Is game balance pointless in MMORPGs?

[Frostbiter]

18 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

And draw attention to myself?  A good plot device goes unnoticed until it's relevant.

Thats not a no on busting into threads and handing out verbal smackdowns. 😄 

[Luminara]

7 minutes ago, Frostbiter said:

Thats not a no on busting into threads and handing out verbal smackdowns. 😄 

 

Good plot device, not perfect plot device.  😉

[Rathulfr]

6 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

magic nipple

Dammit!  Now I gotta make another alt.

 

(edit:)

 

 

Magic Nipple.costume

Edited September 29, 2020 by Rathulfr

[Rathulfr]

5 hours ago, Luminara said:

 

I'm a plot device, but no-one ever uses me.  Such a disappointment.

Not to be confused with 

 

the P.L.O.T. device

The Phased Linear Oscillation Transducer is a miraculous device, capable of producing such a variety of effects that many find it simply unbelievable. However, overusing a P.L.O.T. device can have serious consequences, and the more egregious uses can strain the very fabric of reality. P.L.O.T devices have fallen out of favor overall, but many a young and reckless pioneer has picked up a well-used P.L.O.T. device and run with it.

[Haijinx]

On 9/27/2020 at 1:42 AM, Bill Z Bubba said:

How about let the game decide the difficulty? It sees you're fully IOed out and T4ed it automatically throws in extra buff/debuffers to the enemy in question? It automatically adds EBs where they didn't exist before? Random AVs with missions suddenly set to Kill All?

 

But if you've got nothing but TOs in your build and running at +0/x1 it adds nothing.

I doubt we'd ever see it in this game but this would be a good way to do it. 

 

You could perhaps assign each bit of Gear / implant / Io / what have you / a score and add them up.  

 

And use that score to determine the difficulty of the opposition. 

[Haijinx]

6 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Lies. No brute can outdamage any scrapper. Using exact same builds for claws/sr I've proven this time and time again. You are wrong. Full stop. And you can thank the scrapper AT IOs for that.

Brutes DO have better HP and higher res caps. That part is true.

If you teamed with a lot of Damage buffers the Brute would come ahead.  

 

Or those that buff resistance on the other side I suppose.   

 

It would be a lot closer without the ATOs though, wouldn't it.  Especially for claws since Brute actually got better base numbers based on their scale there.  

[Bill Z Bubba]

34 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

If you teamed with a lot of Damage buffers the Brute would come ahead.  

Claws with Followup, Focus, Slash with a total arcanatime of 3.96sec

Scrapper total base damage for those three attacks: 219.5909

Brute total base damage for those three attacks: 158.0722

Scrapper damage cap is +400 vs brutes +600, right?

Scrapper: 219.5909*5 = 1097.9545 but scrappers get crits, just 5% for minions, 1097.9545*1.05 = 1152.852225 (291 DPS) and against lts/bosses 1207.74995 (305 DPS)

Brute: 158.0722*7 = 1106.5054 (279 DPS)

 

Unless I'm doin something wrong, scrappers win even without the AT IO +crit procs in there and definitely with.

[Haijinx]

2 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Claws with Followup, Focus, Slash with a total arcanatime of 3.96sec

Scrapper total base damage for those three attacks: 219.5909

Brute total base damage for those three attacks: 158.0722

Scrapper damage cap is +400 vs brutes +600, right?

Scrapper: 219.5909*5 = 1097.9545 but scrappers get crits, just 5% for minions, 1097.9545*1.05 = 1152.852225 (291 DPS) and against lts/bosses 1207.74995 (305 DPS)

Brute: 158.0722*7 = 1106.5054 (279 DPS)

 

Unless I'm doin something wrong, scrappers win even without the AT IO +crit procs in there and definitely with.

Do Brutes only get +600 now?

 

I thought it was +650  

 

I remember when Claws first came out for Brutes there was some aggravation because they got longer recharge times and thus better relative damage scale.  But of course it only helps if that tiny edge isn't blown away somewhere else lol 

[Haijinx]

Interesting though.  I thought Captain PHs stated target for Brute damage cap was to allow them to slightly edge out scrappers at the cap only.  (Not counting ATO stuff) 

 

 

[Bill Z Bubba]

13 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Do Brutes only get +600 now?

 

I thought it was +650  

 

I remember when Claws first came out for Brutes there was some aggravation because they got longer recharge times and thus better relative damage scale.  But of course it only helps if that tiny edge isn't blown away somewhere else lol 

I was unsure so I went and ate a buncha reds til the monitor went blue at 600.

 

11 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Interesting though.  I thought Captain PHs stated target for Brute damage cap was to allow them to slightly edge out scrappers at the cap only.  (Not counting ATO stuff)

Well, they do, if you ignore that crits happen, by a whopping 2 DPS.

Edited September 29, 2020 by Bill Z Bubba

[Sarrate]

7 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Lies. No brute can outdamage any scrapper. Using exact same builds for claws/sr I've proven this time and time again. You are wrong. Full stop. And you can thank the scrapper AT IOs for that.

Even without the AT IO, it was cutting it pretty close, even on Live:

 

Pre-Page 4:

Brute: 0.75 * 8.75 = 6.5625

Scrapper (minion): 1.125 * 5 * 1.05 = 5.90625  (Brutes match at +687.5% dmg)

Scrapper (non-minion): 1.125 * 5 * 1.1 = 6.1875 (Brutes match at +725% dmg)

 

Post Page 4:

Brute: 0.75 * 8 = 6

Scrapper (minion): 1.125 * 5 * 1.05 = 5.90625  (Brutes match at +687.5% dmg, so 12.5% shy of the cap)

Scrapper (non-minion): 1.125 * 5 * 1.1 = 6.1875 (Brutes match at +725% dmg, impossible due to their lowered dmg cap)

 

I was going to say that Scrapper damage is spikier (due to crits and smaller amounts of +dmg having a bigger effect on their damage), but Brutes also have to contend with the more variable nature of Fury (not an issue if they're tanking / in the thick of it, but if mobs are just getting deleted before they can build it up, maybe... I haven't played in high level teams to know that).

[Haijinx]

Okay then.  So not even on teams.

 

This where we mention some Stalker combos can OD some Scrapper combos lol

 

Also Widows get terrific scale numbers on their claws.  But their damage cap is so low .. 

[Troo]

11 hours ago, Judasace said:

I have multiple IO'd/Incarnate blasters, and they are NEVER in any danger of getting mezzed to death or one shotted.

duh

 

11 hours ago, Judasace said:

Basically you're describing a godmode character - top tier damage, infinite survivability, high end buffs and debuffs.  That isn't "balance".

.."top tier damage, infinite survivability, high end buffs and debuffs." Might be a Sentinel.. wait... troo, that's just mean.

[chi1701]

On 9/29/2020 at 3:08 AM, Haijinx said:

I doubt we'd ever see it in this game but this would be a good way to do it. 

 

You could perhaps assign each bit of Gear / implant / Io / what have you / a score and add them up.  

 

And use that score to determine the difficulty of the opposition. 

Interesting thought, but due to the nature of the game, not a good idea to implement. Not all classes are capable of either dishing out damage or mitigating it. Think it would force certain classes to only be able to play in groups such as defenders.

[Doomguide2005]

Difficulty of creating such a scoring system aside (enormous and improbable), I'd say all ATs are in fact capable of dishing out and mitigating damage sufficiently for the vast majority of content.  There are at least 2 threads in the defender forums with Empaths doing solo +4/×8 ITF runs.  One of them is a 'Master of' run.

 

And personally I'd just as soon run with a team of defenders anyway ... force (and fun) multiplication and all that.  Judging (scoring) such a team would be added difficulty in any case because of force multiplication.  You'd need to score both the individual and the synergy of the team.  Something probably as difficult if not more so than finding the 'proper balance' of the game itself.

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 hour ago, chi1701 said:

Interesting thought, but due to the nature of the game, not a good idea to implement. Not all classes are capable of either dishing out damage or mitigating it. Think it would force certain classes to only be able to play in groups such as defenders.

No reason that there couldn't be an AT modifier attached as well.

[Sarrate]

On 9/28/2020 at 8:10 PM, Haijinx said:

Do Brutes only get +600 now?

 

I thought it was +650

 

On 9/28/2020 at 8:22 PM, Bill Z Bubba said:

I was unsure so I went and ate a buncha reds til the monitor went blue at 600.

I remembered the damage cap was lowered, but I couldn't remember to what value. Instead of testing it, I dug it out of the patch notes. The notes say:

 

Quote

 

• Brute:
  • Ranged and Melee damage modifiers are now equal at 0.75.
  • Damage buff cap lowered from 775% to 700%.

 

 

I took that to mean that their damage cap was now +700% (800% total), not +600% (700% total). So, the numbers in my above post were in error... oh geeze, I think I found a number of mistakes. Gosh. Alright, so I need to rectify this failing. Have a table:

 

	Brute	Scrapper (minion)	Scrapper (non-minion)		Extra +Dmg
Base	0.75	1.125	1.125
Fury	1.8	0	0
Crit	1	1.05	1.1
Cap	7	5	5
Enh	0.95	0.95	0.95
Scale	2.8125	2.3034375	2.413125		0
Scale	3	2.59875	2.7225		0.25
Scale	3.1875	2.8940625	3.031875		0.5
Scale	3.375	3.189375	3.34125		0.75
Scale	3.5625	3.4846875	3.650625		1
Scale	3.75	3.78	3.96		1.25
Scale	3.9375	4.0753125	4.269375		1.5
Scale	4.125	4.370625	4.57875		1.75
Scale	4.3125	4.6659375	4.888125		2
Scale	4.5	4.96125	5.1975		2.25
Scale	4.6875	5.2565625	5.506875		2.5
Scale	4.875	5.551875	5.81625		2.75
Scale	5.0625	5.8471875	6.125625		3
Scale	5.25	5.90625	6.1875		3.25
Scale	5.25	5.90625	6.1875		3.5

 

[UltraAlt]

On 9/18/2020 at 8:55 AM, Xanatos said:

...  I've never understood why game balance matters in an uncompetitive PVE environment.....

The reason that game balance matters in a PVE environment is that any archetype .... 

1) ...should be able to survive the same kind of situation if they are built for solo play.

A defender should be able to heal, debuff, and damage as much as a tank can shield, heal, damage .... Scraper damage, avoid/shield/heal ... blaster damage, control, heal...etc.

(That being said, the power sets are build to allow you to build any archetype so that it is for your benefit or for the benefit of your teammates)

2) ... should get as much influence and xp for the encounter ... solo or in a group.

If you want to break it down on a team, characters should get as much xp for healing as doing damage and as much for controlling/debuffing than doing damage

3) ...allows players a feeling that they are not nerfing themselves by playing "weak" class.

(better worded "Promotes players to explore the different Archetypes and power sets in the game")

 

I understand entirely that there at Tanks that they are playing the most important archetype in the game.

When City of Heroes came out, that was definitely the case, but should not have been that way... it was that way due to the fact that archetypes were not balanced.

A tank could level faster and gain more xp because they did more damage and were more prone not to have to go to the hospital. A defender on the other hand did less damage so gained less xp and less influence and was more likely to get sent to the hospital.

 

From that Tanker point of view, "I should get more XP and influence. I'm power powerful than some weakling healer. All they do is heal. I am the one that defeats the foe"

From the Defender point of view, "Freaking tank wouldn't taunt. If hadn't been healing him, he would have died to. And I debuffed that AV so it made it easier the tank to hit him. I don't deserve as much XP and influence?! what?!"

 

Before the Auction House, I had a level 17-20 something Defender. Other players on a team were outleveling me left and right. I didn't have enough influence to even buy enough training enhances to fill my slots.

It was horrible.

 

Then game balancing of the archetypes. My defenders started to get equivalent xp for being part of the team and not simply for how much damage they did. Certainly, I was getting no xp for healing or debuffing. 

 

What really balanced the game for me in PVE was the Auction House. Well, I don't know if balance PVE is really saying it correctly.

The Auction House on live was the best PVP in City of Heroes. Everyone was equal. The only balance difference dealt with how much salvage, recipe, etc. you could hold and how much infl you had to start with.

 

So  yeah, as an Alt-jumper that has played most of the archetypes (I don't think I ever played a Widow, but I think played a Spider/Crab once) and a lot of the archetypes, I can see an imbalance and for most players ... they aren't designing for flavour ... they want that cookie-cutter min-max on the OP archetype to get the most bang for their F2P.

 

That still goes on.

So from  a game balance perspective and "easy mode" of player creation, it would make sense to allow each archetype a generic (cookie-cutter min-max) build which min-maxed out (more on this in a moment) and that character load-out is then balanced against the others.

 

Each of these generic Archetype character selections could have 2 modes (much like DCUO) one for solo and one for teaming; however, you do don't pick powers or slots. These are automatically added as you level. You also don't slot enhancements. You have pay influence in mass and then the load-out automatically add enhances to a level  you are able to pay influence for. It automatically changes the enhancements to the enhancement sets that you have enough influence to purchase. 

 

I really didn't even want to go there, but that is the way may players end up playing by using Mids. It just takes away the extra layer of going to Mids.

... but it does hit that balancing thing again because you don't want to leave player with..."that archetype is useless. Why are you playing that?"

[And, yes, I have been Archetype/power-pick shamed in CoH before ... on more than one occasion]

 

That being said, most of the players that are going to want to cookie-cutter, min-max are likely to just want to beat up stuff anyway. To say it another way, finesse and style take too long.

 

So to me, it is always about game balance because I want to explore the various archetypes and power sets ... and especially my character conceptions.

[Sovera]

The reason game balance matters.... is the reason that shows up each time I go to look at old obscure MMOs and check what class to pick which is solo friendly, and invariably there is a 'Oh yeah, pick X, it is completely OP. You do great damage, are tanky, and get self heals, so you can solo dungeons. Everyone uses it'.

 

The only thing that saves TW from being the only choice is how terrible it is at leveling and exemplaring, and requires funds to at least be able to cover a forum copied build. Without Momentum, without the endurance guzzling, then TW would be the sole choice.... and then yes, since there is not a lot to do and the leveling is fast then people would try new characters after a while of enjoying their brokenness, but I am unsure how many would find the game palatable after having delved into cheat mode where each hit obliterates NPCs *and* CCs them, *and* hits in AoE.

 

Tell the the new player to try something like Katana afterwards and they would be like,

 

'Well... It's much faster. No big pauses. No endurance guzzling. It's really nice....'

'...but?'

'But I'm hitting them and they aren't dying?'

 

 

Heck, I get that after the procced out Fire/Claws Tanker and it is not exactly a community recognized power house.

[Golden Azrael]

Yeah.  Batman winding the Hulk.  Crepe writing.  Like Batman wouldn't bounce off the Hulk as if he'd tried to jump into a brick wall..., 'Ah...oh...my god...I think I...broke my leg...'  C'mon...

 

As for Tier 9s.  Some good ones.  Some do under whelm though.

 

Like EMP for Tricks Arrow (which I'm currently playing.)  EMP, I'd lose the -15 sec penalty for Endurance.  It's hard enough keeping a Defender's end bar full with two attack chains.

 

If it's Attacks?  Energy Transfer could stand being much harder hitting if one is using their life force.  Check out Over Drive NPC for how Energy should hit.  Like a truck.

 

Unstoppables?  I like WP's Tier 9.  

 

But some of the others which force the tank to run away from the fight?  Uh.

 

Perhaps an end penalty where you're forced to do a couple of rounds of taunt?  Like the end burn out from the end of Hasten.  ie.  After a grand effort you're momentarily tired.

 

Azrael.

 

 

[Golden Azrael]

On 9/29/2020 at 2:46 AM, Rathulfr said:

Dammit!  Now I gotta make another alt.

 

(edit:)

 

 

Magic Nipple.costume 6.55 kB · 0 downloads

Bending over in that outfit must be uncomfortable.

 

Azrael.

[Golden Azrael]

1 hour ago, Sovera said:

The reason game balance matters.... is the reason that shows up each time I go to look at old obscure MMOs and check what class to pick which is solo friendly, and invariably there is a 'Oh yeah, pick X, it is completely OP. You do great damage, are tanky, and get self heals, so you can solo dungeons. Everyone uses it'.

 

The only thing that saves TW from being the only choice is how terrible it is at leveling and exemplaring, and requires funds to at least be able to cover a forum copied build. Without Momentum, without the endurance guzzling, then TW would be the sole choice.... and then yes, since there is not a lot to do and the leveling is fast then people would try new characters after a while of enjoying their brokenness, but I am unsure how many would find the game palatable after having delved into cheat mode where each hit obliterates NPCs *and* CCs them, *and* hits in AoE.

 

Tell the the new player to try something like Katana afterwards and they would be like,

 

'Well... It's much faster. No big pauses. No endurance guzzling. It's really nice....'

'...but?'

'But I'm hitting them and they aren't dying?'

 

 

Heck, I get that after the procced out Fire/Claws Tanker and it is not exactly a community recognized power house.

Titan..... Weapons.  What.... were...... Paragon..... thinking.  Playing..... with ......a .....giant kipper.  ........wait......for.......each...................attack!

 

Palpations just waiting for each attack to execute.  L50.  Unplayed.  It's awful.

 

Azrael.

[Golden Azrael]

On 9/28/2020 at 5:17 PM, Judasace said:

Have you actually played blasters at high levels on HC? Because I have multiple IO'd/Incarnate blasters, and they are NEVER in any danger of getting mezzed to death or one shotted.  Their defense is so much offense that the enemy never has a chance to do any damage. My blasters can go toe to toe with anything in the game without ever being in danger of dying.

 

Defenders aren't meant to be primary damage dealers. But they're amazing and vital on the hardest content in the game.

 

Basically you're describing a godmode character - top tier damage, infinite survivability, high end buffs and debuffs.  That isn't "balance".

Have you actually played blasters with SOs until L50? 😛

 

Incarnates are demi-gods (half finished system)?  Who knew?

 

Defenders.  I have one that can +4 x8.  And deal lots of damage.

 

I'm not describing a god mode character.  I have no idea what you're talking about. 🙂

 

Scrappers.  Got eclipsed by Brutes when they came along hero side.   Now blasters can self buff they can eclipse a scrapper damage wise with 'less' fear.  But they can still be mezzed.  Scrappers can just wade in.

 

Wolverine is just a short punk with some claws.  Ofc the Hulk is going to damage his az'.

 

Azrael.

[Completist]

This is a great, wandering, thread and I am sorry for showing up late to the party. To summarize what everyone has said so far: balance is important, more or less, depending on context. 

 

I agree with @Xanatos's original sentiment (and the linked video) that the core purpose of game balance is to make the game more fun. But I definitely don't think balance is pointless: even in the context of easy, PvE, character-expression free play, power imbalance has an obvious negative impact. Character building and optimization may be a creative outlet as well as an analytical one, but it's never fun to feel weak or ineffectual. 

 

Perfect balance is impossible (or boring) and, as @Luminara eloquently put it, players will naturally migrate to the strongest options--Along with the "funnest" options. To diversify the meta and make the game seem more balanced, you can't just look at ATs, you have to look at the context and provide more pathways for optimization.

 

One important part of the OP that no one really touched on is tradeoffs. Back in the day--I was here for launch--the design was heavily dependent on weaknesses as limitations, like no access to psi resistance for some sets that linger. Paradoxically, limitations are wonderful for increasing player agency: character optimization is all about working within constraints. Making those sets more playable and balanced actually leads to fewer optimal builds, only counteracted by an influx of new options and power proliferation that continues to this day. Not that I'm suggesting limiting Stone Tankers to one armor at a time, e.g., but that improving balance might require changes to the gameplay, addressing the current binary context (Endgame PvE and PvP) for what makes a build viable/optimal. 

 

It could help to create a basic ontology between different roles and powersets--like the Color Wheel from Magic: The Gathering--and develop new contexts for ATs to shine. Imagine adhering to simple content tenets, e.g., "Ice tanks should be weaker against Magic factions and stronger against Science ones".

 

Right now hero viability is based on "be prepared for anything, or buff the guy who is." Establishing damage type and mez expectations for different tasks/factions would improve the perception of under-performing sets without any powerset changes at all: "Faction so-and-so has few minions and high-HP bosses, giving ST damage heroes an advantage", etc.

 

Creating more distinctive niches for ATs, as well as between different primaries and secondaries (i.e. damage/debuff types) would encourage specialization and lead to a broader meta. More holes!

[Snarky]

yes