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Real talk: Defense vs Resist build costs


ninja surprise
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First up: I'm seriously disillusioned on Resist builds. My main on Live was a Dark Melee / Super Reflexes Scrapper. Didn't tank much that I can recall, and trying out lots of Tanks and Brutes here. Got a SR/Elec and Shield/Stone tank to 50 and they are a blast.  I read the forums and get itchy to try out other stuff, but keep getting frustrated at how certainly the Resist sets get squashed down and die. 

Are they only good after 50 + Incarnate + tons of IO investment?

 

For a Defense build I get the toggles, a couple sets each giving +Melee, Ranged, AoE, the +Def uniques in a Resist power, and poof: Softcapped for less than 100 mil nice and early. Barely ever get hit and survive most content (besides those horrible Rularuu, some DE stuff, etc).  Carnies, Malta, and most of the mobs hated by all are barely a speedbump. Still works great when exemping for TFs or teams.

 

But I try out Willpower: Can't regen fast enough, get whittled down and die.

Invuln: Survive until Dull Pain doesn't recharge and die, or get attacked by something not S/L.

Radiation Armor: Survive until I try to punch and can't click a heal. Or: take alpha, heal, then get squashed.

Dark Armor: Heal twice, run out of End and die.

 

I look for build tips and to cap resists it looks like it requires a lot of six-slotting sets where every piece costs 20+ mil, loads of uniques and procs, and then Incarnate buffs. You can add +Def that lasts until the first debuff.

 

Is Resist a bowl of rose colored glasses? Is there a good, cheap resist set/build? Or is it pure end-game godliness?

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1 hour ago, ninja surprise said:

But I try out Willpower: Can't regen fast enough, get whittled down and die.

Invuln: Survive until Dull Pain doesn't recharge and die, or get attacked by something not S/L.

Radiation Armor: Survive until I try to punch and can't click a heal. Or: take alpha, heal, then get squashed.

Dark Armor: Heal twice, run out of End and die.

My impression is mis-management of expectations. Invulnerability and Willpower are not "Resist" sets, but blended hybrids of defense and resistance together. The tactic with their capabilities is balancing the two in an appropriate way: Cap S/L Resists, and try and Soft Cap F/C/E/N as a simple base line. I can pull some resources from my Tanker PM topic for you here:

 

This is what I call a "core" build, and this one in particular is for Invulnerability. It has high value S/L (near capped) Resists, and a base line of 32.5% defenses that Soft Cap at full Invincibility saturation. This particular core is also fairly cheap to build, and does not require any further expectation/investment to work reasonably well in the game:

Spoiler

Hero Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.6.0.7
https://github.com/ImaginaryDevelopment/imaginary-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 49 Magic Tanker
Primary Power Set: Invulnerability
Secondary Power Set: Stone Melee
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Leaping

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Resist Physical Damage -- StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), GldArm-3defTpProc(13)
Level 1: Stone Fist -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Temp Invulnerability -- Ags-ResDam(A), Ags-ResDam/EndRdx(3), Ags-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(3), Ags-ResDam/Rchg(13)
Level 4: Dull Pain -- Prv-Heal(A), Prv-Heal/EndRdx(5), Prv-EndRdx/Rchg(5), Prv-Heal/Rchg(7), Prv-Heal/Rchg/EndRdx(7), Prv-Absorb%(9)
Level 6: Resist Elements -- RctArm-ResDam(A), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx(11), RctArm-ResDam/Rchg(33)
Level 8: Unyielding -- HO:Ribo(A), HO:Ribo(9)
Level 10: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), RedFrt-Def(17), RedFrt-EndRdx(17), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx(21), RedFrt-Def/Rchg(21), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(23)
Level 12: Resist Energies -- RctArm-ResDam(A), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx(15), RctArm-ResDam/Rchg(23)
Level 14: Tactics -- AdjTrg-ToHit/EndRdx(A), GssSynFr--ToHit/EndRdx(31)
Level 16: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(25)
Level 18: Invincibility -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), Rct-Def(19), Rct-Def/EndRdx(19), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(25), Rct-ResDam%(31)
Level 20: [Empty]
Level 22: [Empty]
Level 24: [Empty]
Level 26: Tough Hide -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), RedFrt-Def(27), RedFrt-EndRdx(27), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx(29), RedFrt-Def/Rchg(29), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(31)
Level 28: [Empty]
Level 30: [Empty]
Level 32: [Empty]
Level 35: [Empty]
Level 38: [Empty]
Level 41: [Empty]
Level 44: [Empty]
Level 47: [Empty]
Level 49: Combat Jumping -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(11)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-EndMod(A), PrfShf-End%(15)
------------

 

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For full-on Resistance sets like Radiation and Dark Armors you can go two directions with them. One is to try and splash in Defense of some level to add to its survivability, and the other is to try and maximize resistances in order to hard cap as many as possible. A Tanker floating at 90% Resistance with supplemental healing will already be very difficult to kill, and yes there is a big difference between being at 90% value versus 50% value. It is possible to (again) get a mid-line core put together that will function well without breaking the piggy bank open. Here is a Dark Armor core:

 

Spoiler

Hero Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.6.0.7
https://github.com/ImaginaryDevelopment/imaginary-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 49 Magic Tanker
Primary Power Set: Dark Armor
Secondary Power Set: Spines
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Speed

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Death Shroud -- SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg(A), SprMghoft-Dmg/Rchg(3), SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(3), SprMghoft-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(5), SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(5), SprMghoft-Rchg/Res%(7)
Level 1: [Empty]
Level 2: Dark Embrace -- TtnCtn-ResDam(A), TtnCtn-ResDam/EndRdx(7), TtnCtn-ResDam/Rchg(9), TtnCtn-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(9)
Level 4: Murky Cloud -- TtnCtn-ResDam(A), TtnCtn-ResDam/EndRdx(11), TtnCtn-ResDam/Rchg(11), TtnCtn-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(27)
Level 6: Obsidian Shield -- GldArm-ResDam(A), GldArm-End/Res(29), GldArm-3defTpProc(29)
Level 8: Dark Regeneration -- ScrDrv-Acc/Dmg(A), ScrDrv-Dmg/EndRdx(31), Erd-%Dam(31), ScrDrv-Dam%(31), Obl-%Dam(33), TchoftheN-%Dam(33)
Level 10: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 12: Cloak of Darkness -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), RedFrt-Def(13), RedFrt-EndRdx(13), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx(15), RedFrt-Def/Rchg(15), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(17)
Level 14: Tough -- StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), EndRdx-I(33)
Level 16: Weave -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), RedFrt-Def(17), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx(19), RedFrt-Def/Rchg(19), RedFrt-EndRdx(25), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(27)
Level 18: Cloak of Fear -- Empty(A)
Level 20: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), ShlWal-Def(21), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx(21), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(23), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(23), Rct-ResDam%(25)
Level 22: Tactics -- AdjTrg-ToHit/EndRdx(A), GssSynFr--ToHit/EndRdx(34)
Level 24: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(34)
Level 26: [Empty]
Level 28: [Empty]
Level 30: [Empty]
Level 32: [Empty]
Level 35: [Empty]
Level 38: [Empty]
Level 41: [Empty]
Level 44: [Empty]
Level 47: [Empty]
Level 49: [Empty]
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(36), Mrc-Rcvry+(36)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-EndMod(A), PrfShf-End%(36)
------------

 

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I run a Dark Armor Scrapper that's at 75% Resists and 45% Melee Defense and I barely ever touch Dark Regen in non-Incarnate content. You pointed out the ability for debuff on the defense to occur, and that can, but a Resistance toon can easily look past those short term issues in most cases so long as they have a strong foundation for their primary shield method. In some cases its possible to completely forgo defense at all like I did with this Radiation/Spines:

 

Spoiler

Hero Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.6.0.7
https://github.com/ImaginaryDevelopment/imaginary-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Magic Tanker
Primary Power Set: Radiation Armor
Secondary Power Set: Spines
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Soul Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Alpha Barrier -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(5), UnbGrd-EndRdx/Rchg(7), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(17), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(17), UnbGrd-Max HP%(23)
Level 1: Barb Swipe -- SprMghoft-Rchg/Res%(A), Mk'Bit-Dam%(13), Hct-Dam%(15), SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg(36), SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(36), SprMghoft-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(37)
Level 2: Gamma Boost -- RgnTss-Regen+(A), PrfShf-EndMod(3), PrfShf-End%(3)
Level 4: Proton Armor -- TtnCtn-ResDam(A), TtnCtn-ResDam/EndRdx(5), TtnCtn-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(25), TtnCtn-ResDam/Rchg(25)
Level 6: Fallout Shelter -- UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(7)
Level 8: Radiation Therapy -- SprGntFis-Rchg/+Absorb(A), Erd-%Dam(9), TchoftheN-%Dam(9), Obl-%Dam(11), ScrDrv-Dam%(11), FuroftheG-ResDeb%(13)
Level 10: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 12: Beta Decay -- AnlWkn-Acc/Rchg/EndRdx(A), AchHee-ResDeb%(15)
Level 14: Tough -- TtnCtn-ResDam(A), TtnCtn-ResDam/EndRdx(33), TtnCtn-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(33), TtnCtn-EndRdx(34)
Level 16: Combat Jumping -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(31), Rct-ResDam%(31)
Level 18: Particle Shielding -- Prv-Heal(A), Prv-Heal/EndRdx(19), Prv-EndRdx/Rchg(19), Prv-Heal/Rchg(21), Prv-Heal/Rchg/EndRdx(21), Prv-Absorb%(23)
Level 20: Spine Burst -- ScrDrv-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(A), ScrDrv-Acc/Dmg(39), ScrDrv-Dam%(39), Arm-Dmg/EndRdx(39), Arm-Dam%(40), OvrFrc-Dam/KB(40)
Level 22: Taunt -- PrfZng-Dam%(A)
Level 24: Build Up -- RechRdx-I(A), GssSynFr--Build%(33)
Level 26: Ground Zero -- Arm-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(A), Erd-%Dam(27), ScrDrv-Dam%(27), Obl-%Dam(29), ShlBrk-%Dam(29), TchofLadG-%Dam(31)
Level 28: Ripper -- SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(A), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg(37), ExpStr-Dam%(37), ScrDrv-Dam%(46), Obl-%Dam(48), FrcFdb-Rechg%(48)
Level 30: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(46)
Level 32: Assault -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 35: Quills -- ScrDrv-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(A), ScrDrv-Acc/Dmg(43), ScrDrv-Dmg/EndRdx(43), ScrDrv-Dam%(45), Obl-%Dam(45), ImpSwf-Dam%(45)
Level 38: Throw Spines -- PstBls-Acc/Dmg(A), PstBls-Dmg/EndRdx(40), PstBls-Dam%(42), JvlVll-Dam%(42), Ann-ResDeb%(42), ImpSwf-Dam%(43)
Level 41: Gloom -- SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg(A), SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(46), Apc-Dmg/EndRdx(48), CldSns-%Dam(50), GldJvl-Dam%(50), Apc-Dam%(50)
Level 44: Super Speed -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 47: Tactics -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 49: Vengeance -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(34), Mrc-Rcvry+(34)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-EndMod(A), PrfShf-End%(36)
------------

 

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That build completely skips out on defense, yet it still does really well and has no issues running most content, I even threw it at +4/x8 stuff and it held up fine.

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5 hours ago, ninja surprise said:

First up: I'm seriously disillusioned on Resist builds. My main on Live was a Dark Melee / Super Reflexes Scrapper. Didn't tank much that I can recall, and trying out lots of Tanks and Brutes here. Got a SR/Elec and Shield/Stone tank to 50 and they are a blast.  I read the forums and get itchy to try out other stuff, but keep getting frustrated at how certainly the Resist sets get squashed down and die. 

Are they only good after 50 + Incarnate + tons of IO investment?

 

For a Defense build I get the toggles, a couple sets each giving +Melee, Ranged, AoE, the +Def uniques in a Resist power, and poof: Softcapped for less than 100 mil nice and early. Barely ever get hit and survive most content (besides those horrible Rularuu, some DE stuff, etc).  Carnies, Malta, and most of the mobs hated by all are barely a speedbump. Still works great when exemping for TFs or teams.

 

But I try out Willpower: Can't regen fast enough, get whittled down and die.

Invuln: Survive until Dull Pain doesn't recharge and die, or get attacked by something not S/L.

Radiation Armor: Survive until I try to punch and can't click a heal. Or: take alpha, heal, then get squashed.

Dark Armor: Heal twice, run out of End and die.

 

I look for build tips and to cap resists it looks like it requires a lot of six-slotting sets where every piece costs 20+ mil, loads of uniques and procs, and then Incarnate buffs. You can add +Def that lasts until the first debuff.

 

Is Resist a bowl of rose colored glasses? Is there a good, cheap resist set/build? Or is it pure end-game godliness?

No, resists are, IMO, the strongest sets. Radiation in particular is a beast because it has debuff resistance to everything that matters. Any and all resist based set can reach 45% to S/L and Melee which is ample enough a security blanket considering the 90% resists, but few defense based sets reach 90% resists. And then there's the nut stuff like the Rad/MA build I have a bit lower that has 90% to most and then 45% defense to Malee/Ranged/AoE on top of being near impervious to killer things like endurance/recovery attacks.

 

If you're doing leveling or simple content, such as sticking to Council missions, then there is no need to spend exorbitant sums to min-max your build.

 

I'm going to go and say you're not using proper builds though. Dark Armor's endurance woes, i.e., has long since been solved by including a simple cheapo Theft of Essence in Dark Regen to the point it being a endurance hog is no longer even mentioned.

 

A 'noob trap' (personal opinion) in Radiation Armor is trying to grab the mini nukes and ooh and aaah at the big 'splosions they do every 25-30 seconds where those powers could be exchanged for weaker AoE but that can be used three times during the recharge.

 

 

You ought not shy away from the '20 million' IOs since a simple Hami + Tinpex a day (one hour total, though getting there early to then wait for the Hami raid to finish forming may take another extra half hour) nets 50 million. That's two of those purples a day and if you play more and do other stuff it can mean three or four of those purples (doing the other Hami raid as well for example). In two weeks you're maxed. And if you decide not to play that character you can respec, grab all the IOs, and throw them on your next alt who they too will be able to earn those 50 mill a day if you care to take them to the Hami/Tinpex. My signature has more information on this.

Edited by Sovera
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The armor sets are all pretty good. Give any of them the two +3% Def IOs and the +5% Res and +3%/Scaling Res IOs, and they all become far more resilient. Throw in the Absorb proc, maybe the +Heal/+End, maybe some +Regen or even the +Max HP. Now you should be very tough no matter what power set you're running.

Help yourself out with good supplemental defenses from Combat Jumping, Tough, Weave, and/or Maneuvers.

This is all before sets or incarnate powers.

Edited by Wavicle
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I'm definitely on the side of resists > defenses. However, it's a situation where half-measures don't cut it.

 

If you've got 60% resist to a damage type, then you're only taking 40% of the damage dealt. If you hit 90%, it's a mere 10%. If you have 2000 health, this is the difference between having an effective health of 5k and having an effective health of 20k.

 

The benefit of resists is that they always work. You can't get 'unlucky' with resists and you don't run afoul of situations where defense debuffs or abnormally high hit chances negate your primary mitigation strategy. In almost any situation that would be considered a tanking challenge, you really want that resist-based Tanker.

 

There's also the issue that as you scale up difficulty, you're going to get a lot more support from others for your defenses than your resists. Maneuvers (and to a lesser extent, Grant Invisibility) are abilities anyone can take - and large numbers of players do (since it provides their own defense). Defense-based support AT tend to be more popular (for unrelated reasons) and the resist-based support AT tend not to cover the holes of defense-based armor sets very well.

 

However, building the 90%-to-most resist-based Tanker tends to be difficult. Most of the time, you're going to depend on the ATO proc. For non-Electric Tankers, you're probably going to need to put a lot of effort in Energy resist. Almost all Tanker builds have either a Toxic or Psi hole - hitting 90% on both is nearly impossible without making serious compromises elsewhere.

 

Defense and Regen/Healing strategies do tend to reach acceptable levels of mitigation faster than resist-based sets. But once you've slotted everything up, the resist-based sets tend to be significantly tougher.

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10 hours ago, ninja surprise said:

Invuln: Survive until Dull Pain doesn't recharge and die, or get attacked by something not S/L.

 

8 hours ago, Sir Myshkin said:

My impression is mis-management of expectations. Invulnerability and Willpower are not "Resist" sets, but blended hybrids of defense and resistance together. The tactic with their capabilities is balancing the two in an appropriate way: Cap S/L Resists, and try and Soft Cap F/C/E/N as a simple base line.

 

On the general topic of Invulnerability, I agree with Sir Myshkin: Manage your expectations. Without using the Fighting Pool (or Combat Jumping, or Hover) the non-positional (and non-Psi) defenses can all sit at around 30%... without any +Defense enemy buffs from Invincibility. The same sort of build can casually have 50% - 70% resists to every typed damage. With extra HP I found that after a certain point in the game I could run this sort of build solo against a LOT of content without ever touching Dull Pain. It isn't handling uber-difficult settings and TFs meant for teams, but it is plenty durable.

 

One thing I will caution about Invulnerability: It isn't necessary to go over-the-top with slotting for Resist Physical Damage/Elements/Energies or Temporary Invulnerability. The toggles are a perfectly satisfactory baseline. Assuming that Endurance is under control: the main reason to slot them is for specific IO set bonuses, typically typed Defenses and Resists.

 

The Homecoming Tankers now provide and improved buffs for Leadership toggles, so Maneuvers should be (at the very least) considered for most Tankers.

 

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6 hours ago, Sovera said:

You ought not shy away from the '20 million' IOs since a simple Hami + Tinpex a day (one hour total, though getting there early to then wait for the Hami raid to finish forming may take another extra half hour) nets 50 million. That's two of those purples a day and if you play more and do other stuff it can mean three or four of those purples (doing the other Hami raid as well for example). In two weeks you're maxed. And if you decide not to play that character you can respec, grab all the IOs, and throw them on your next alt who they too will be able to earn those 50 mill a day if you care to take them to the Hami/Tinpex. My signature has more information on this.

This would confirm Resist is a way-past-endgame build: You have to get to 50 before you can even start earning the stuff to make it good. And even after you have the sets you have to get the next alt to 50 before it can slot the purples and Hamis. Is that accurate?

 

10 hours ago, Sir Myshkin said:

My impression is mis-management of expectations. Invulnerability and Willpower are not "Resist" sets, but blended hybrids of defense and resistance together. The tactic with their capabilities is balancing the two in an appropriate way: Cap S/L Resists, and try and Soft Cap F/C/E/N as a simple base line. I can pull some resources from my Tanker PM topic for you here:

 

You're right. 

With Invuln I'd been following an old plan to soft-cap Smash/Lethal defense as a way to avoid most damage that is mixed Smash/*.  With Willpower I'd try to get as many +Regen bonuses and uniques as I could, but it still couldn't beat the incoming damage. So I put them all onto a Defense toon and sing glory glory halleluia.

It'll take me a little while to look through the builds you posted, thank you for putting them up.

6 hours ago, Wavicle said:

The armor sets are all pretty good. Give any of them the two +3% Def IOs and the +5% Res and +3%/Scaling Res IOs, and they all become far more resilient. Throw in the Absorb proc, maybe the +Heal/+End, maybe some +Regen or even the +Max HP. Now you should be very tough no matter what power set you're running.

That's what I do with my Def toons and they become super survivable at around level 25.  (Some of the uniques or sets have a minimum level of 22.) (And of course it takes longer for a SR Scrapper since they don't get Evasion until 32.)

 

And I know Defense is random. The other day I was on an ITF with a Staff/SR Brute. It survived everything, including multiple instances of the team wiping during the Generals and Phalanx Computer missions, but Rommie's nictus negative energy AoE would two-shot it. It seems to be non-positional NE damage.

And my funky Titan/Ninjitsu Scrapper will survive an entire Tin Mage without any problems whatsoever... except those tentacles around the pylons kill it faster than the heal recharges.

 

But my poor resist toons, oh boy they just get whittled down till defeat. My Rad/Rad Brute just got Tough at 40 though, so I hope that makes more difference with some slots in it. I'll respec with some of the tips in this thread.

I plan on taking another stab at Electric Armor too. I had an Elec/SS on live named Paranoid Heroine because it seemed like everyone was out to get her.

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1 hour ago, ninja surprise said:

This would confirm Resist is a way-past-endgame build: You have to get to 50 before you can even start earning the stuff to make it good. And even after you have the sets you have to get the next alt to 50 before it can slot the purples and Hamis. Is that accurate?

 

No. My rad tanker was tough from level 1 onwards. You seem to have already made up your mind though, as well as being shy about spending influence, so I'm not sure what else I can contribute to this conversation.

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My Method. 

I stay away from Tough, Weave and Maneuvers on a tank. Well pretty much any toon I hate wasting power picks on them. Personal Preference. I have only one an Energy Melee/Invul Brute that I went the Tough and Weave route with. It was my most tedious grind. Getting Access to Cross Punch was a good prize at the end of the Fighting Pool Tunnel though. 

 

I take all my Primary Powers and all my Secondary Powers ASAP.

I always take AirSup. Great mitigation. 

I take CJ and SJ most always. Sometimes I have to wait a bit to pick up the travel power, so I'll purchase a Jet Pack or a Jet Board.

 

That leaves plenty of room for a stray pool power something fun, and Ancillary picks.

 

I rarely have to respec.

 

This works for my Rad/WM tank, and my Ice/Stone. First is resist, second defense.  Ill use this for all my tank builds. Elec/Elec, Fire/Savage coming up next. 

 

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I think managing expectations sums it up, I am a huge lover of active defense, I love the secondaries for utility purposes and can garner extra survivability from them. You don't have to take an alpha, alpha them instead, you don't have to always be in melee taking the full attack chain in order to maintain taunt control and tank. There is not one way to play, adapt with what you are and who you team with. Let Scrappers, Brutes have some aggro so it's not all yours, they probably don't need a tank anyway. Let others play to their strengths and if they don't know how, know enough of the game to let them know what they are.

 

I have been armoured up and I got bored with my lack of offensiveness and so armoured down for more attacks and had ended up with the same net effect in some cases albeit fight durations are shorter.  Extra pool powers are like comfort blankets until you have a process of elimination. I would have targeting macros to pick out my number one target to say, hold, one shot whatever and move on from there, as an Invuln you wouldn't save sappers to last. All enemy groups have something depending on what you tank with.

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Some players make their characters all about them, if it doesn't help them, they don't want it, their build advice to you will ofcourse be about making your character the best thing that helps them too if they ever team with you, because it's always about them.

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10 hours ago, ninja surprise said:

This would confirm Resist is a way-past-endgame build: You have to get to 50 before you can even start earning the stuff to make it good. And even after you have the sets you have to get the next alt to 50 before it can slot the purples and Hamis. Is that accurate?

Many IO sets can be slotted at 20 (a few earlier than that, but the mass amount start here) and work their way up, the next threshold is usually 25, with a few other exceptions around 30 or 35, and then Purple IO's at 50. Attuned enhancements can be slotted whenever their coordinating IO could have, and level up with you making them a good investment to level with. You also have the HO's which you can start collecting up from Hamidon Raids and LRSF/MLTF's. None of these options require you to level another character to slot them, they're all individually specific to that character.

 

Typically I have most of my characters "fully" slotted with their permanent enhancements by around level 35-40, with the upcoming enhancements sitting in my trays waiting to be dropped in as the slots become available. I personally use attuned versions of everything to give maximum exemplar capacity and have taken a fair amount of characters all the way down to level 10 and maintained a significant portion of their bonuses.

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On 6/8/2020 at 10:58 AM, Sovera said:

No. My rad tanker was tough from level 1 onwards. You seem to have already made up your mind though, as well as being shy about spending influence, so I'm not sure what else I can contribute to this conversation.

Somewhat shy, yes.  I'll DFB a toon to 8, then do Posi 1 and 2, Synapse, and Yin. Trade those merits for Boosters to sell and hopefully buy all the IOs needed to thrive. I play the market a bit but don't farm.

But does this imply resist armors need to be expensive to be good? For instance: comparing these Ice vs Radiation Armors.

Ice hits softcap on S/L/E/N by 30, has a sweet heal, and a big fat Fire and Psi hole.

Rad with Tough gets into the mid-80's resistance to S/L/E/T and a bit lower on the others closer to 40.  Without Tough S/L is low 60%.  I found the build on the forums and tweaked it into a leveling build. I replaced the purples and Tanker sets with IOs that could be slotted at 30.

 

On the other hand, Ice is probably the cheapest to soft-cap. Capping M/R/AoE typically requires six-slotting attack sets.

 

The last couple days I've been playing a Staff/Invulnerability Brute. It's around level 33 with 55% S/L resist. Playing at +0x4 it does pretty well, dying occasionally when I forget to watch the green bar.  Invincibility bumps defense to around 30% when surrounded by a bunch of critters.

 

I'm going to try a respec on my Rad/Rad to get Tough earlier, slot in some Touches of Death/Mako's Bite and things, see if I can't get it tougher. right now at level 41 with Tough it's at about 50% resist to each type. 😞 Very few set bonuses or uniques. That's why I was looking at builds and wondering if resist requires a ton of expensive sets to be excellent. (EDIT: forgot my Rad/Rad is a Brute, maybe the lower base values is why it's so wimpy.)

 

 

icearmor.png

radiation.png

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2 minutes ago, ninja surprise said:

Somewhat shy, yes.  I'll DFB a toon to 8, then do Posi 1 and 2, Synapse, and Yin. Trade those merits for Boosters to sell and hopefully buy all the IOs needed to thrive. I play the market a bit but don't farm.

But does this imply resist armors need to be expensive to be good? For instance: comparing these Ice vs Radiation Armors.

Ice hits softcap on S/L/E/N by 30, has a sweet heal, and a big fat Fire and Psi hole.

Rad with Tough gets into the mid-80's resistance to S/L/E/T and a bit lower on the others closer to 40.  Without Tough S/L is low 60%.  I found the build on the forums and tweaked it into a leveling build. I replaced the purples and Tanker sets with IOs that could be slotted at 30.

 

On the other hand, Ice is probably the cheapest to soft-cap. Capping M/R/AoE typically requires six-slotting attack sets.

 

The last couple days I've been playing a Staff/Invulnerability Brute. It's around level 33 with 55% S/L resist. Playing at +0x4 it does pretty well, dying occasionally when I forget to watch the green bar.  Invincibility bumps defense to around 30% when surrounded by a bunch of critters.

 

I'm going to try a respec on my Rad/Rad to get Tough earlier, slot in some Touches of Death/Mako's Bite and things, see if I can't get it tougher. right now at level 41 with Tough it's at about 50% resist to each type. 😞 Very few set bonuses or uniques. That's why I was looking at builds and wondering if resist requires a ton of expensive sets to be excellent.

 

We can think of it as early game VS end game, but keeping in mind defense works perfectly fine most of the time. This is purely min-max talk. The important thing here is that you're looking at the ease of becoming tough in the early levels as more valuable on the long run.

 

Taking two or three days to reach end game is pretty normal simply doing TFs. I do one TF of each and by Manticore I'm just a couple bars short. No repeats. That makes 'tougher early' not a very valuable metric unless leveling rrrrreally sloooooowly.

 

One thing to consider are inspirations. They make leveling easy. With a base macro instead of clicking to exit the mission once it is over we can just use the macro and replenish insps and then move to the next mission. And we don't need to hit 45% to be safe. We are in a team and the team will obliterate everything. 30-35% while leveling is enough, and one small purple is 12% of that.

 

If you don't want to use them that's fine too, but I can say leveling my Fire Armor and Rad Armor was very easy (especially rad armor) and more so than the defense armors since a small purple gives 12.5% to reach 45%, but a small orange gives 10% to reach 90%. So a resist based character can have 6% from both uniques, 2.5% from Hover or Combat jumping, another 2.5% from Maneuvers, buy Kinetic Combats for their melee attacks (this is all stuff that I do) and end with 20ish% or more to S/L. Add ATOs (I have a full set of both normal and superior that I transfer when I stop playing an alt) and by level 35-ish I can about 28-32% defense to S/L. That makes a big difference.

 

Now, things you really need to be less shy about: buying both 3% defense uniques. Even though they cost 4-5 mill one and 10-12 million the other that's a fat 6% defense. Kinetic Combat are pretty decent to level with (throw a Kismet 6% into Hover or Combat Jumping to compensate for the low accuracy) and give 3.75% S/L defense . The Shield Wall and Reactive Defenses uniques add to another 8% to all resists.

 

All of these are expensive but you can, should, transfer them between characters. A respec recipe costs 1-2 mill, unslotters cost 150k. Don't leave expensive stuff laying around. I have in my signature how to easily transfer stuff between characters.

 

 

 

This is a heap of words that don't really matter. Since defense works well and you like defense, then sticking to defense will work just fine. You don't need to force yourself to play a resistance based character. If you do want I can throw a level 41 build for you to try if you want to respec into it (you do get four free respecs by then).

 

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51 minutes ago, Sovera said:

One thing to consider are inspirations. They make leveling easy. With a base macro instead of clicking to exit the mission once it is over we can just use the macro and replenish insps and then move to the next mission. And we don't need to hit 45% to be safe. We are in a team and the team will obliterate everything. 30-35% while leveling is enough, and one small purple is 12% of that.

 

Yep, if I'm not self-inspiring I'm wasting drops! I try to use them as fast as they come so I keep getting more. I have a set of binds to use each type of insp, and to combine anything into the one I need next. So sometimes between spawns I'll hit shift+h a bunch of times to make more heals, etc.

53 minutes ago, Sovera said:

Now, things you really need to be less shy about: buying both 3% defense uniques. Even though they cost 4-5 mill one and 10-12 million the other that's a fat 6% defense. Kinetic Combat are pretty decent to level with (throw a Kismet 6% into Hover or Combat Jumping to compensate for the low accuracy) and give 3.75% S/L defense . The Shield Wall and Reactive Defenses uniques add to another 8% to all resists.

 

Yep, got those. I didn't know about the Shield Defense one until recently, and then quite luckily got one via recipe drop. Whenever I get a PvP drop I craft it then convert it into a +Def or +Health unique.

I have three tubs in my base to store enhancements and move them between characters.  I have a bunch of alts-in-progress and if I tire of one I respec, pull everything out, transfer the toon to a different server, and roll something new.  I'm slowly getting a collection of purples from drops and Market Crash TFs. No ATOs (except a Stalker hide proc) or Winter sets though.

 

The funny thing about teaming - things go so well with teammates and buffs that I get all high and mighty then go solo and faceplant. 

After respec my Rad/Rad Brute has about 70% resist to most and did pretty well on a Manticore set to +1 or +2.  I only died once because I forgot my health bar. But then I set up binds for both heals and then I could survive through each spawn.

 

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Speaking solely about Radiation Armor . . . back when Homecoming started up, my Radiation Armor/Super Strength tanker, at about level 30, tanked the massive Freakshow ambush at the end of the Penny Yin TF - and she did that purely on SOs/CIOs.

 

You don't need an expensive IO build to be tough as a Tanker. It just helps when you want to go from Tough to Godly ^_^.

 

You also don't need expensive sets in every power, when you're aiming for a tricked-out IO build. For my resist toggles, I often use three pieces of the Titanium Coating set. While leveling to 50, I often rely on Crushing Impacts for my melee powers, and the set is perfectly serviceable even for a level 50.  The trick is deciding what set bonuses you want to chase, and then deciding what IO sets will give you those.

 

Hope this helps,

 

- Loranna

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On 6/8/2020 at 9:52 AM, ninja surprise said:

With Willpower I'd try to get as many +Regen bonuses and uniques as I could, but it still couldn't beat the incoming damage. So I put them all onto a Defense toon and sing glory glory halleluia.

It'll take me a little while to look through the builds you posted, thank you for putting them up.

 

Chasing regeneration boosts on WP is a fool's errand (they simply can't amount to enough to really matter-I've tried before). The way to approach is to leverage the other defenses which effectively multiply your regeneration rate. Willpower is a l/s resistance set, and a defense set to everything else. On a tank it is not hard at all to cap l/s resistance and the typed defenses as well. Once all that is done, WP is extremely durable. About the only weakness ends up being debuffs, which can hurt a lot if they pile on. 

 

I find that resistance sets (rad/elec/fire) are all pretty capable for much of the level run as long as you grab tough fairly early, and can get the tank ATOs in place. About the only complaint I have on any of them is the long recharge on electric armor's heal. It could use a bit of help there, but otherwise they are all pretty tough sets. Radiation armor is damned tough, though I'd say the trick is to have particle shielding on auto fire (and enough recharge that the absorption is permanent). 

 

After fiddling around in DA with all the enemies there, I definitely find that the resistance sets are the way to go. There's lots of debuffs and exotic damage types flying around. It is possible to get to incarnate softcaps, but I found a bunch of things shooting right through it on my overcapped SR tanker. 

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I have very little feel for AH costs, because my SGs act as collectives and we fuss over all sorts of things and keep massive stockpiles of rare and uncommon salvage as well as enhancements.  We tend to craft everything, even from junk sets, because we gamble with that stuff until it lands on something we can use.   Reward merit costs are something I am much more aware of than AH costs.

 

And there are merit-cheap sets like good old Multistrike that are worth slotting, having small but useful bonuses for both defense and resistance.  That's one of the mainstays of my heavy builds.  It also is much more balanced than some of the rare sets with shinier bonuses; it does a good job at enhancing the core function of a power than some others, which often shortchange accuracy. 

 

Another trick I have learned is to buy multiple Accuracy/Damage buttons from Kinetic Combat at twenty merits apiece, then roll three converter wagers on those until you draw a straight.  Unless you are a jinx, this will take far fewer merits than buying each piece outright.

 

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10 minutes ago, Heraclea said:

And there are merit-cheap sets like good old Multistrike that are worth slotting, having small but useful bonuses for both defense and resistance.  That's one of the mainstays of my heavy builds.  It also is much more balanced than some of the rare sets with shinier bonuses; it does a good job at enhancing the core function of a power than some others, which often shortchange accuracy. 

That's pretty bad advice for people who don't have a SG that shares everything in a common pool. Buying Multistrike with Merits you are quite literally paying 10-20x more than what they are worth in influence on the /ah. They go for 200-500k each when you could be making 4-5 million with your 20 merits. The only enhancements that are kind of OK to buy with merits are Winter Sets, anything else you are paying a sometimes significant surcharge on the merit vendor

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34 minutes ago, Seigmoraig said:

That's pretty bad advice for people who don't have a SG that shares everything in a common pool. Buying Multistrike with Merits you are quite literally paying 10-20x more than what they are worth in influence on the /ah. They go for 200-500k each when you could be making 4-5 million with your 20 merits. The only enhancements that are kind of OK to buy with merits are Winter Sets, anything else you are paying a sometimes significant surcharge on the merit vendor

AH avoidance is the key to my strategy for obtaining sets.  Still, I do often buy individual needed enhancements with my fire brute, who typically has more inf than most others.  But this is seldom, because I have a stock of Panaceas and similar valuable enhancements as well.  The chief problem is that most of them are level 50 when you want them at level 7, so that's the chief use of catalysts and unslotters. 

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10 minutes ago, Heraclea said:

AH avoidance is the key to my strategy for obtaining sets.  Still, I do often buy individual needed enhancements with my fire brute, who typically has more inf than most others.  But this is seldom, because I have a stock of Panaceas and similar valuable enhancements as well.  The chief problem is that most of them are level 50 when you want them at level 7, so that's the chief use of catalysts and unslotters. 

Still, even using catalysts to attune them, you are losing 1.5mill each time

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Im late to this discussion but if it helps...

 

Here is a Godmode Invul build -hybrid res/def

Infinitum - Tanker (Invulnerability - Super Strength).mxd

 

Here is a Godmode rad build - res

Radianite - Tanker (Radiation Armor - Radiation Melee).mxd

 

You have to try real hard to die with these.

 

Both are around 800 mil unless you use merits to buy the winter sets.

Edited by Infinitum
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