Elec armor so gimp no one uses it? As long as it gets used, as long as it holds its own in content, then it simply is imo a non issue that does not warrant any action, attention, nor time by the volunteer dev team.

[macskull]

7 hours ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

Any class in any game that is built around stealth, from D&D rogues,assassins, and shadow dancers, to scouts in tactical squad games like x com, are not defined as front line warrior types. Yes they can and will engage foes often in the most close of quarters.

So, just like... every other melee AT in the game?

7 hours ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

Now its true some changes to stalkers over the years gave them better survival and moved more towards the warrior aspect, but in no game is a class that is about hit and run, stealth tactical play ranked as a front line warrior as DPS dealers who dont have stealth and aggro shedding tools built in.

"Some changes to Stalkers over the years" completely redefined the role, playstyle, and abilities of a Stalker. Prior to the Issue 12 Stalker crit changes a Stalker had decent first strike capability and was after that point a shittier, squishier Scrapper (and since the two ATs use the same values for their defensive powers that squishiness was simply the smaller HP pool). After the Issue 22 assassin's focus changes, and combined with the two ATO procs, today's Stalker behaves almost nothing like the Stalkers of Issue 6 except that they can still get guaranteed crits from a hidden status (oh, and two other ATs can do that now too). Only in the rarest of circumstances were Stalkers ever really about "hit and run, stealth tactical play" and that's pretty much not at all true these days.

7 hours ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

Maybe you are unaware that it was using stalkers and their own survival aspects as the wedge to drive open the door on blaster survival powers? That its because stalker was the red side counter part to blasters( glass cannon DPS) that lead to the bloody sameness of ATs and power sets. Yeah a stalker can kinda scrap now days, and hell sent was basically pointless to put in the game between modern blaster sustains and their tried and trusted dps.

Stalkers weren't the redside equivalent to Blasters since Blasters don't have an analogue with the redside ATs. Arguably the closest thing is a Dominator.

7 hours ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

But and this is as far as I care the only point that will ever matter in buff discussions. Does the power set need the buff? Is Elec armor so gimp no one uses it? As long as it gets used, as long as it holds its own in content, then it simply is imo a non issue that does not warrant any action, attention, nor time by the volunteer dev team.

"As long as it gets used" is a really shitty argument to think a set shouldn't get a buff. Regeneration is one of the most popular Scrapper secondaries in terms of characters created, but you can't seriously argue that it's a good set relative to the other options.

 

That being said, I'm going to take this opportunity to exit this discussion. It's clear to me based on what I've seen in other threads that you're very opinionated but usually wrong (I seem to recall a quote something like "I'm Bentley goddamn Berkeley and I don't care what you think") and your grasp of how the game is actually played is tenuous at best. Does the set need Grounded fixed? No, no set in this game needs anything - but there is no good argument against making the change. "It's a thematic weakness!" No, lower negative energy resists is a thematic weakness. "That's how electricity works though!" No, it isn't, and even if that were the case then the other aspects of the power, or even other powers in the set, would work the same way. "It'll make all the sets the same!" No, it won't.

Edited May 24, 2020 by macskull

[Indystruck]

Bentley likes to get off on multiparagraph tangents that have little to do with the topic at hand, don't even worry about it.

[Razor Cure]

On 5/24/2020 at 11:30 PM, Bentley Berkeley said:

The fact I need to explain to you what I mean says a lot about you and not very good things.

Or it just says that you talk bullshit. Which..given the comment about Sentinels (you know, a ranged class) being more front line than stalkers, is pretty bang on.

 

 

[ForeverLaxx]

Honestly, I don't really see Grounded as being much of an issue. It really only limits the use of Flight powers in combat, but you can slot your travel powers with the KB Resist IOs for those times you need to jump around to adjust positioning. You'll have knockback while in the air this way, albeit less, but your vulnerability window is only for as long as you stay in the air.

 

I just don't see the issue.

[ninja surprise]

On 5/17/2020 at 10:36 AM, Naraka said:

Secondly, how many encounters involved consistent vertical movement while engaged in combat?  And of those, how many are strictly team oriented thus the importance of an individual's state of KB protection isn't as pivotal as the state of the team?

 

Pretty much every encounter ever.  I don't know if I'm ever in a combat where I don't jump at least once - into the spawn or around the spawn to get into a better position for a cone/aoe/etc. Or when fighting and traveling through caves, Freakshow office maps, or any map with stuff on the floor that's easier to jump over than run around.

Do you normally never leave the ground during play? 

 

I don't know what that "state of the team" thing is supposed to mean... if I'm getting knocked down I don't look around and sigh in relief "at least I'm the only one". It still means I can't fight or heal or taunt or something.

 

But personally I would put a KB IO into Fly since its speed can't be enhanced anyway and not worry about it.