Weekly Discussion 59: Veteran Level Rewards

[Bill Z Bubba]

And for those calling for vet rewards nerfs on others, let's not forget that the HC team have already supplied us with two massive nerfs. One that cut base XP in half in AE and another that removed double inf when XP is disabled. When is it going to be enough for yall? Not until AE is removed from the game?

 

By the by, alt door sitter hit lvl 30 in just under an hour farming DA repeatables. This includes travel time so my 2 hour to 38 may be overestimated by a bit. I'll finish that up later. Stuff to do. Should we get rid of the DA repeatables as well? Nerf level shifts? Nerf the incarnate powers themselves? Hell, at this point, the sidekick system itself seems awfully suspect!

Mission 1 +3/x8 oops
1-14 7:23
Mission 2 +4/x8
14-18 15:52
Mission 3 +4/x8
18-22 28:06
Mission 4 +4/x8
22-25 35:14
Mission 5 +4/x8
25-28 44:41
Mission 6 +4/x8
28-30 57:22

 

LATE EDIT: Yup, right at 2 hours to PL an alt in DA at max diff to 38 vs 45 mins in AE.

Edited July 15, 2020 by Bill Z Bubba

[Apparition]

22 hours ago, roleki said:

This is all just a fancy-ass game of Rock-Paper-Scissors, except unlike real RPS, 99.99999 percent of the time you're told in advance what the opponent is throwing; there's no 'difficulty' involved unless YOU make it so. 

 

Luckily, there are plenty of existing in-game mechanisms that a so-motivated individual could pursue if they wanted to up the 'difficulty' - they could not slot powers, or underslot them, donate all their inf to strangers, roll a petless mastermind, attempt 50+++ content on a league team led by a 38 or so, run an instanced MSR with 12 random people... really, any number of things.

 

I don't think fiddling with XP/reward drops or any of that is going to make the game more difficult, just less interesting for people who understand it will never be difficult.

I have already done a lot of that.  Tanked a five person Hamidon raid on a Brute with no temporary powers used.  Done a Lord Recluse Strike Force with no enhancements, enemies buffed, and players debuffed.  Led a six person instanced MSR successfully with five random people.  Donate a minimum of 200 million INF per week.  None of that changes perception.  And the perception, by many people, is that Incarnate abilities (outside of Alpha), are too powerful in non-Incarnate content.  The Incarnate threads and Empyrean merits from veteran levels greatly exasperates this.

 

So the two solutions are to either make a lot more Incarnate only content (which is extremely unlikely), or remove the Incarnate threads and Empyrean merits from veteran levels to substantially slow down Incarnate progression.

 

But as I said, I don’t expect it to happen.  I just thought that I would bring it up while discussing veteran levels.

Edited July 15, 2020 by Apparition

[dopeninja]

On 7/13/2020 at 1:49 PM, Six Six said:

I used to play this came called Torchlight and they had a mechanic for higher level content that didn't involve new content. Once you reach the end of the game (level 50) you have a choice to start from level 1 (story-wise), while keeping all of your earned/unlocked powers. So effectively, you'll be 50, the mobs in turn would be 50+1 (CoH's mechanic gives you a choice to make it 50+4, with a x8 mob spawn). As you progress through the levels, you stay 50, but mobs progress normally... so by the time your reach Talos, you'll still be 50 with all your bells and whistles, but your enemies will be at 80, and in PI, they'll be level 100 -- twice your level and exponentially stronger/more durable. Let's see how OP they feel then.

I have no idea how easy or hard this would be to code, but I think it solves two things: giving people the harder content for vet levels, and giving the people who rushed to 50 to experience low-level content of Atlas, KR, Mercy, etc. (which is good content)... and maybe it would encourage them to run it as new powerless toons.

I would like to see this scaling mechanic overall. Never out level a contact and the mobs just scale. Probably some issues with some mob types like Skullz, no lv50 variants of them.

[roleki]

11 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

And for those calling for vet rewards nerfs on others, let's not forget that the HC team have already supplied us with two massive nerfs. One that cut base XP in half in AE and another that removed double inf when XP is disabled. When is it going to be enough for yall? Not until AE is removed from the game?

 

By the by, alt door sitter hit lvl 30 in just under an hour farming DA repeatables. This includes travel time so my 2 hour to 38 may be overestimated by a bit. I'll finish that up later. Stuff to do. Should we get rid of the DA repeatables as well? Nerf level shifts? Nerf the incarnate powers themselves? Hell, at this point, the sidekick system itself seems awfully suspect!

Mission 1 +3/x8 oops
1-14 7:23
Mission 2 +4/x8
14-18 15:52
Mission 3 +4/x8
18-22 28:06
Mission 4 +4/x8
22-25 35:14
Mission 5 +4/x8
25-28 44:41
Mission 6 +4/x8
28-30 57:22

 

Personally, I think the Vet Rewards are just fine as they are, but I am the type that has 35 mains and 3 alts.  I can see where people who concentrate on one character would, I dunno, look around and be displeased that someone at VL9 has almost the same power level as their VL9000 or whatever character.  I'm not one to tell people how to have fun, but I would hope their best suggestion isn't "make it less fun for other people." Unfortunately, and as you pointed out, everyone with eyeballs that can produce tears have already employed them to get AE nerfed, and sure as I am sitting here, it will be nerfed again and so will any other target of the chronic "I should be having more fun than them because *I* actually earned it" crowd.

 

Sooo...

 

How about this?  Keep Vet Rewards as-is, where Threads and Merits are trotted out 1-99, but for 100 and every 3 levels after, give people some kind of veteran merit that they can cash in for, I don't know, permanent, stacakable buffs of some sort? Reduction in ED on that character by X%?  I dunno, I have a hard time figuring out what people WANT other than to assure they are enjoying things more than me.

[Xanatos]

6 hours ago, Veracor said:

[...]My 2700 vet levels are simply an amusing side effect of running so much content for people as regularly as I can manage, and are the closest thing to a metric I have for how long I have been at this.

 

[...] I do not enjoy the thought of their integrity (or any other feature in this game) being lost to such practices.[...]

 

Vet levels don't have integrity. They're basically just a "how long have you played this character at 50" measuring stick.

 

6 hours ago, Veracor said:

The positive firefarmers I know wouldn't mind changes being made, and often advocate for them when the topic is discussed in league or discord.

 

I am a positive fire farmer.  I know plenty of other positive fire farmers. None of us would support vet level nerfs.

[QuiJon]

3 hours ago, Lockpick said:

To prevent AFK farmers from receiving vet rewards.  If some of the reward suggestions I and others have offered for vet levels are implemented it would be wise to make sure those rewards are earned through game play and not exploits.

Wow you need a ladder to get on that high horse or does your inflated ego just float you up there?

 

Why should anyone NOT gain xp and levels just like anyone else because of how they choose to play? I mean seriously at what point do we call doing a TF or "farming" experience? When you have done it 100 times, 1k? Or what if you just do that same TF 10 times to work through a level 30-40 level range and then move onto the next TF and farm that 10 times to do 40-49 etc. 

 

Techopedia defines game farming as :

"Farming refers to a gaming tactic where a player, or someone hired by a player, performs repetitive actions to gain experience points or some form of in-game currency."

 

So that is right, when you start to repeat any action in a game for which you are going to gain a reward for it you are farming. So how about suggest changes that benefit  you all you want, but punishing other peoples play preference seems kind of petty and egotistical. Once you have experienced content you know the story and lore. The only reason to go back to play it again is because you liked it, in which case vet levels mean nothing to you and so then why does it matter if a AE farmer earns them just as you do cause they are inconsequential to your desire to repeat the action, or you repeat the action because it is what you want to do to earn that vet level, influence, IO drops etc. In which case you are farming that action for a reward since you have already completed it once. So essentially you are saying punish THOSE farmers because I choose to farm less productively then them. 

 

[arcane]

Also, the only way, logically, that afk farming is an “exploit” is if one of the three following things are an exploit (and I don’t believe any of the below has been confirmed as an exploit by the GM’s):

 

1) passive damage auras

2) defenses adequate enough that a player’s regen rate is adequate for survival

3) roaming mobs

 

EDIT: I suppose you could also include auto-attacking and the power Burn amongst these. Either way, Lockpick, can you please identify the exploit you would like nerfed from these items?

Edited July 15, 2020 by arcaneholocaust

[Saikochoro]

6 hours ago, Lockpick said:

To prevent AFK farmers from receiving vet rewards.  If some of the reward suggestions I and others have offered for vet levels are implemented it would be wise to make sure those rewards are earned through game play and not exploits.

Once again you can’t harm legitimate players to get to the abusers. That is basically saying to hell with you and your play style.  People are so quick to lump farmers into a basket and let anything happen to them because they think it a lesser way of playing. 
 

There is absolutely no good reason to harm active farmers that use AE. They are not exploiting. They are not hacking. They are using in game features.
 

I think it’s great that Veracor has helped run many raids and whatnot, but that doesn’t justify harming a different play style. As for saying positive farmers wouldn’t mind nerfs, I say some might not but others would. I actively participate in raids, trials, and TFs and listen to league leaders with complete compliance. I don’t afk farm and I shouldn’t be punished because other people do. 

Edited July 15, 2020 by Saikochoro

[Saikochoro]

The whole argument that farming AE shouldn’t get veteran rewards or levels is a bone starter. At it’s core, it is rooted in the opinion that farming is not a valid way of playing the game and thus is not deserving of rewards. One way of playing the game is not more valid than another.  There really isn’t anything more to it than that. 
 

Edit: my phone autocorrected “veteran” into “better” for some reason.  Edited to correct. 

Edited July 15, 2020 by Saikochoro

[Coyotedancer]

I wasn't going to respond to Ver's "farmers don't listen or know how to play the game and they all try to multi-box to be poopyheads" comment... but I sort of feel like I need to. I've played in some of those Hami and ship raids he's run, on my main account's Ornabegan characters... Kai, Semnai, Xhel and the rest... And, at least as far as I know, he's never had an issue with me on any of them.

 

I've been at this game long enough to know how those raids work, and I know how to play the things I build. I've never done one with both accounts running.

 

And yet... I sort of feel like if the guy had KNOWN at the time that I have a second account, and a dedicated fire farmer, and that I easily spend as much time playing with Harry as I do playing with any of my other characters, I'd have ended up being lumped in with the would-be troublemakers. Just Because. And that's annoying. <_<

[Coyotedancer]

2 hours ago, Apparition said:

I have already done a lot of that.  Tanked a five person Hamidon raid on a Brute with no temporary powers used.  Done a Lord Recluse Strike Force with no enhancements, enemies buffed, and players debuffed.  Led a six person instanced MSR successfully with five random people.  Donate a minimum of 200 million INF per week.  None of that changes perception.  And the perception, by many people, is that Incarnate abilities (outside of Alpha), are too powerful in non-Incarnate content.  The Incarnate threads and Empyrean merits from veteran levels greatly exasperates this.

 

So the two solutions are to either make a lot more Incarnate only content (which is extremely unlikely), or remove the Incarnate threads and Empyrean merits from veteran levels to substantially slow down Incarnate progression.

 

But as I said, I don’t expect it to happen.  I just thought that I would bring it up while discussing veteran levels.

 

Hmm... While making the progression more of a grind would slow down the addition of NEW Incarnate characters, I don't think it would actually solve the problem. If you're having trouble with content being too easy with the number of Incarnates around today, that isn't going to change by shutting off progression tomorrow. All of those Incarnates who are spoiling your fun now? They'll STILL be out there, with all their iToys, nuking your missions from orbit.

 

No. The only way to "fix" the problem by making sure there are less Incarnate characters would take something a lot more radical than slowing progression at this point, You'd have to go in and retroactively remove the Incarnate powers that all of the already-existing, already-Incarnated 50's have, and then make everyone start over using the slower advancement scheme.

 

I suspect there wouldn't be enough torches and pitchforks in the world to cover people's reactions to that... 🤣 

[Bill Z Bubba]

3 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

No. The only way to "fix" the problem by making sure there are less Incarnate characters would take something a lot more radical than slowing progression at this point, You'd have to go in and retroactively remove the Incarnate powers that all of the already-existing, already-Incarnated 50's have, and then make everyone start over using the slower advancement scheme.

 

I suspect there wouldn't be enough torches and pitchforks in the world to cover people's reactions to that... 🤣 

Or just nerf the hell out of the existing values applied to said incarnate powers.

Considering that people are now planning builds around the lowest values of powers like barrier, you're of course correct in that the gnashing of teeth and thread after thread of rage will no doubt be rather epic.

[Coyotedancer]

40 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Or just nerf the hell out of the existing values applied to said incarnate powers.

Considering that people are now planning builds around the lowest values of powers like barrier, you're of course correct in that the gnashing of teeth and thread after thread of rage will no doubt be rather epic.

Nerfing Incarnates is a whole different pile of pitchforks... I was just thinking about Apparition's idea of addressing the "too easy!"-thing by making Incanrnates less common.

[Lockpick]

What is the problem we are trying to solve in this thread?  My take is that vet level rewards end at 99 and people like to be rewarded, thus there is a need for rewards beyond 99.  Incarnate powers will likely be at tier 4 by 99, so continuing with thread and EPs is no real incentive to progress beyond 99. 

 

I like to see characters with high vet levels because to me it shows dedication to a character.  When I see someone with high vet levels I am amazed to see numbers in the hundreds, much less thousands, and many of these characters become known on their server because to earn those vet levels they have been playing the game in a visible manner.  People like Veracor or Boy Band become known and appreciated, which leads to a sense of community.  In one way, this recognition is its own reward.

 

More people would likely progress further down the vet level path if there were rewards for doing so, which I think would expand that sense of community.  I consider expanding the sense of community a good thing.  The reason why I don't progress very far is I get T4 and want to try new power sets.  That is why I tied my vet level suggestions to providing rewards and allowing character branching.  I know these incentives would have me continue down the long term vet level path.

 

Anyway, enough rambling...

 

[ImpousVileTerror]

I don't really think there's a -need- to reward people playing just one character.  I'm of a differing opinion than plenty of folks, and when I see someone with an excessively high Veteran Level I generally see them as someone with a lot of time on their hands, and nothing much else.  Maybe a lack of characters, but that's not a guarantee.  One could theoretically have hundreds of characters and still thousands of Veteran Levels.

In any event; in-game rewards exist as carrots on the sticks.  Do the Devs feel that they need to be incentivizing people to keep playing the same character ad nauseum?  

[Veracor]

2 hours ago, Coyotedancer said:

I wasn't going to respond to Ver's "farmers don't listen or know how to play the game and they all try to multi-box to be poopyheads" comment... but I sort of feel like I need to. I've played in some of those Hami and ship raids he's run, on my main account's Ornabegan characters... Kai, Semnai, Xhel and the rest... And, at least as far as I know, he's never had an issue with me on any of them.

 

I've been at this game long enough to know how those raids work, and I know how to play the things I build. I've never done one with both accounts running.

 

And yet... I sort of feel like if the guy had KNOWN at the time that I have a second account, and a dedicated fire farmer, and that I easily spend as much time playing with Harry as I do playing with any of my other characters, I'd have ended up being lumped in with the would-be troublemakers. Just Because. And that's annoying. <_<

 

I did say the majority of firefarmers that join my raids -- the positive firefarmers are open to ideas and discussions and follow instructions well, and I have no problems with them.  It does raise an interesting observation, though, that there almost never seems to be anything inbetween: a firefarmer in league content is either completely fine and a helpful contributor, or a toxic and willful problem.  In my experience it seems the problem-causers make up the majority, but I don't AE farm myself to confirm it.  Keep in mind that when it comes to Hami raids, I handle problems privately as often as I can to avoid the rest of the league from piling onto the person, so multibox leechers being identified, politely reminded of the Code of Conduct and told to leave on their excess accounts, refusing to leave and hurling slurs and threats at me, and me getting a GM to remove them are all things not done in broadcast or league chats.  The majority of multibox leechers in the Hive are firefarm accounts, and one guy once stupidly brought 13 bot accounts (!) to leech in a raid (that guy's accounts all mysteriously stopped logging in shortly after).  One of the reasons why Chiasa gets so many hateful and vile responses as control targetter is because she is proactive with identifying leechers and they usually tell her to F off when she sends them an early tell asking about it.  Some days it can be very discouraging (especially when there's no on-duty GMs), but the community we have created is worth fighting for and I refuse to give ground to anyone that willfully harms it.

 

At any rate, this was just an explanation for why I personally have a negative opinion of AE farming in general.  It is just my opinion and could be changed -- I used to think AFK farming was a strict detriment to the economy as well, but I was shown evidence to the contrary and now think it has a neutral impact.  Regardless, I do think my point of losing a feature of the game (however pointless) to ToS-breaking bot farms is valid.  If the solution to the double inf thing was a little more comprehensive than just flat-out disabling it all, we could have the damage from this behavior prevented at a mechanical level without harming legitimate farmers.

 

As for your fear of being lumped in with the problem people, it wouldn't happen: we don't look for AT/powerset, we look at follow behavior, skill activation chains, and positioning, and we do account for people periodically AFKing due to real life issues or stopping to scroll up to review instructions.  If the person's behavior is indicative of multibox leeching with another account (such as never having simultaneous non-follow movement throughout the whole raid), we give it a few rounds to confirm it before messaging them directly.  We really take the time to identify detractors before raising an issue with the person, because a coincidental false positive would be really bad.

[roleki]

55 minutes ago, ImpousVileTerror said:

I don't really think there's a -need- to reward people playing just one character.  I'm of a differing opinion than plenty of folks, and when I see someone with an excessively high Veteran Level I generally see them as someone with a lot of time on their hands, and nothing much else.  Maybe a lack of characters, but that's not a guarantee.  One could theoretically have hundreds of characters and still thousands of Veteran Levels.

In any event; in-game rewards exist as carrots on the sticks.  Do the Devs feel that they need to be incentivizing people to keep playing the same character ad nauseum?  

I get what you're saying, but what constitutes an "excessively high" VL to you and me might be minuscule to someone else, and just right to yet someone else.  It would seem (to me) that, given there are numerous characters in excess of 200 or 300 or even 400 VLs (and I think there's a 2500+ somewhere?) that there are people who will plow forward whether they are getting shiny things or not.  

 

Seems to me there's nothing wrong with Veteran Level Rewards as they are doled out now, it's just that some people have misconstrued them as the gateway to Playing The Wrong Way.

[Coyotedancer]

For what it's worth, Ver, while I've run Semnai with you on various things (She's my "general purpose" Broadsword brute; that tall, dark lady all in black carrying the bright red thorn blade-), Harry never has. He's purpose-built for fire farming and lives his life on those maps. The only /Fire characters I've taken on anything of yours were my two "unicorns" (Red Traveller and Ferrian, both Stalkers. So, I doubt they raised any eyebrows regardless. 😁 )

 

My concern is just one of ending up in a "Oh. That's 'Dancer. She's one of those icky farmers. Obviously she's going to be up to no good." situation, no matter who I was on or what AT they happened to be.

 

 

Edited July 15, 2020 by Coyotedancer

[Saikochoro]

I was thinking of possible further rewards past vet level 99. I don’t like the idea of adding enhancement slots or permanent buffs. 
 

However, one thing I think would be nice is adding inspiration tray slots. I may not be completely knowledgeable about the game, but I’m not aware of a way to increase past the cap of 20. Of course you can always keep a mailbox full of them, so it’s not like it would have a huge impact, but it would be nice quality of life bonus for high vet level characters. 
 

It could be a slot every 20 levels with the first one being awarded at vet level 120. This would equate to 5 slots per 100 levels up to a new cap. Or something along those lines. 

[Coyotedancer]

2 minutes ago, Saikochoro said:

I was thinking of possible further rewards past vet level 99. I don’t like the idea of adding enhancement slots or permanent buffs. 
 

However, one thing I think would be nice is adding inspiration tray slots. I may not be completely knowledgeable about the game, but I’m not aware of a way to increase past the cap of 20. Of course you can always keep a mailbox full of them, so it’s not like it would have a huge impact, but it would be nice quality of life bonus for high vet level characters. 
 

It could be a slot every 20 levels with the first one being awarded at vet level 120. This would equate to 5 slots per 100 levels up to a new cap. Or something along those lines. 

This idea? This idea I love. 

MOAR candy! XD

[Xanatos]

14 minutes ago, Veracor said:

 

I did say the majority of firefarmers that join my raids -- the positive firefarmers are open to ideas and discussions and follow instructions well, and I have no problems with them.  It does raise an interesting observation, though, that there almost never seems to be anything inbetween: a firefarmer in league content is either completely fine and a helpful contributor, or a toxic and willful problem.  In my experience it seems the problem-causers make up the majority, but I don't AE farm myself to confirm it.  Keep in mind that when it comes to Hami raids, I handle problems privately as often as I can to avoid the rest of the league from piling onto the person, so multibox leechers being identified, politely reminded of the Code of Conduct and told to leave on their excess accounts, refusing to leave and hurling slurs and threats at me, and me getting a GM to remove them are all things not done in broadcast or league chats.  The majority of multibox leechers in the Hive are firefarm accounts, and one guy once stupidly brought 13 bot accounts (!) to leech in a raid (that guy's accounts all mysteriously stopped logging in shortly after).  One of the reasons why Chiasa gets so many hateful and vile responses as control targetter is because she is proactive with identifying leechers and they usually tell her to F off when she sends them an early tell asking about it.  Some days it can be very discouraging (especially when there's no on-duty GMs), but the community we have created is worth fighting for and I refuse to give ground to anyone that willfully harms it.

 

At any rate, this was just an explanation for why I personally have a negative opinion of AE farming in general.  It is just my opinion and could be changed -- I used to think AFK farming was a strict detriment to the economy as well, but I was shown evidence to the contrary and now think it has a neutral impact.  Regardless, I do think my point of losing a feature of the game (however pointless) to ToS-breaking bot farms is valid.  If the solution to the double inf thing was a little more comprehensive than just flat-out disabling it all, we could have the damage from this behavior prevented at a mechanical level without harming legitimate farmers.

 

As for your fear of being lumped in with the problem people, it wouldn't happen: we don't look for AT/powerset, we look at follow behavior, skill activation chains, and positioning, and we do account for people periodically AFKing due to real life issues or stopping to scroll up to review instructions.  If the person's behavior is indicative of multibox leeching with another account (such as never having simultaneous non-follow movement throughout the whole raid), we give it a few rounds to confirm it before messaging them directly.  We really take the time to identify detractors before raising an issue with the person, because a coincidental false positive would be really bad.

 

Nobody fire farms in a hami raid. So, I have no idea why you're calling these people "firefarmers". Seems like your own prejudices are biasing how you categorise people, and making you treat two sets of activities as one set of people.

 

Besides,  AFKing in a hami raid is not the same as AFKing in an AE farm. The former negatively impacts other players. The latter does not.

[laudwic]

Personally, leave it how it is. 

 

If you extend rewards further, then there are going to be more requests to extend it further.  For example, it appears from looking at paragon wiki that there were going to be categories of incarnate powers beyond Hybrid.  (Genesis, Mind, Vitae and Omega - yes Incarnates would go from Alpha to Omega - I have no idea what the design idea was for these.)  I'm surprised there isn't a call for those to be built and expanded as they seem to fit the idea of veterans rewards.  Problem is a ton of content would need to be developed to go with it, more missions, enemies, and trials.  That isn't even counting the work necessary to add the additional abilities and balance them.  In my mind, this would be far too much work to hope for or expect from the volunteer group that is so incredibly kind to keep this game going for us.

 

If someone is playing so many levels above 50, then they are having fun doing what they are doing and they don't need more.  

 

I would expect that the high post 50 portion is probably a small but rabid portion of the player base that is not going to leave if there is not more post 50 content.

 

So, I don't see a need to create rewards past 50 any more than they already exist.

 

Personally, I would rather see effort go into other areas.  I love the Sentinel add.  Savage Melee on my Dominator has been great!  I would like to see more Archtypes and powersets.  I am enjoying the week long July events.  My computer couldn't handle monstermash but I was happy you all did it.  

 

As for the whole farming discussion, I don't do it but if someone else wants to do that it doesn't hurt me.  I like exploring my power set.  At times I wish I level quicker, other times I shut down xp, there are ways I can deal with both.  If you want to get to 50 in AE while never leaving Atlas in a far shorter time than it takes me to get a toon to 50, good for you if it makes you happy.  I enjoy how I play, and while it is slower, I'm fine with it. 

 

It is on each person to decide how they want to play with the exception of non-consensual AFK.  If you join a team or league, if they don't agree for you to be AFK and not contribute, then you shouldn't be there getting benefits without contributing.

 

<edit to add comment about AFK> 

Edited July 16, 2020 by laudwic
I think non consensual AFK is wrong. If you join, you are expected to contribute to the best of your ability. If you just AFK, to soak up xp for doing nothing when everyone doesn't expressly agree to that, its just wrong.

[gameboy1234]

On 7/14/2020 at 5:33 PM, kiramon said:

Vet level 35 seems early, but I definitely had all at t4 in the 90s (which is where I was when the exp off fix was implemented).

My Fort is currently vet level 20, and has all six incarnate abilities slotted, all the way through Hybrid.  I only have them slotted with level 2 abilities, not all the way with the top tier level 4 incarnate abilities, but if we're just talking vet levels vs getting the slots, that's all it took for me.

 

Personally I think this is way too fast.  It happened basically by accident, just doing some ITFs to get inf for IO Sets.  I did some random content like that, didn't even run most of the incarnate TFs, didn't do any DA missions, and bam 100% unlocked.  The rate of gain for XP for incarnate abilities is way out of whack with regard to say Inf for buying IOs.   In my case (as I mentioned) I promptly lost interest at that point.  Lower level content is more interesting (and challenging) to me.

 

[Bill Z Bubba]

Just now, gameboy1234 said:

My Fort is currently vet level 20, and has all six incarnate abilities slotted, all the way through Hybrid.  I only have them slotted with level 2 abilities, not all the way with the top tier level 4 incarnate abilities, but if we're just talking vet levels vs getting the slots, that's all it took for me.

 

Personally I think this is way too fast.  It happened basically by accident, just doing some ITFs to get inf for IO Sets.  I did some random content like that, didn't even run most of the incarnate TFs, didn't do any DA missions, and bam 100% unlocked.  The rate of gain for XP for incarnate abilities is way out of whack with regard to say Inf for buying IOs.   In my case (as I mentioned) I promptly lost interest at that point.  Lower level content is more interesting (and challenging) to me.

 

Great. Compound that by 70 alts that need to be T4ed. None are done til that happens.

[DSorrow]

14 hours ago, gameboy1234 said:

Personally I think this is way too fast.

I'd agree with you if CoH was a game that promoted playing just one main character, like vanilla WoW or something.