Difficulty idea: Friendly fire?

[Lazarillo]

This isn't necessarily something I'd want, but it seems popular in various other RPGs.  I've been playing Radiation Armor lately, and it's been making me think about all the people find the game to face-roll-y with spamming Judgment powers, Destiny, etc, so thinking about how Ground Zero has an effect on both allies and enemies (just different effects), I started thinking: for the people that want a "challenge", what would you say to a mode where you flagged yourself to be hittable by your own allies AoEs, your group buffs buffed enemies, etc?

 

Y'all think that would be implementable, and if so, would it satisfy the ones who want to take things a little more...strategically to have to assess how safe it was to use their powers in certain places?  Doubly so if it applied to enemies, so things like "Don't kill the Immunes Surgeons, stay near them!" might become a new ITF mantra, and such.

Edited May 27, 2020 by Lazarillo

[Greycat]

6 minutes ago, Lazarillo said:

 Doubly so if it applied to enemies, so things like "Don't kill the Immunes Surgeons, stay near them!" might become a new ITF mantra, and such.

As someone who likes control sets, especially with confuse, I can pretty much guarantee *that* won't happen. Just like anchor targets, they seem to get killed immediately before they can help the team at all.

[Razor Cure]

It would NEVER work in a game in which most fights end up a big pile on, with most of a team very close to the action.

[gameboy1234]

Right, it's an interesting idea, but the game would have be rebuilt from the ground up.  There's no way it could work as-is.  It would nearly destroy all the viable tactics people using in game, especially herding and gather mobs together, with absolutely no pay off.

Edited May 27, 2020 by gameboy1234

[Greycat]

Just now, Razor Cure said:

It would NEVER work in a game in which most fights end up a big pile on, with most of a team very close to the action.

Also this, yes. Friendly fire is one thing when you're in something like a first person shooter, where it's you (and/or a small team) dealing with things as they come along. It's another when you have powers that will affect 36 targets (I think that's the upper limit of Judgement?) in a certain area, and people *must* be by the enemies for powers to work.

 

Then what about things like Clarion? Or Howling Twilight? Are you now suddenly giving mez protection or rezzing all the enemies in a specific area? We can't *pick* who to affect with AOEs (it's part of why the AOE buff "buff" irks me - I can't skip people who don't want a certain buff.) I could see controllers and doms suddenly becoming MUCH less welcome as a result of something like this. Force Field becomeing even LESS played because you're also buffing enemies...

 

No, I don't think I'd like this at all.

[Coyotedancer]

All it would do  to "add challenge" is make life short, painful and not a lot of fun for melee types.

 

 

Edited May 27, 2020 by Coyotedancer

[ImpousVileTerror]

Friendly Fire was brought up in another thread, where we did a little digging in to it with some consideration there too.

 

https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/14039-challenge-mode-any-ideas/?tab=comments#comment-147088

https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/14039-challenge-mode-any-ideas/page/2/?tab=comments#comment-218668

 

It may be worth consulting.

[Lazarillo]

8 minutes ago, gameboy1234 said:

It would nearly destroy all the viable tactics people using in game, especially herding and gather mobs together, with absolutely no pay off.

I guess, and I'm not trying to be snarky here, but...I kind of got the impression people were unhappy with the way a lot of those same viable tactics make them find the game too easy.  So setting it as an optional mission mode seemed to me like a way to give them that different approach.

Edited May 27, 2020 by Lazarillo

[ImpousVileTerror]

Different folks and different strokes.

 

As an option?  As discussed in the other thread, from a technical standpoint, periodic Confuse would be much easier to implement and get roughly the same outcome.

But obviously it would NEED to be optional.  I can scarcely imagine the backlash if it became the standard modus operandi. 

[gameboy1234]

1 minute ago, Lazarillo said:

I guess, and I'm not trying to be snarky here, but...I kind of got the impression people were unhappy with the way a lot of those same viable tactics make them find the game too easy.  So setting it as an optional mission mode seemed to me like a way to give them that different approach.

An optional mission mode is an interesting idea, if that was mentioned I missed it.  But I think you'd have to define a special type of mission for this to be fun.  Otherwise it's just going to a gigantic bore fest as three-fourths of people's powers go unused.  (And I'm not sure what the new mission type would be.   I was going to say "maybe involving less combat" but no, that would be bad too.)

 

[Lazarillo]

Yeah, sorry if I didn't make clear I was thinking about it from the perspective of an option.  I didn't use that exact word, but I guess I expected the mention "mode where you flagged yourself" would make it clear, but it might not have.

[Naraka]

Going a different route of consideration besides the standard "It wouldn't work" since I'm sure the OP doesn't think it as a solution but a hypothetical.  Instead, I'd just take the circumstance presented and see what I would think to do if I were in such a game mode.

 

Firstly, I'd assume that certain effects wouldn't be "all targets" just to keep utility in powers that inflict confuse.  These are specific PBAoE heals/buffs.  Such effects would still be AoE but only affect allies so that, if a foe is confused, they will still only affect the opposite faction rather than having no effect. It would also keep the Leadership pool from just being a thorn in everyone's sides.  I'd also go on the assumption that your own AoE attacks don't hurt yourself since it wouldn't make since that a ranged AT using a PBAoE nuke would hurt themselves with their own nuke or throwing their TAoE at close range wouldn't also blast themselves.  I'd also assume that powers that have a 16 target cap would still be limited to that cap so adding a teammember in there would take up one of those targets.  Taunting effects should also probably be limited to opposing factions too...it wouldn't make sense to "friendly fire" taunt.

 

With those circumstances, I'd say cones would suddenly be very useful since you can direct your attacks to cause less harm to all allies, maybe only putting certain sturdy allies in the radius.  You might not fill out the target cap but you could still be hitting some foes while completely avoiding targeting your allies.

 

Tactics might be more of a detriment.  If you have allies with high defense but only slot moderately for Acc, you could probably still spam a lot of AoEs, rarely hitting them in the first place and keeping tactics *OFF* would keep it that way.

 

Obviously, single target strategies would be your best bet.  It's the safest option.  It would still likely be good to have volley fire action, having your team queue up their AoEs together before the melees rush in.  After the melees are in place, you probably want to cool off on the AoEs.  Someone mentioned control ATs not being welcome, I disagree and say that they'd probably end up being the proxy tank on a team of mostly ranged ATs.  The controller CCs things in place and everyone else just plasters the mobs with AoEs.  The problem would be if you're a lone melee in that group to which it might be helpful for the ranged ATs to coordinate targeting the furthest foes in a group rather than the center.

 

A lot of people were boo booing on armor set Tier 9s but with the extra survival, you're practically completely safe save for situations like an Invuln melee with a psi nuker.  I can also see Dark Miasma being less popular since a lot of its premier effects are AoE, namely Tar Patch and Darkest Night.  I can also see Storm Summoning being difficult to use.  Kinetics would likely be more safe than Storm if only because most of its effects would likely not cross that friendly fire line (fulcrum shift specifically targets foes and allies so it'd make since it wouldn't be affected).

 

Tankers might feel a bit safer regardless of friendly fire, the team just might have to coordinate their AoEs a bit so not everyone is firing them off at the same time...basically, if the Tanker is being pushed to red, stop using AoEs.  But I get the feeling a Tanker has the chops to be built to stand in a sea of friendly fire and still perform.

 

Also, bring on your Granite Tankers/Brutes!  Also, bring on your Force Field support!  If everyone is at 55% def to all and no one has tactics running, save for some auto-hit effects (that you should coordinate), everyone should be golden for the most part.

 

I could possibly see some kind of extra stat added to buff sets that specifically decreases the damage of friendly fire.  I also see this causing very specific meta builds focused even more on defense than currently.  Fighting pool might even be more mandatory than it is now with Maneuvers also being a staple to eek out more team defense.

 

If buffs like Insulation Shield/Ice Shield/Sonic Barrier/etc ended up affecting foes and allies if used, the obvious solution is to not cast it during combat or at the very least, wait until there are far fewer foes left when you do.  ST focused buffs suddenly seem a lot more interesting if that is the case.

 

RIP Masterminds.

Edited May 27, 2020 by Naraka

[Outrider_01]

• hittable by your own allies AoEs,

And thats not abusable?  I loved shooting ass holes in world of tanks, large caliber HE shell would "rekt" a tank and leave them still alive.  Now, I never started a fight but those keyboard licking map pingers or General Keyboard trying to order people; fun times dealing with annoying twats.  Now, 8 years later there is no friendly fire and pretty sure it was 101% abuse of the mechanics instead of accidental fire.

 

And those with no KB protection?  Not everyone slots Steadfast or slot 3 of a IO set all the time.  You want more KB "fix" suggestions?

 

•  your group buffs buffed enemies,

Guaranteed no one is gonna use this and you will be soloing a lot of the time if you did.

 

And you should try Scirocco's arc, you will not like perma confused by Malaise, 5 minutes I can't get back of my life while fighting illusion pets I can't kill or a EB I can't hit.  Doesn't help the illusions couldn't really kill me either.  Now its Scorpion everytime.

[MTeague]

Intersesting to experiment wtih as an OPTIONAL setting. 

Not something I'd want to see enabled full-time.

I mean, I've SEEN these blasters, they don't care WHO's next to the targets, a big cluster is GOING to get nuked....

[Yoru-hime]

There are just too many AoE focused sets. What is a rad defender supposed to do, simply stop using most of their primary? The moment that debuff anchor gets into melee range, Very Bad Things start happening, particularly if some of the mobs are still firing ranged attacks from outside the debuff zone.

 

This would probably have to be a team-level option, so probably limited to Ouroboros and TFs, otherwise the potential for abuse goes way too high.

 

Really, it would change the nature of the game from fighting against the enemy to fighting against our own abilities. I wouldn't really expect this option to be very popular once the novelty wore off.

[EmmySky]

My first thought on reading this was that this person wants full game, always on PvP.  I normally disregard my first thought because I do tend toward hyperbole.  My second thought was that this person doesn't realize they are advocating for full game, always on PvP.  An only slightly more kind thought.

 

Either way, hard no from me.  I have been working on incarnate on one of my DP/mc blasters the last week or so and her final attack has her spinning and jumping and firing bullets in every conceivable direction.  I would be kicked from so many teams.  

[gameboy1234]

On 5/26/2020 at 6:24 PM, Lazarillo said:

I guess, and I'm not trying to be snarky here, but...I kind of got the impression people were unhappy with the way a lot of those same viable tactics make them find the game too easy.  So setting it as an optional mission mode seemed to me like a way to give them that different approach.

I missed this reply somehow, and it just showed up for me now.  Part of my reply said "no payoff" and that's what you have to focus on.  It's not just the idea of a new mission type or friendly fire itself, but what do I as a player get from this?  In other words, how is this fun?  You can't just introduce arbitrary mechanics and expect people to enjoy it.  There has to be some pay off.

 

If the game had been designed with this in mind from the start, it might have worked.  As the game is right now, nearly every system has been designed with idea that players will deal with mobs by dropping AoE on them.  There's no real set of powers or affordance that allows a player to do things differently, and if there were then every player in the game would need it.   Otherwise some or all of the team will stand around being bored.  It's just an insurmountable amount of work and change in mindset for everyone, with out a clear plan as to how this would actually happen, I don't see any path at all to actually make it happen.

 

If the goal is to remove herding then I think you should try some other means.  On another thread about increasing the difficulty someone brought up tweaking mob AI so that it doesn't bunch up as much.  I think ideas along that line is a lot more feasible and players might actually find it fun.

 

(As I'm typing this, I'm thinking about AI that won't bunch together, and OK what would a player do about that?  Besides "just power through it" there might be some sort of CC that allows players to bunch mobs up on their own.  Kockback could be used to push recalcitrant mobs into position, and other powers might work is some similar fashion.  But there aren't enough such powers in the game right now, so we're back to the problem of how to add enough in so that people aren't just bored with the new mechanic.)

 

In summary: game design is hard.

 

[Blackfeather]

It does sound like an idea with a lot of potential - having elements like these help to make an often ignored part of the game more interesting: positioning! It's not for everyone, but I can see it having its appeal as an option at least. Plus, I imagine it'd mean enemies would also be affected by their own attacks.

 

I can see viable strategies such as a Defender rushing in with Personal Force Field, getting the attention of all the enemies there, and having the mob damage themselves. Seeing Malta accidentally stun/drain themselves due to taking their own hits, or Circle of Thorns mages knocking themselves down due to their own Earthquake would be very amusing too. Though I imagine that's not the intent of the suggestion.

 

That being said, I think if applied, the concept would only apply to some powers and not for others to work effectively. For instance:

• Buff/Debuff toggle powers such definitely wouldn't work well with melee characters trying to get in close, so it makes sense that they'd be exempt
  • E.g. Darkest Night, Radiation Infection
• Aura toggle powers are similar in nature - it's not really feasible to make them work with friendly fire on. What if there are multiple Tankers/Brutes on the team?
  • E.g. Venomous Gas, Arctic Air, Hot Feet
• Single target powers would of course be unaffected - I assume the whole friendly fire thing would only occur by accident after all

In other words, I see this difficulty option as mainly affecting one shot area of effect powers. For example, AoE healing powers, most targeted AoE powers.

 

Some complications that I can see with this are from powers that have a lingering effect, such as Ice Slick - a continual patch of slipping that also affects allies? It might be alright since melee characters tend to have protection against these kinds of things, and less durable characters tend to want to fight from a distance, but that's something to keep in mind.

[ShardWarrior]

No thank you.  We do not need to give the few bad apples out there yet another tool to grief others.

[Haijinx]

Might be cool.  But without AOE zone indicators for the players (like in a lot of newer games) might really be hard to deal with.  

 

 

[Haijinx]

On 5/26/2020 at 9:16 PM, gameboy1234 said:

Right, it's an interesting idea, but the game would have be rebuilt from the ground up.  There's no way it could work as-is.  It would nearly destroy all the viable tactics people using in game, especially herding and gather mobs together, with absolutely no pay off.

This is my thought.  However I do love the idea for new MMOs in general.   So I feel like it deserves consideration just on how much fun something like that would be. 

 

I wonder if it would work in more modern take on  a SCI FI small unit combat MMO like Anarchy Online originally was, or Tabula Rasa, Or Neocron or something.  

 

 

[Ruin Mage]

No.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

Keep in mind in the PNP roots of games like this, such as the Icon that is D&D, friendly fire and killing yourself with a fireball thrown too close is very much a thing. In most of the classic D&D PC games, friendly fire is a part of the harder difficulties. Hell look at Divinity Original Sin and Magicka both very popular sword and sorcery multiplayer co op games with friendly fire and especially in the real time Magicka for such to easily kill your partner on accident.

 

Now I am not saying it could ever work in CoH. But honestly if we did just go full friendly fire and make us have to not throw aoe heals when mobs are thick on you, and for only the tankiest types to stand by the pbaoe nuker types we could then finally drop red/blue side bs and let everyone wander everywhere and if people attack people, well people will deal with it. Likewise make every mob in the game simply con to us like GMs do with no inherent level, and the game becomes a pretty immersive world imo.

 

I mean as an old school PnP player the idea of having to be careful with my aoes, only use a mass cure when only allies and or enemy undead are near etc, the tactics of sucha  system are well known to me. But I do wonder how well the trinity tank and spank faction could handle this.

[blayzemaster]

Unless you plan to add AI to the various non-controllable pets, this would be a very hard no, as they'd run absolute haywire with full friendly fire.

 

Even with that, it's a hard no. This game is just too balanced and AoEs and there's just too many of them for this to work.

[Grouchybeast]

Leaving aside griefing, the internet can be laggy, and characters and mobs not always where they look to be on the screen.  At the moment that doesn't matter very much, but it definitely would with friendly fire.

 

Powers like Fulcrum Shift or Heat Loss would either need to be completely reworked, or to have special case rules attached to them to keep them functioning as they do now.