The Tank Gods. . .

[Haijinx]

Guassians definitely can stack.

 

It stacks if used in tactics.  Notably run ahead of the group, then once they catch up it will often double fire.  

 

It stacks when used in build up also.  Happens often on my Stalker due to the ATO.   

 

Which is nice, double build up plus double guassians crushing uppercut crit is a very effective boss smasher.

[Sovera]

13 hours ago, Werner said:

Admittedly not statistically significant since so few pylons, but on the Invuln/MA I’ve been testing on beta:

547 seconds with 16 monkeys

538 seconds with 8 monkeys

588 seconds in Focus Chi instead

608 seconds in Focus Chi instead

 

So putting it in Invincibility is probably better, but not exciting. Back to the Shield/MA I’ve been testing, then (327 and 304 with 8 monkeys).

 

I'm not gonna lie. I never played invuln because I disliked the lack of a 'real' heal (being one that is only up once a minute or so). Looking now at the interactions with Invincibility made me want to try it but eh, if Fire Armor melts 90% of the content at a good clip (for a Tanker) I don't feel like being able to tank 99% of the content makes up for the damage loss.

 

I'm very into the Path of Exile methodology of assigning the budget into being 'tough enough' and then the rest into damage instead of assigning 100% of the budget to surviving. If 50% if enough to survive then the other 50% are better spent somewhere else.

 

8 hours ago, Werner said:

Yeah. You could certainly build for more damage than I did, and maybe I could consider a dual build, but I think Shield is looking like a better platform to build what I want to play, even if it’s still on the slow side. But the truly suck levels of suck was me testing out a Super Reflexes/Staff build on beta - I couldn’t even scratch the pylon. Hahahahah NO.

 

I don't think this changes the baseline. Even if a different build does more damage it's still a % game and 8 or 16 mobs providing saturation wasn't a big swing with Gaussian.

[Infinitum]

4 hours ago, Sovera said:

I'm not gonna lie. I never played invuln because I disliked the lack of a 'real' heal (being one that is only up once a minute or so).

Your first goal as a tanker is to survive as long as you can without the need for a heal - and dull pain isn't just a heal its a hp capper - perma if you slot right and also increases you healing factor - in stuff like the Magisterium I'll cast that before the fight to make sure I am that much more durable.

 

4 hours ago, Sovera said:

I don't feel like being able to tank 99% of the content makes up for the damage loss.

You are kinda missing the point of what a tanker does then.

 

That's not saying they dont do good damage, in fact the damage on all my tankers is above average for tankers.

 

Their main job is to hold agro and survive it.  So that survivability factor is more important thantheir damage output.

 

Don't use the line that the content is so easy that role isn't needed, cause there is still content where it is needed - people just choose not to play it apparently.

 

4 hours ago, Sovera said:

I don't think this changes the baseline. Even if a different build does more damage it's still a % game and 8 or 16 mobs providing saturation wasn't a big swing with Gaussian.

i could be wrong but if Werner is like me - he wasn't talking about Gaussian here.

 

I believe we was alluding to not adding a bunch of powers with procs to benefit dmg at the expense of survivability.

 

Gaussian isn't the end all be all for a tanker built for survivability - just a bonus.  If you are an invul - especially an invul ss - the best spot for it is invincibility.

 

I'm not saying your builds and play style and focus is wrong, but it's not really tanking once you sacrifice the survivability for dmg output.

 

I'm somewhat guilty myself by not taking taunt anymore, but the gauntlet agro control is so good I can do that job without taunt - survive - and kill faster which all go hand and hand with the role.

 

But if you faceplant - you can't tank.

[Sovera]

You have only my respect, Infinitum. But I threw my Fire Armor at the 801 (in a full group, not solo) and survived it. 50% survival seems fine. I can also tank Recluse with four towers up and not die (if I remember to use Consume so he does not drain me in one hit). Soloed ITF at +4x8 with no deaths (ok, ok, not a big achievement 😄). And this is me without Shockwave for extra mitigation.

 

Carnival is still iffy though but doable. And I also had a magnificent death against Awakened Longbow who threw me around up and down until I died. In both cases it means I don't plunge in Leroy style and actually choose targets.

 

 

I'm not downplaying your comments because you are correct. But once we are capable of surviving those tasks I mentioned is it safe to say that 95% of the game can be done with a build emphasizing damage?

 

We should not downplay the effect of killing faster. Dead things are not hurting us back.

[Werner]

1 hour ago, Infinitum said:

Your first goal as a tanker is to survive as long as you can without the need for a heal

If two tankers survive content equally in practice, and one has no self heal, while the other is healing themselves frequently, I wouldn't say that the second is failing as a tanker.

1 hour ago, Infinitum said:

5 hours ago, Sovera said:

I don't think this changes the baseline. Even if a different build does more damage it's still a % game and 8 or 16 mobs providing saturation wasn't a big swing with Gaussian.

i could be wrong but if Werner is like me - he wasn't talking about Gaussian here.

I wasn't, but I also agree with the point that I think Sovera was making. The same techniques I could apply to improve my invuln's damage could be applied to improve my shield's damage, such as taking musculature instead of cardiac, or adding more damage procs at the cost of some set bonuses. Those will probably add similar DPS to both, so more to the invuln in percentage terms, but it's the same basic idea - most of the things you can do to improve the invuln's damage can be applied to other primaries that start out ahead, keeping them ahead. Gaussian's is a bit of an exception since I can't do the invincibility trick on my shield, but on the surface it didn't seem like anywhere near enough to close the gap, and comes at the cost of using it as part of an alpha strike, so it's a trade off.

1 hour ago, Infinitum said:

it's not really tanking once you sacrifice the survivability for dmg output.

If you very rarely die in the content you actually play, and you hold aggro and help keep the squishies alive, then I think that you're tanking well, and that you have enough survivability that it's perfectly reasonable to then focus on damage. Survival is fairly binary, but building for survival isn't binary - it's a spectrum. If you and I fall further towards the survivability end than the damage output end, I don't think that's objectively better or worse, it's just what we think best suits how we actually play and the content we actually face. My builds aren't for everyone. They're for me and for the friends I regularly team with. And while I think I fall towards the survivability end of the spectrum, I'm definitely not all the way to one side. On the shield tanker I'm planning out, for instance, I'll probably take assault core rather than melee core, assault rather than one with the shield, and normally use an Achilles heel in crippling axe kick rather than adding 6% toxic/psi damage resistance. I have a minimum single target damage output I'm willing to accept, which is enough to defeat a basic level 54 AV in some sort of reasonable time frame without envenomed daggers or lore pets or that sort of thing, just what I'd consider my baseline performance, which won't necessarily match anyone else's definition of baseline. I think soloing level 54 AVs is kind of the opposite of tanking, but it's something I want to be able to do, so I build for it, not just for tanking.

Edited August 19, 2020 by Werner

[Gobbledigook]

You can build for survival and status resists and survive anything or you can build to survive 95% of content and have some decent dps.

 

You could have a damage build on build one and a survival build on 2 for harder group content. 

 

Either way it's every individuals choice how they build and variety is always good.

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 hour ago, Infinitum said:

But if you faceplant - you can't tank.

 

41 minutes ago, Sovera said:

We should not downplay the effect of killing faster. Dead things are not hurting us back.

 

Pretty sure this is why I can't stand certain ATs. If you're eating dirt, your DPS drops to zero. OTOH, as Sovera states, if THEY'RE eating dirt, it doesn't matter how survivable you are.

 

For the record, I can't complete a max diff ITF with my fire/em tank. Soon as khels are in the mix, I get slowed to the point that neither my attacks nor heal can fire off and I can't move to get out from under the debuffs. Granted, this last run I didn't utilize afterburner to get the hell outta dodge as soon as I saw my defense go into the red. Because I don't like doing that. Playing SR, I'm accustomed to just sitting in the thick of it, ignoring all the defense debuffs and slows and whatever else is being thrown at me. Right up until those lovely autohits start coming in. Then only the SR tank survives unless I start cheating with ultimate insps or P2W garbage.

 

In the end:

8 minutes ago, Gobbledegook said:

Either way it's every individuals choice how they build and variety is always good.

 

[Werner]

29 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Soon as khels are in the mix, I get slowed to the point that neither my attacks nor heal can fire off and I can't move to get out from under the debuffs.

It might not be worth the slots, and you may have considered and rejected the idea, but many builds can easily add 65% recharge/slow resist by picking up a winter’s gift and splitting superior blistering cold across three useless attacks like your tier 1, boxing, and brawl. Add another winter set somewhere and you’ll have 80%, hopefully good enough to notice the slows, but not really be bothered by them.

[Infinitum]

Too many to quote, but follow my points here and why I see it the way i see it.

 

Let me preface it by saying there is nothing wrong at all with what any of you are describing. 

 

But its not tanking - I guess the best description would be soloing.

 

And again there is nothing at all wrong with that.

 

I like teaming and please dont take this as me saying I'm more of a team player than anyone else, but I could care less what my tanks DPS is (its fine though).

 

I like to have the knowledge that I can survive any content in the game indefinitely - on my tanks.  Yeah 95% is great but when that 5% catches you it catches you and makes you have tea time and watch supernanny at gunpoint.

 

I have toyed with the idea of increasing damage, and changing epics and adding procs, but the increase was marginal at best just to solo something a scrapper or stalker could do by default a lot better because that's their role.  But in doing so I gave up that smidge of mitigation and reliability I want on my tankers to be able to wade into any content and pretend its a tickle fight while I rearrange their faces.

 

My tanks do have high burst damage - its the sustained damage I abandon actually.  Most of my tanks can one shot a lieutenant and two shot a boss - they just cant do it at a constant rate - my shield/elec can decimate any mob every 20-30 seconds in 3 or 4 attacks because they are all huge AOE, but av fights are difficult without a team because its just not set up that way - in fact I will never ever run the reichtsman with that one again. lol

 

Burst damage will look impressive against 95% of the content because it will allow you to have the huge blows that are impressive but take around 20 or 30 seconds to burst again, but by that point usually any spawn is defeated.  It really falls flat vs AVs and such cause its a see saw you hurt them they heal in the gap because I haven't built to sustain the gap.  That's what I have a team for.

 

Taking a look at the other ATs and how I view them:

 

I have scrappers and stalkers that can solo any AV because damage is their role - they survive well too but can get rocked occasionally but thats when I hot harder and faster to out kill the incoming.

 

My controllers control - can lock down any spawn and make them helpless while the team destroys them - incredibly slow to kill initially but the stacking debuffs and layered damage increase like going downhill.

 

My blasters/corruptors rain damage down from distance while hovering - my least favorite AT I actually play do I dont have much to say about them.

 

My tankers absorb the Alpha collapse the spawn AoE half the spawn and laugh at the rest while we take them out.  They are slow unkillable behemoths that can take out the side of a mountain with an attack but do it at a measured pace.

 

Everything has a role to play in my CoH worldview and its cool to see a well built team take out content.

 

But the beauty of this game is you can take on content with any number of team compositions and none of them are wrong.

 

I guess my overall gripe is why bother playing different classes at all if you play them all to do the same thing? and doesnt it get boring only building for damage output?

 

And again I see nothing wrong with building however you want to, but in a tanker thread talking about what a tankers role is, and what they do best - it isn't damage there are other less fortunate ATs for that. lol

 

That's just how I play and how I see it.

 

Edited August 19, 2020 by Infinitum

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 hour ago, Werner said:

It might not be worth the slots, and you may have considered and rejected the idea, but many builds can easily add 65% recharge/slow resist by picking up a winter’s gift and splitting superior blistering cold across three useless attacks like your tier 1, boxing, and brawl. Add another winter set somewhere and you’ll have 80%, hopefully good enough to notice the slows, but not really be bothered by them.

No, I had not looked into it heavily yet. Thanks for those pointers.

 

And I mispoke earlier. Apparently I can pull off a max diff ITF and had already done so with my fire/em tank. About to clear final Rom again. Just hate having to run away to get debuffs to fall off so I don't die. I'll edit this post with a pic if I can get it done again with zero faceplants.

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

My tankers absorb the Alpha collapse the spawn AoE half the spawn and laugh at the rest while we take them out.  They are slow unkillable behemoths that can take out the side of a mountain with an attack but do it at a measured pace.

I think a lot of us, and apparently the devs as well given the recent tank damage buffs, see tanking in exactly the same way but our view is tempered by the fact that even the weakest tank armor set can pull off the task you describe as "absorb the Alpha collapse the spawn AoE half the spawn and laugh at the rest while we take them out." So can most brutes.

Throw in "but tanks also control the battlefield through taunt AND the above" and I have to say again, yea... so can most brutes.

I get building a tank purely to tank. I have a lvl 50+ invul/ice tank that is amazing at survival and aggro management. Her damage kinda sucks but that was by design.

 

We're still "tanking" with our high DPS tanks. We're still doing the same job you do and probably just as well, while also dealing out higher damage.

[Infinitum]

1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

I think a lot of us, and apparently the devs as well given the recent tank damage buffs, see tanking in exactly the same way but our view is tempered by the fact that even the weakest tank armor set can pull off the task you describe as "absorb the Alpha collapse the spawn AoE half the spawn and laugh at the rest while we take them out." So can most brutes.

Throw in "but tanks also control the battlefield through taunt AND the above" and I have to say again, yea... so can most brutes.

I get building a tank purely to tank. I have a lvl 50+ invul/ice tank that is amazing at survival and aggro management. Her damage kinda sucks but that was by design.

 

We're still "tanking" with our high DPS tanks. We're still doing the same job you do and probably just as well, while also dealing out higher damage.

The devs raised the damage cap and increased the radius and target max for tanks - I see that as defining the role of being a bust damage type to control the spawn while the team focuses on the dps on the hard target while the tanker also contributes and keeps the hard targets attention.

 

Brutes are similar but a little different, they are a good bit better on st dps on hard targets and that's how I see the tanker and brute classes divided - tankers can by default survive easier earlier and cheaper than a brute.

 

A brute can never accomplish AOE now as effeciently as a tanker can, wheras a tanker can't accomplish the ST dps sustained a brute can.

 

They both can maintain agro, but the tanker will do it better and hold a lot more of it.

 

I played brutes more prior to the tanker change because it met all the criteria I was looking for to be the tip of the spear, but the tanker patch swayed it enough to my play style of hold attention, and burst damage them to death with huge AOE and agro control.

 

Brutes have a place though as the agro control ST specialist.

 

If you sacrifice the mitigation factor for damage there's no way you can do the same things my tankers can do in all situations.  But if you put a team around one of my tankers it will progress just as fast as if I were max dps because its a negligible effect on a good team and I know I'm not going to be rattled by anything.

[Bill Z Bubba]

 

Ugh. Hour better than my last time and still no deaths... but... ugh. (Fire/EM tank built for damage.) Yes, max diff.

[triduum]

Great info all and thank you for all your builds, tips and guidance.

 

I have 8 tanks now, I love them all and I have loved tanks since live.

Ice/SS

Elec/Stone

Rad/Dark

TW/WP

SR/Claws

Inv/MA

Shield/WM

DA/Staff

 

The SR/Claws started capping earlier than I have ever seen. Incredible to me. My shield/War Mace shield ports into mobs with Shield Charge and knocks them around till my team kills them. My TW/WP tank is named Ash Housewares pulls out his----Titan Chainsaw---and I smile every time he does, and he messes people up. All in all, I think my Shield/War Mace tank is most fun to play, and my SR/Claws is my "buckle the boots up and do the job" guy.

[Sir Myshkin]

10 hours ago, Infinitum said:

I guess my overall gripe is why bother playing different classes at all if you play them all to do the same thing, and doesn't it get boring only building for damage output?

looks at comment...

 

looks at Rad/SS/Soul...

 

looks at comment...

 

intensely looks at Rad/SS/Soul...

 

worryingly looks back at comment...

[Infinitum]

20 minutes ago, Sir Myshkin said:

looks at comment...

 

looks at Rad/SS/Soul...

 

looks at comment...

 

intensely looks at Rad/SS/Soul...

 

worryingly looks back at comment...

Yeah, proc builds are nice arent they?  😉

[Infinitum]

On 8/14/2020 at 11:30 PM, Sir Myshkin said:

I cannot say he has never died, but his deaths have majority been my own fault outside of a couple where the Fear hole in Radiation Armor has gotten me killed (can't save myself if I can't do anything!).

 

On 8/17/2020 at 12:41 AM, Sir Myshkin said:

Terrorize is the thing that catches me from them. I have 61% Psi Resists without Meltdown active, so I generally don't fear their damage as much, but the Fear's they stack up have caught me panic-clicking a heal. Very likely Fear that caught you too since Fear and Confuse are the two holes that hurt the most. I catch myself hesitating when teamed and enemies have the ability to confuse, I'm apologizing in advance with "Sorry if I suddenly hit you for 1,000 points of damage, it wasn't on purpose!"

 

See, those are things i never have to worry about on my Rad/Rad.

[Sir Myshkin]

1 hour ago, Infinitum said:

See, those are things i never have to worry about on my Rad/Rad.

You's only has 2 pts of Fear protection, that's child's play for Mommy Murder!

 

looks over shoulder for impending insta-kill for speaking her name

[Tsuko]

1 hour ago, Infinitum said:

 

Your rad² tanker looks amazing and in any other games i would say it's the best road for a tank : cause in "holy trinity" games, there are no endgame content "solo tankable" without extreme supports. Here in CoX, if we look at optimal team builds instead just player builds, IMHO, even offensive tankers are not sure to make the draft : when i see my old SCRAPPER "team tanker build" who down a pylon in an average 80 seconds with a full area rotation and confront fully sloted and that we did all the MO tf in +4 with no tanker or brutes... The only moment we took something else for tanking was for trials and it was some brutes for ST punchvoke with optimal ST dps : the plethora of buff / debuff / incarnates makes any brute immortal so why not using the better solution ? Variety of gameplay is cool, of course and it's the good side of CoX, cause in any examples i gave, a defensive immortal tanker could have been used too, and, i m sure, with great success.

[Infinitum]

53 minutes ago, Sir Myshkin said:

You's only has 2 pts of Fear protection, that's child's play for Mommy Murder!

 

looks over shoulder for impending insta-kill for speaking her name

Look at the resistance, I have never been feared.

 

But even if I was, im res capped to psi with 2 stacks of MotT.  They can't hurt me.

 

Oh, I have melee core also which has front loaded status protection - I didn't have slotted on in mids.

 

I also have assault radial I swap between the two as needed.

Edited August 20, 2020 by Infinitum

[Infinitum]

 

That is with the front loaded Melee Core - Always on effects but without the toggled resistance effects.

 

In the amount of time putting this together looking at that build i figured out a way to cap negative.  haha  I could cap Psi also but at too great of a cost IMO, it will cap anyway with MotT 2 stacked.

[Gobbledigook]

It is easy enough to build an unkillable Tanker, they are designed to do this.  But I myself prefer mostly unkillable whilst having much better dps. A scrapper will do more dps but be less survivable still.

 

Blasters can and are built Tanky whilst having good dps so why not a Tanker building the opposite as with minimal effort the are very hard to kill.

 

It all depends on what content you do and whether you team a lot. A Tanker with already capped resists etc will gain nothin from a teams buffs but a more offensive Tanker will gain nicely from the teams buffs and still contribute nicely to the teams dps and killing fast is a survival boost.

 

Just play the Tanker the way you want to as they are all awesome 🙂

Edited August 20, 2020 by Gobbledegook

[Infinitum]

1 hour ago, Gobbledegook said:

It is easy enough to build an unkillable Tanker, they are designed to do this.  But I myself prefer mostly unkillable whilst having much better dps. A scrapper will do more dps but be less survivable still.

 

Blasters can and are built Tanky whilst having good dps so why not a Tanker building the opposite as with minimal effort the are very hard to kill.

 

It all depends on what content you do and whether you team a lot. A Tanker with already capped resists etc will gain nothin from a teams buffs but a more offensive Tanker will gain nicely from the teams buffs and still contribute nicely to the teams dps and killing fast is a survival boost.

 

Just play the Tanker the way you want to as they are all awesome 🙂

A res capped or def soft capped tanker can benefit from team +dmg buffs also.  Fulcrum shift FTW

[Gobbledigook]

20 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

A res capped or def soft capped tanker can benefit from team +dmg buffs also.  Fulcrum shift FTW

Of course both can if a kin is available. 🙂

 

I think I play my Tanker more like a safe Scrapper. I dive in and nuke them down fast before there becomes an issue. I neglected my psi resists to boost damage but barely notice it as I clear fast that even psi damage doesn't usually bother me (except that one time for some reason :p). I could easily build in more survival but this is good enough for me and most content and I am enjoying the extra dps.

 

If there is another Tanker in the team I will let them tank\taunt and I'll happily act as a Scranker offtank.  But just like Scrapperlock you can get Scrankerlock and mistakes can happen :))

Edited August 20, 2020 by Gobbledegook

[Infinitum]

13 minutes ago, Gobbledegook said:

Of course both can if a kin is available. 🙂

 

I think I play my Tanker more like a safe Scrapper. I dive in and nuke them down fast before there becomes an issue. I neglected my psi resists to boost damage but barely notice it as I clear fast that even psi damage doesn't usually bother me (except that one time for some reason :p). I could easily build in more survival but this is good enough for me and most content and I am enjoying the extra dps.

 

If there is another Tanker in the team I will let them tank\taunt and I'll happily act as a Scranker offtank.  But just like Scrapperlock you can get Scrankerlock and mistakes can happen :))

Do you have a pylon time?  Just curious?