Weekly Discussion 56: Traps

[GM Miss]

Weekly discussion 56 - Week 6/21/20-6/27/20:

 

⚔️YOU VOTED: Let's talk about Traps!⚔️

 

❓Things to think about:

>Here is a link on Traps: https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Traps

>How does it compare to other support sets?

>What would you change?

>What do you love?

 

Don't just use these prompts, talk about whatever you want from this weeks prompt!

 

Let's Chat 😄

Edited June 21, 2020 by GM Miss

[ImpousVileTerror]

Ah!  My main villain's Secondary, and one of my favourite sets!

 

Trip Mine, Time Bomb, and (especially) Detonator need a good, hard looking at.

 

I know other people have complaints about the rest of the Set in various ways, but I'm overall pretty happy with the Tier 1 through Tier 6.  Seeker Drones are eh, but not terrible, and I'm willing to have them stay where they are if it means getting something more compelling in Tiers 8 and 9.

[Zepp]

This set is intriguing because it is one of the sets in most need of broad-band cooldown reduction, but it is also one of the few Support sets that doesn't "need" Hasten. On my Fender, I take all the powers save Web Grenade and Time Bomb (Web Grenade because it does no damage and I am really not impressed by immobilize (especially ST immobilize), and Time Bomb because it has an extremely long timer for a less-than-appealing ability (being frank, I likely wouldn't take it even if it were on a 90s timer)).

Traps is a great solo set, but has difficulty with high-level team play. One way to make it a tad better may be to reduce recharge and endurance cost on stationary powers. Seeker Drones could use a third seeker and/or recharge reduction. Triage Beacon might need to be mobilized.

I really enjoy the concept of the set and the ability to prepare and plan one's attack. On the other hand. It could definitely use some help speeding it up.

[Troo]

A solid set for a different play style. Unfortunately it is saddled with a set of technology focused animations and some long setup times that don't work well with fast moving teams.

 

This was a great set for when teams were pulling targets and it excels at hardened targets.

[ImpousVileTerror]

Ah, yes!  The theme, thanks for reminding me, Troo.

 

I believe it's been mentioned, but another potential theme for Traps, without having to create new 3D assets, is to use the Banished Pantheon masks for a magic-based Traps theme.  Alternatively, using the Legacy Chain runes.

Are there any other existing assets which folks would like to see used for Traps?

New stuff would be great too, but let's set our sights on targets which can be achieved with less pain first.

[Lost Deep]

Traps is enjoyable, I wish there was more options that could sell a technology/natural support set, but it does what it does pretty well. The biggest gripe I have is that in a group it's hard to make good use of it because most of it has long cast times and no range. For soloers, however, it's great. The caltrops, the shield drone, the ability to pull targets into an acid mortar. I could see an argument for recharge reduction (that'd help with the teaming, too, that or some kind of repositioning) but I don't personally feel it's needed. I have it on a corrupter and it gives me a lot of options for when just DPS isn't enough. Though, I admit I don't have experience with the upper part of the set yet.

[Greycat]

I've really wanted to like traps. And I normally do - at least solo. I mean, come on, doing Lady Grey's mission from Ramiel to unlock alpha - Waltz in, take several minutes to set up trip mines where the Rikti ambushes come in or where the portals spawn in the end room, *trigger* said ambushes/portals, watch them dissolve. Fun.

 

On a team... not so much. I might get one trip mine out before the spawn is being engaged, and they're usually dead before the animation finishes.

 

And time bomb... I placed one on live that I'm still waiting to have go off.

[tidge]

My comments are based on the Mastermind secondary.

 

1) I hate the Web Grenade T1. A T1 single-target immobilize it nigh useless at low levels and gains nothing via slotting or enhancements at higher levels. The little use it has is  -Fly, which besides being limited in applicability, is still single-target and still requires a ToHit check. Contrast with...

 

2) I love T2 Caltrops. An AoE Damage and Slow is useful right out-of-the-box, and it is improved via enhancement slotting, especially with IOs. I know that not everyone like Caltrops, but it has so many more pros than cons. Caltrops maintains utility across the entire game.

 

Please switch the order of these two powers in the secondary. I suppose they can also be swapped in the primary as well, for no net effect. I would still prefer them swapped even if Web Grenade was changed; e.g. if it were to be made a targeted AoE.

 

3) My MM has always skipped T8 Trip Mine and T9 Detonator after having tested them. Neither power feels like a 'nuke' to me, and I have found a high level of inconvenience with each power.

 

If I was going to suggest alternate powers from the existing game, I would seriously consider taking either the T8 and T9 if:

 

T8: The Omega Maneuver at level 32 (just like for Crab Spider Soldiers, even if it is a 'primary' choice for the VEAT)

T9: The Blaster Gun Drone from the secondary /Devices at level 38.

 

4) I am completely comfortable with the design and role of T3 Triage Beacon. I understand that some folks would prefer a direct Heal, but there has to be some variety in the game. The utility of this power improves greatly with larger spawn sizes.

 

5) I am perfectly happy with T4 Acid Mortar, T5 Force Field Generator, T6 Poison Trap and T7 Seeker Drones. I would like to be able to 'flood the map' with Seeker Drones, but that's just me wanting to have more pets buzzing around me.

[ImpousVileTerror]

Given that they're Traps, AND it's a Support Set (nominally), I do think that whatever happens to Trip Mine, Time Bomb, and Detonator should reflect that.

I understand that it's marketed as the most Offensive Support Set, but the straight-up Damage dealing Powers at the end just don't feel impactful.  

Perhaps it's time to straight-up cottage those, and replace them with -traps- of some sort.  

 

Something like an AoE Knockup field with a trigger, a la Poison Trap.  "Antigrav Mine" maybe?  Keep a little bit of the damage, but I'm fine with neutering Trip Mine's damage output in favour of supportive utility.

Maybe an "Electro Pulse Mine?"  Essentially EMP Arrow, but as a (again, because it rocks) Poison Trap-style drop?

"Spirit Bomb!"  My main villain would straight up murder people to get her hands on something like that!  Bonus damage to Spectral, Circle, Banished, and Mot critters.  Heavenly retribution!

"Explosive Decoy."   Summon a duplicate of your character model, with a Taunt aura and -Range Debuff.  Enemies flock to it and try to kill it, causing it to explode and deal damage!

 

There's a lot of potential fun to be had here.

[tidge]

10 minutes ago, ImpousVileTerror said:

Given that they're Traps, AND it's a Support Set (nominally), I do think that whatever happens to Trip Mine, Time Bomb, and Detonator should reflect that.

I understand that it's marketed as the most Offensive Support Set, but the straight-up Damage dealing Powers at the end just don't feel impactful.  

Perhaps it's time to straight-up cottage those, and replace them with -traps- of some sort.  

 

...

"Explosive Decoy."   Summon a duplicate of your character model, with a Taunt aura and -Range Debuff.  Enemies flock to it and try to kill it, causing it to explode and deal damage!

 

There's a lot of potential fun to be had here.

Se my comment about Omega Maneuver, which has a Taunt component to it.

 

My request for Gun Drone has an additional selfish component to it: Mastermind primaries without 'recharge intensive pets' could slot it with the defense/resist IO pieces, allowing for more options in the primary pets. Ideally I'd prefer the mastermind primary pet upgrade powers be altered to accept those IO pieces, but I'll take whatever I can get.

[ImpousVileTerror]

I too would like to slot more Pet Enhancements, so I'm in agreement on doing something there . . . but gun drone is a bit meh. 

 

Sapper Drone?

[tidge]

17 minutes ago, ImpousVileTerror said:

I too would like to slot more Pet Enhancements, so I'm in agreement on doing something there . . . but gun drone is a bit meh. 

 

Sapper Drone?

 

Unfortunately I don't think that sapping Endurance from enemy mobs would be all that effective in the grand scheme of things. My preference is to eek damage out of the T8/T9 choices, but a true Taunt is the next most obvious effect that comes to mind. If nothing else Taunting would slightly synergize with the other (offensive) traps in addition to providing some relief for the Defender/Corruptor/Mastermind... I just don't think that taunting alone would necessarily be worthy of a T8 or T9.

 

I suppose if we were too look for something besides a Gun drone, there are the Support pets from Lore Incarnate powers.

 

[MTeague]

3 hours ago, GM Miss said:

>What would you change?

I would change Triage Beacon, to be Triage DRONE, and have it follow you. 

Other than that, I would not change anything.

Edited June 21, 2020 by MTeague

[Black Zot]

For starters, fix Force Field Generator's speed, AI, and pathing so it actually keeps pace with the summoner.  Having to recast it every spawn (and come up with the +recharge to do so) in order for it to do anything at all makes its alleged benefits a joke.  People love to claim the FFG does all these cool things, but talking about the bonuses a buff bubble offers is a waste of breath when the bubble in question is stuck on a loose floor tile 3 rooms back.

 

That's kind of the issue with the set in general; unless you've got a ton of global +recharge, you're using 1, maybe 2 powers per spawn and then it's down to your other powerset to do anything useful.

Edited June 21, 2020 by Black Zot

[Sakura Tenshi]

I confess I have little experience with traps, but if I had to make some changes:

1. Make Triage Beacon into a Triage drone that fires out HoT beams (probably just a PBAoE that has a green beam graphic connected to all 'hit' targets)
2. make it so that all traps you drop down can instead be 'thrown out' as locational AoEs up to maybe up to about fifty feet so you still have to be somewhat near it but you can use them a bit more offensively.
3. Time Bomb is changed into a deployable turret which spams chaingun, chaingun burst, and a cone chaingun attack for it's  duration (maybe 60 seconds tops?) and when it is destroyed or it's duration expires, it blows up dealing damage to foes around it and allowing people who use time bomb to keep whatever IO sets they current slot

Along with changes like mentioned by Zot of fixing Drone pathing AI.

 

Oh, another thing I would do is change Web Grenade into an "Adhesion grenade", basically working a bit like blind from Illusion control. The primary target his hit with an immobilize, while targets around the primary one are hit with the -recharge and -movement debuffs.

Edited June 21, 2020 by Sakura Tenshi

[drbuzzard]

Have a lvl 50 traps defender. The set certainly has its good and bad sides. 

 

I'll go by power:

Web grenade- pretty much worthless. I suppose I'd consider it good on a defender because you can skip it and pick a useful pool power. On a secondary I pity people. Not sure what I'd do to fix it. Maybe make it AOE, adding damage isn't worthwhile since every AT that has access gets a low damage scalar anyway. 

 

Caltrop- top notch power. Don't really see a need to change it. 

 

Triage beacon- good enough solo or on a low level team. Once teams are actually powerful, it pretty much sits until you fight an AV or something which will be in one place for a while. Otherwise it does squat before the team moves on. The idea of letting it follow isn't bad. 

 

Acid mortar- great power, but suffers from the general set issue of limited use if a team is moving fast. Then again a lot of the debuff sets suffer from that. The fact that you can focus on recharge and have 2 out at once is quite nice. 

 

FF generator- I'll echo the above comment about it being too slow and dumb. However when it works it is nice. 

 

Poison trap- solid power (other than the fast team thing, but just assume that in general)

 

Seeker drones- Lots of people love this. I'm a bit more meh on it, but I do take it and use it. Not sure what I'd suggest, maybe up the speed some. 

 

Trip mines- a wonderful solo power, pretty iffy on teams. Nobody particularly wants to wait for you to set up an ambush. However if they did, it can be really deadly. This is actually quite nice on BAFs for the prisoner escape phase (or covering Nightshade's body when you fight Seige). 

 

Time bomb - worthless crap. Took it way back on live, and respecced the hell out of it. Even the suggestion of giving it the Omega Maneuver treatment won't help because OM is crap also. I suppose some of the gun drone suggestions aren't bad. Again a power with the upside of no loss in skipping. 

 

Traps isn't generally appreciated, but people in the know understand how well it debuffs on hard targets. 

 

[Strawberry]

Web Grenade: With the exception of a low level /Traps Controller proccing containment, I'd be hard pressed to find any kind of use of the power. That being said, it's a Tier 1 power and not every single power in the set has to be gold. You could potentially throw one small debuff on it like -acc -res etc...

Caltrops: One of my personal favorite powers in the set. The fear it causes doesn't really scatter much because they are already slowed, so it adds some nice soft control. Damage is gravy and can take some decent procs.

 

Triage Beacon: Others have recommended changing Triage Beacon into a Drone that follows the user. If this were the case, then I think it would be fine as is, but if it were to remain stationary, maybe give it some additional benefit like a small+res for all in the field.
 

Acid Mortar: Suffers on fast moving teams, but I don't think that's a problem with the power itself. When you get the proper use out of it, it's a strong power. No change needed.

Force Field Generator: Want to echo the statement of others that the Pet AI needs to follow at a faster pace and it could use a speed increase overall. This is actually a major issue with the set on one of the set's best powers.

Poison Trap: Possibly a weird request, but I personally hate how this shares a name with Poison Trap from Poison and yet the powers are completely different. Would a name change be in order? One of the set's better powers.

 

Seeker Drones: I think it's overrated personally, but I fully acknowledge that could just be me. I hear lots of praise for it.

 

Trip Mine: Can set up some cheese if you are willing to spend a lot of time doing it. Would be nice to have a replacement, but if it were this or Time Bomb that had to go (not both), then I would keep this and replace Time Bomb. Again, not every power needs to be gold. I think keeping this for a power some may skip would be fine.

Time Bomb: Seems like so much fun and has so much potential especially on Masterminds who blow up their pets, but it is so worthless. Unfortunately, I do think that if this power were too good, it could be a problem. Instead of adjusting values, I would replace it. I don't know if I like the idea of the Gun Drone that was suggested, but I also don't know what else I would replace it with. *shrugs*

[Primantis]

I really enjoy Traps! But there's certainly a few aspects about the power set that just don't mesh well with today's teams.. That being it's a very "Campy" power set. By campy I mean, you literally set up a camp. While teams are extremely mobile!

 

Here's some random idea's I've thought of during my time playing my various Traps Defenders.

 

T8/T9 are obvious candidates for adjustment. If we must stick to the cottage rule than I'd like the idea of making Time Bomb work like Omega Maneuver. I think Trip Mine would be pretty serviceable if the animation time were halved and the interrupt was removed. Even if that meant upping the recharge on the power.

 

 

Now in order to mitigate the fact that so much of the set is stationary, on longish cooldowns. I would like to suggest one of the following;

 

• Triage Beacon and/or Acid Mortar be mobile. Following the player until they expire. Would be preferable if they could clip through enemies and allies though, as that would lead to some congestion with FFG. (Especially on MMs)

Or

• The ability to "recall" your Traps. Essentially coded as Team Teleport but it only selects your Traps and places them where you aim the reticle. This could potentially replace the T9. Especially if it did something else on the side.  Make Trip Mines immune to the Teleport if you're too worried about people cheesing in 20 mines on top of an AV.

 

[Primantis]

2 hours ago, Strawberry said:

Poison Trap: Possibly a weird request, but I personally hate how this shares a name with Poison Trap from Poison and yet the powers are completely different. Would a name change be in order? One of the set's better powers.

 

 

 

I could have sworn at some point one of them was called "Poison Gas Trap".. I even remember using the acronym "PGT" for it..

Must be Mandella Effect or something!

[Peacemoon]

It would be great if traps could somehow be made more mobile friendly where possible. 
Triage Beacon in particular. 
 

Perhaps if you could move it around a bit like how you can move that cage power around in electric affinity. 
 

I think it’s part of traps thing that it’s great to set up a kill area and then annihilate enemies with loads of traps. But maybe mitigating some of that to help with mobile teams (which to be fair is most team situations) then that would be great.

[Peacemoon]

Also Gadget Control/Traps would be great place for a Controller build 🙃

[Chance Jackson]

A lot of people hating on Web Grenade but I think it is actually quite useful just for locking down a hard target before toe bombing them with Poison Trap otherwise you run the risk of an EB, AV, Monsterc Etc moving before Poison trap is triggered wasting a power that's both highly effective & on a long recharge while said hard target is free to PWN your Henchmen

 

I wouldn't be opposed to Web Grenade becoming an Aoe or gaining Aoe debuffs but it's main function of immobilization should not be infringed

 

4 hours ago, Primantis said:

 

I could have sworn at some point one of them was called "Poison Gas Trap".. I even remember using the acronym "PGT" for it..

Must be Mandella Effect or something!

Isn't that the power in the "Poisons" Support set? or Am i confusing which set uses that name?

Edited June 22, 2020 by Chance Jackson

[drbuzzard2]

Actually I thought of something which might work to make tripmines a bit better. Make it so you can toss them a short distance to place them instead of having to do it at your feet. I don't mean a lot of range, but 10' or 15'. Mines can currently be air deployed, and then command armed, so I don't see this being a huge stretch. This would require  a different animation of course (though there's no shortage of things being tossed animations in the game).

[tidge]

11 minutes ago, Chance Jackson said:

A lot of people hating on Web Grenade but I think it is actually quite useful just for locking down a hard target before toe bombing them with Poison Trap otherwise you run the risk of an EB, AV, Monsterc Etc moving before Poison trap is triggered wasting a power that's both highly effective & on a long recharge while said hard target is free to PWN your Henchmen

This is an extreme corner case that I don't think supports the argument as made. The Purple Triangles are already making most of the "Hard Targets" mentioned very difficult to Immobilize. Poison Trap already accepts Hold slotting. I can't imagine investing slots in Web Grenade to try to improve performance in the scenario described.

 

I was trying to think of a time when -Fly actually brings reliable value. The only scenario I can recall are the TF/SF involving Colonel Duray as he will go zipping all over the place... especially in the Silver Mantis Strike Force where he can fly into other Sky Raiders. I have been annoyed by CoT ghosts who fly off, but they will eventually come back.

 

[Peacemoon]

5 minutes ago, tidge said:

This is an extreme corner case that I don't think supports the argument as made. The Purple Triangles are already making most of the "Hard Targets" mentioned very difficult to Immobilize. Poison Trap already accepts Hold slotting. I can't imagine investing slots in Web Grenade to try to improve performance in the scenario described.

 

I was trying to think of a time when -Fly actually brings reliable value. The only scenario I can recall are the TF/SF involving Colonel Duray as he will go zipping all over the place... especially in the Silver Mantis Strike Force where he can fly into other Sky Raiders. I have been annoyed by CoT ghosts who fly off, but they will eventually come back.

 

Purple triangles don’t protect AVs against immobilise, if that’s what you’re implying? 
 

I think if there were any changes to sticky web grenades, the most likely would be some additional debuff on the effect. I think Arachnos also have a web grenade that holds?