Could we give Sentinel's an effective way to tank?

[Ry]

So I was thinking, with Sentinel's inherit power being rather lacking (or at least in my experience) I thought of a few ways to fix this; many say "MORE DAMAGE!" but honestly? I don't think that's we need to do here. Hear me out. Sentinel's secondaries (depending on what you go for) can make them pretty bulky, so why not lean into that? I thought of two ways to do this.

 

1) Give every ranged set the option to slot for taunt enhancements. This can give players the option to take a bit of aggro away from their teammates and provide more use. Sentinel's inherit power only really works best if it stacks with other Sentinel's, its not exactly a universal thing. So -this- could help with that.

 

2) When Opportunity hits, be it offensive or defensive. Have an AoE taunt effect added to it, so when you debuff one target, those around it go "Hey, they're picking on Mikey! Get um!" again this could provide more universal mileage for a Sentinel. 

 

So that's my new suggestion for Sentinel's, let me know what you guys think. Now in regards to coding this, like for pretty much everything I have no idea how much hassle it would be. The code of this game is a mystery I'll never solve. But given the fact Sentinel's have armour sets, some of which are improvements on the originals, I thought it'd be fun to share my new opinion on the subject. I'll leave a poll in case anyone would like to vote on which suggestion is better!

 

Take care and have a nice day! 😄

[Zeraphia]

I'm sorry, but... I'm going to just vote no to this. Sentinels are not meant to be Tankers, this is a heavily misguided idea. They are meant to be like ranged Scrappers, that was confirmed by the Devs, and they will not be given taunts or increased AoE caps (this was in fact firmly rejected by Homecoming devs). Their primary is a blast, their secondary is a defense set. Their primary feature is damage, that feature is not as competitive as others with the same features, so it feels lackluster in comparison to everything else. Some may argue that's just the power creep and Sentinels are just rounded to where they're supposed to be but I think there is a more consistently agreed train of thought that Sentinels are under-performing across the board. 

 

What you're looking for is something like a Tank-Mage with no hard hitting damage, just really the blast set would (likely) do less than what we see Sentinels even currently have (which honestly I don't think is a horrible idea as long as it takes the damage hit). What you're asking for is an entirely new AT compared to what Sentinels are supposed to be and could very well be in the future. 

 

Personally, I would much rather have a "ranged Scrapper" come into fruition than I would a Tank-Mage.

[SwitchFade]

Sorry, I must no vote.

[Ry]

35 minutes ago, Zeraphia said:

I'm sorry, but... I'm going to just vote no to this. Sentinels are not meant to be Tankers, this is a heavily misguided idea. They are meant to be like ranged Scrappers, that was confirmed by the Devs, and they will not be given taunts or increased AoE caps (this was in fact firmly rejected by Homecoming devs). Their primary is a blast, their secondary is a defense set. Their primary feature is damage, that feature is not as competitive as others with the same features, so it feels lackluster in comparison to everything else. Some may argue that's just the power creep and Sentinels are just rounded to where they're supposed to be but I think there is a more consistently agreed train of thought that Sentinels are under-performing across the board. 

 

What you're looking for is something like a Tank-Mage with no hard hitting damage, just really the blast set would (likely) do less than what we see Sentinels even currently have (which honestly I don't think is a horrible idea as long as it takes the damage hit). What you're asking for is an entirely new AT compared to what Sentinels are supposed to be and could very well be in the future. 

 

Personally, I would much rather have a "ranged Scrapper" come into fruition than I would a Tank-Mage.

Fair enough! I honestly had no idea they were meant to be like ranged Scrappers. Because that honestly isn't isnt what they feel like to me -at all-. Like, not even close. A new AT could be interesting but I don't think that'll be happening any time soon. Oddly enough, I'd say Corruptor's are closer to a ranged scrapper since Scourge is -technically- a critical hit. Thank you for the feedback! 🙂

[Ry]

31 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

Sorry, I must no vote.

That's okay Switch, how would you improve a Sentinel? Or do you think they're fine as they are? Genuinely curious!

[Zeraphia]

7 minutes ago, Ry said:

That's okay Switch, how would you improve a Sentinel? Or do you think they're fine as they are? Genuinely curious!

I know you didn't ask for my opinion, but I'm going to give the general thought from most of the community on how to go about improving them:

 

1. The damage scalar needs to be raised. That's a pretty consistent thought about them. I fully agree, and honestly I think you could put them on the 1.000 or 1.125 scalar and be absolutely fine given that *they have no Sniper* thus will always be firmly behind Blaster damage. This is pretty across-the-board, other suggestions are a little more "subjective."

2. Opportunity needs to be reworked. There are a lot of opinions about this, and honestly I don't think you'll please anyone with just one solution to it. There is one pretty consistent answer though: it should not be tied or force you to pick both of your weakest ST powers in order to use your "inherent" to activate it. It isn't married to cottage rule so changing it to something entirely different isn't out of the question. Crits, damage bonus as your opportunity fills, raising the -res bonus, making it easier to fill, are all among the most popular ideas for reworking the opportunity. My personal favorite would be crits on a higher Scalar not tied to any powers and completely doing away with the -res, would be very flashy and interesting, would definitely make them feel like ranged Scrappers!

3. And there is the Defensive side of Opportunity... Lots of people gain very minimal benefit out of it and ignore it entirely and they also will never use their T2 for it to gain the bonus. Then there are others who really enjoy this benefit of opportunity and vehemently defend its effectiveness and would be very sad if it were gutted entirely. I'm of the opinion it may be wiser to just tweak the numbers on the basic secondary powersets slightly and improve their basic survivability rather than keep it at all, but I wouldn't be opposed if it was kept, I just don't want it to be the reason that it keeps from getting an actually great inherent offensively.

4. Some powersets need balancing. AR in particular can use some very serious tinkering in comparison to other sets.

 

I'm really trying not to step on anyone's toes or generalize them, there are many different ideas about how to improve the sentinels. However, most will say: higher damage scalar, and a reworked inherent, details and how to go about doing that are very subject to opinion. 

[Six-Six]

I have an elec/elec/elec sent that I use as a tank. very sturdy she is. if you want taunt, there's a power pool for it, though if you have an aura like elec, running around and inflicting damage will get their attention... at least enough for herding. On my other sents, I use the T1 and T2 to get their attention, again for herding. You can't redirect aggro to you like a proper tank, though.

[MTeague]

Would you give this same Taunting slotting option / taunting power to a Scrapper?

If not, why give it to a Sentinel?

 

In many many ways, a Sentinel is a Scrapper with lower damage on each strike, but better range, and typically more AE attacks.

[MTeague]

For what I would do for Sents.... 

• I'd like to see the activation of Defensive / Offensive Opportuntiy divorced from your T1-T2 blasts.  Give them two click powers instead, not unlike how a Dominator triggers Domination. Your opportunity bar still fills same as it does now, and when full you can click EITHER Defensive Opportunity OR Offensive Opportunity.  But it doesnt' matter which power you used to trigger it.  Yes, it would make it an extra mouse click, but it would also allow some alternate power selection choices along the way.
• I'd like to see a mild increase to Sentinel damage.  They should still hurt things less than a Blaster (because Sents have personal armor and status protection), and less than a Scrapper (because Sents have Range). But maybe look at the current gap, and try to bump it half that distance. 

That's really about it.  I'm not sure they need any more. 

[Ry]

2 hours ago, Zeraphia said:

I know you didn't ask for my opinion, but I'm going to give the general thought from most of the community on how to go about improving them

I basically asked for everyone's opinion by even starting the topic, don't sweat it Zera 😉

 

But you're right, reworking the inherit in some way is something everyone can agree on. You're not stepping on anyones toes by pointing that out! ^^

 

[Ry]

10 minutes ago, MTeague said:

Would you give this same Taunting slotting option / taunting power to a Scrapper?

If not, why give it to a Sentinel?

 

In many many ways, a Sentinel is a Scrapper with lower damage on each strike, but better range, and typically more AE attacks.

Scrapper's have a taunt, I don't know the numbers exactly but I know they have a clickable taunt. For example Martial Arts has "Warriors Challenge". As for making slottable taunting options for them. I don't think it would be very useful on a Scrapper as they focus waaaay more on damage. But after reading through what others say Sentinels getting a reworked inherit and a damage buff seems to be the general agreement, which is totally fine. I might try build one to be a bit bulkier as an experiment. Either way the class does need a fix of some kind.

[EmmySky]

I know they have been referred to as ranged scrappers but their damage doesn't back that up.  I use mine to take alpha a lot and some way to hold that aggro would be welcome.  With decent defense and lowish damage they really feel like ranged tanks to me and thats how I play them.

 

By and large, I am good with whatever the dev team decides to do, with sentinels or with any power situation.  I am just happy to have my game 😀

Edited June 5, 2020 by EmmySky

[Snowdaze]

I like how people have started putting votes up with their suggestions, but in this case you are forcing people to take your side with your vote.

 

I vote Sentinels are not tanks and do not need a taunt.

[EmmySky]

16 minutes ago, Snowdaze said:

I like how people have started putting votes up with their suggestions, but in this case you are forcing people to take your side with your vote.

 

I vote Sentinels are not tanks and do not need a taunt.

Nobody is forced to vote. 

 

I agree there might should be a 'no change' vote but its not like this is 'what are the devs doing next' this is simply 'what kind of taunt might work best for sentinels'.

[Bossk_Hogg]

Scrappers can semi tank for small teams, so, stands to reason a ranged scrapper should be able to. 

 

My vote is to ditch opportunity as a click entirely and replace it with two mutually exclusive toggles. Offensive has a 20% non-stacking resistance debuff on all single target attacks, and Defensive provides the healing/end gain it currently does for the entire team, up the debuff/buff numbers of the sentine and applies a mag 2 taunt to all their single target attacks. Enough to draw aggro if they desire, and hopefully to stop some of the endless running we frequently encounter. 

 

This removes the link between Offensive/Defensive as your t1/2 blasts, and expands their team functionality. A character that changes roles is way too good to forcibly link it to "also looks like crab/squid". 

 

 

Edited June 5, 2020 by Bossk_Hogg

[Troo]

[MTeague]

Scrappers can semi tank for small teams, but it's generally not by means of a Taunt power. 

I will accept, in principle, that somewhere, some Scrapper, has actually taken Confront.  I've NEVER seen it, but I'll accept that it's possible. 

 

Scrappers don't really...."tank"... in the traditional sense.  They dive first into the pile and soak an alpha, and they carve things up.  But they're not controlling aggro, they're just presenting themselves as first available target for mobs to shoot at, and then it's a complete free-for-all.  Alpha goes to the scrapper, but Beta Strike and Gamma Strike?  Round and round she goes, where it stops, nobody knows! Anything not aggro'd more by someone else still attack you, but it's unrealistic to expect to hold ALL the aggro.  My Spines/Regen Stalker does this all the time when he teams.

 

You can do exactly that with a Sentinel, as is.  Shields up. Do not hang back.  Hop directly into melee ahead of the rest of your team.  Unleash your attacks as fast as you can.  You'll soak the alpha.  Probably a few will die before Beta and Gamma strikes so there will be less firepower to go around.  But those strikes will be mixed. Some to you, some to the blaster, some to a debuffer, etc. 

 

That's already enough for a Sentinel, "tanking", I think.  I did exactly that last night in a lowbie Praetoria group (Imperial City 14-16 range).

 

 

[Zeraphia]

2 minutes ago, MTeague said:

Scrappers can semi tank for small teams, but it's generally not by means of a Taunt power. 

I will accept, in principle, that somewhere, some Scrapper, has actually taken Confront.  I've NEVER seen it, but I'll accept that it's possible. 

 

Scrappers don't really...."tank"... in the traditional sense.  They dive first into the pile and soak an alpha, and they carve things up.  But they're not controlling aggro, they're just presenting themselves as first available target for mobs to shoot at, and then it's a complete free-for-all.  Alpha goes to the scrapper, but Beta Strike and Gamma Strike?  Round and round she goes, where it stops, nobody knows! Anything not aggro'd more by someone else still attack you, but it's unrealistic to expect to hold ALL the aggro.  My Spines/Regen Stalker does this all the time when he teams.

 

You can do exactly that with a Sentinel, as is.  Shields up. Do not hang back.  Hop directly into melee ahead of the rest of your team.  Unleash your attacks as fast as you can.  You'll soak the alpha.  Probably a few will die before Beta and Gamma strikes so there will be less firepower to go around.  But those strikes will be mixed. Some to you, some to the blaster, some to a debuffer, etc. 

 

That's already enough for a Sentinel, "tanking", I think.  I did exactly that last night in a lowbie Praetoria group (Imperial City 14-16 range).

 

 

I will speak as having one of those Scrappers with Confront, it's definitely not the same thing as a Tanker. The reason my Scrapper has Taunt is to do things like maintain an AV's attention (such as LR) when I know I can take him on for speed running. Now as it pertains to a Sentinel, I just don't see why they really need a Taunt type of power, and honestly, I don't really see why Scrappers do either other than "lazy" porting (but IMO, the ship has sailed so far passed the shore on that one that it's not worth reforming every one of the 20? melee sets to replace Confront). Tanker vs. Scrapper really is a big difference in survivability in terms of dealing with the harder-hitting AV's and enemy groups along with maintaining their attention and I've definitely noticed that and I think trying to get the Sentinel to that level of Tankiness is clearly unintended and wouldn't be by the AT's design. I'll be honest, when I first saw Sentinels, I saw them more as "Blasters with an Armor set" rather than "ranged Scrappers." It was only after I saw from dev comments/comments from others that I really saw why I was disappointed in them, because I was setting an expectation for something that was clearly not supposed to happen. I then realized that I quite liked the idea of a ranged Scrapper and I saw that there are ways to improve its damage to get it to that point as well as interesting concepts to renew the game in a more fresh experience, which I think is healthy for a game as old as this is. 

[Saiyajinzoningen]

well this is quite interesting. There have been a few cases where my sentinel has to hold aggro for a few moments. Cant one simply grab provoke from the presence pool?

[Zepp]

Sentinels are like Scrappers with lower health, protections, and damage, but they have range and a useless inherent.

 

Stancing would be a terrible solution to their inherent as it doesn't actually deal with the issue that their inherent, even if used, is likely the most lackluster inherent out there. However, if you combine the two halves of the inherent and have it pop off on any single target attack, and it would be pretty much fine. Stancing is an annoying mechanic enjoyed by a small portion of the population that do not mind dealing with an annoying AF mechanic that most of them ignore by staying in one stance the entire time anyway...

Taunts, like Confront on Scrappers, are likely to be completely ignored by most Sentinels...

[Snowdaze]

3 hours ago, EmmySky said:

Nobody is forced to vote. 

 

I agree there might should be a 'no change' vote but its not like this is 'what are the devs doing next' this is simply 'what kind of taunt might work best for sentinels'.

oh I know, I didn't vote, but I'm one of those "statistics" people and if you only post options "for" something it gives a skewed perception of where the community actually stands. And I'm not going to predict or presume how a vote with both a pro and a con would turn out but, if the cons would normally have 90% and you only give pro options, then you are kind of trying to mute the opposition.

[Rathulfr]

2 hours ago, Zeraphia said:

I'll be honest, when I first saw Sentinels, I saw them more as "Blasters with an Armor set" rather than "ranged Scrappers." It was only after I saw from dev comments/comments from others that I really saw why I was disappointed in them, because I was setting an expectation for something that was clearly not supposed to happen. I then realized that I quite liked the idea of a ranged Scrapper and I saw that there are ways to improve its damage to get it to that point as well as interesting concepts to renew the game in a more fresh experience, which I think is healthy for a game as old as this is.

My Sentiments exactly.

[Sakura Tenshi]

I don't mind ranged scrappers, though I have noticed 'sentinels are unexpectedly tanky' is a surprisingly common sentiment among my circle. That being said, my own biggest complaints with Sentinels and how I'd want to fix it would be as follows:

 

1. increase the range on AoEs: I personally feel the 40 ft. range limit on all AoEs is painfully unnecessary. Now mind you, there's probably good balance reasons for this, especially if the tier 9 is a targeted AoE for the set as a means of shrinking the difference between a sentinel who has slightly more safety with their strongest attacks having ranged and those which are PBAoEs. But, I'd personally like it if all Sentinel attacks had a 60 ft range to them. (also, this is a little too late to happen, but now that I mention it, kind of wish Sentinel versions of all blast sets had Targeted AoEs/cones for their tier nines to furthur distinguish them from blasters, corruptors, and defenders)
2. Changes to Opportunity: Hot take on this is that I sort of like the opportunity stance system for the most part, what I don't like is that its activation is tied to the tier 1 and 2 powers, limiting build options. I would personally prefer it if it was two separate inherent buttons sort of like domination with no activation time or animations so (as presumably was the intent with tying the activation to attacks) attack chains can still flow continuously and without interruption. Also, I would like it if opportunity lasted just a bit longer, this is largely because I often find myself using Defensive Opportunity to keep my endurance up, either by using the endurance gain to negate the consumption of Single Target attacks or using AoEs to actually refuel.

Actually when I put it like that opportunity still doesn't seem so good as it basically makes it a choice between 'do actual damage through a questionably useful resistance debuff' or 'continue to do any damage at all because end consumption will remove all your DPS otherwise'. I also realize my outlook right now is massively biased as I have limited experience with sentinels as well.

[...]

i dont think sents should tank