Focused Feedback: Energy Melee Revamp

[Infinitum]

2 hours ago, siolfir said:

As it is now, with only one builder, it's still a combo system hiding as a charge/discharge system. You have to combo Total Focus and something else to use it.

You would/should use TF anyway.

 

At best it's now a 2 1 instead of a 1 2

 

At worst pick your poison it's versatile an you have options.

[Troo]

Here is what would get me to shut up and choke down the combo mechanic.

 

Drum roll.. (it's not revert-the-nerf)

 

Keep the combo mechanic.

Keep Total Focus > Power Crush & keep Total Focus > Energy Transfer but remove Total Focus > Bone Smasher

 

This lets folks choose to focus on AoE or Single Target and even switch focus mid encounter. It is simpler.

 

Of course adjust some numbers to avoid abuse.

 

I love disorient but I would be okay with removing the BS 100% stun. I can live with that.

 

Full time ET doesn't seem to be an option no matter how bad some may want it and some folks really want the AoE.

 

It seems like this might simplify the change enough to smooth over changing an existing power set in a substantial way.

 

This is not my idea but kind of where the comments here and other threads have led. 'Something is off' 'Move EF from BS" "Is TF>ET or TF>BS a choice" Etc. Etc. There has been a little drum beat that something needs to be done.

 

Edited October 28, 2020 by Troo
removed spoiler

[Infinitum]

1 hour ago, Bopper said:

Use BS before TF.

This... Right here, you are in control of your chain, just always play BS before TF like stalker AS.

[Bopper]

46 minutes ago, Tactical said:

This makes sense except in 'Jack of All Trades' in Bone Smasher. You're not getting jack in it.

I was hoping to see how quantifying a 100% regen debuff (effective dps, depending on target), a -30% special (debuff their attempts to support), and a guaranteed Mag 3 stun (control) is considered useless. I'll take a shot.

 

TF already provides a guaranteed Mag 3 stun, so spending your 2nd EF on BS will result in a hard stun on any boss (and if any other chance for stuns triggered, you neuter an EB). Thats not nothing.

 

But let's say you're fighting a level 50 AV that won't succumb to your stun. You also apply a 100% regen debuff, which gets reduced to 15%. What does that do? A level 50 AV has 28,218 HP, so it recovers 1411.9 HP every 15s at base. Because of your debuff, it now is every 17.65s. That converts the the targets Healing per second from 94 HP/S to 79.95 HP/S that is a net of -14.05 HP/S, which lasts for 15 seconds. So, that becomes 210 HPs effectively lost. A scrapper's base damage for Bone Smasher is 102.6 damage, enhance that by 100% and it becomes 205 damage. So basically that 210 HP lost is equivalent to Bone Smasher doing a fully enhanced crit. That's not nothing, especially since I am assuming 0% damage resistance in that comparison. If the AV had resistance, then multiply that effective damage appropriately.

 

Finally, it has -30% Special. Neat. Very situational, but that's why I used the term Jack of All Trades, when any situation arises you will have a use for Bone Smasher if you have to use it. Perhaps a better term would be to call Bone Smasher a Swiss Army Knife

Edited October 28, 2020 by Bopper

[Troo]

7 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

This... Right here, you are in control of your chain, just always play BS before TF like stalker AS.

If TF is activated and ET isn't ready.. there are ways that BS does get stuck.

 

Your option is a good one. Though, how many attacks is it that now predetermined by design? That's not being in control of what attacks to use when. This is part of what some don't like and why combo sets are avoided by some players. (maybe I've repeated this waay too much)

sorry for the edits after posting, that's what I do.

Edited October 28, 2020 by Troo

[Direct Crit]

Just now, Infinitum said:

This... Right here, you are in control of your chain, just always play BS before TF like stalker AS.

The problem is you'll also use BS after TF. Having dead space when you're completing an attack chain is inherently weaker than just losing the EF to use Bonesmasher. ET doesn't recharge fast enough to avoid this problem.

[Infinitum]

1 minute ago, Troo said:

If TF is activated and ET isn't ready.. there are ways that BS does get stuck.

 

Your option is a good one but now we really predetermining power selection in play.

Or dont take bone smasher, EP is a good substitute.

 

There have to be choices, and decisions with how you want to be optimal, but at the end of the day the ball is in your court.

[Infinitum]

1 minute ago, Tactical said:

The problem is you'll also use BS after TF. Having dead space when you're completing an attack chain is inherently weaker than just losing the EF to use Bonesmasher. ET doesn't recharge fast enough to avoid this problem.

Thats why EP exists.

 

You do realize if BS was any more or had a different option it would teter towards being unbalanced.

 

Like I just said, you have to make the decision how you want to be optimal.

[Direct Crit]

27 minutes ago, Bopper said:

I was hoping to see how quantifying a 100% regen debuff (effective dps, depending on target), a -30% special (debuff their attempts to support), and a guaranteed Mag 3 stun (control) is considered useless. I'll take a shot.

 

TF already provides a guaranteed Mag 3 stun, so spending your 2nd EF on BS will result in a hard stun on and boss (and if any other chance for stuns triggered, you neuter an EB). Thats not nothing.

 

But let's say you're fighting a level 50 AV that won't succumb to your stun. You also apply a 100% regen debuff, which gets reduced to 15%. What does that do? A level 50 AV has 28,218 HP, so it recovers 1411.9 HP every 15s at base. Because of your debuff, it now is every 17.65s. That converts the the targets Healing per second from 94 HP/S to 79.95 HP/S that is a net of -14.05 HP/S, which lasts for 15 seconds. So, that becomes 210 HPs effectively lost. A scrapper's base damage for Bone Smasher is 102.6 damage, enhance that by 100% and it becomes 205 damage. So basically that 210 HP lost is equivalent to Bone Smasher doing a fully enhanced crit. That's not nothing, especially since I am assuming 0% damage resistance in that comparison. If the AV had resistance, then multiply that effective damage appropriately.

 

Finally, it has -30% Special. Neat. Very situational, but that's why I used the term Jack of All Trades, when any situation arises you will have a use for Bone Smasher if you have to use it. Perhaps a better term would be to call Bone Smasher a Swiss Army Knife

I speak mainly from the perspective of a character that's designed to solo AVs and all content, I try to make that clear in most of my posts because I know I'm a niche for how most play the game. That being said:

Mag 3 Stun doesn't matter. It doesn't stop AVs, and anything else in the game doesn't live long enough/isn't enough of a threat that I find that utility useful.
 

210 damage is weighed against ET. It's not that the -Regen isn't useful, it's that it's inherently weaker than just popping ET again. Is it absolutely a useful bonus? Sure, I won't argue that. It's a bonus that feels mediocre though. It's debuffing I can't see and while I know it's effective and I know Bone Smasher still has use, that -Regen doesn't *feel* good. It doesn't feed the Timmy, it's a technical strength but it still feels like a missed opportunity for another quick, beefy ET. I don't have the math offhand but a buffed ET with a 1 second cast vs a 2.5 second cast is going to likely be more valuable damage wise, and it only becomes more so as I add more IOs and have tools like the Gaussian Proc, Assault, and IO damage bonuses.

 

-Special is.. cool? It's hard to rely on, I don't know off-hand who all it's going to affect to what extent, it's a mildly intangible concept that I can't effectively abuse without being away of every enemy capability in the game and while I do know 90% of what enemies do at this point I also have already built my character to the extreme that anything they can do doesn't matter, so -Special ends up falling by the wayside.

So in the end: Bone Smasher doesn't offer jack to me. At best it's a technical DPS gain on AVs, at worst it's a waste because I lose a fast-ET I could've used to tap a fleeing LT or to punish a boss.

But this is why I suggested a more defensive oriented EF effect too. If I'm not considering BS for damage where it immediately loses to ET and instead see BS as a boon for additional survivability that can be incorporated into my build then I'm not feeling as big of a loss from BS eating an EF I may have wanted to spend on ET instead. The sort of boon it grants has to be powerful enough to stand up against just getting extra damage from ET, and also that getting it sporadically still feels impactful.

Edited October 28, 2020 by Tactical
Additional thoughts.

[Direct Crit]

6 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Thats why EP exists.

 

You do realize if BS was any more or had a different option it would teter towards being unbalanced.

 

Like I just said, you have to make the decision how you want to be optimal.

You do realize I can't spam EP back to back because it also has a recharge that waits until it's activated? At any point I have to wait for dead space it immediately becomes more efficient to use Bone Smasher.

TF -> Fast ET -> EP -> Wait for Recharge -> EP ->Fast ET is going to inherently be weaker than TF -> Fast ET -> EP -> BS -> EP -> ET -> TF. Advocating for an even more inferior option under the guise of having choice is disingenuous at best. This is also assuming EXTREME recharge, which I would likely have on my build but becomes an even longer amount of downtime if you wait through downtime before you can ET again to take advantage of EFs generous duration.

Edited October 28, 2020 by Tactical

[Troo]

3 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Or dont take bone smasher, EP is a good substitute.

 

There have to be choices, and decisions with how you want to be optimal, but at the end of the day the ball is in your court.

'Don't use it' is a poor crutch for something that doesn't work well.

 

It's not my fault it doesn't work well. The design has a flaw in it. It seems many feel the same (even decision makers) with varying ideas of how to address it.

 

I am just leaning toward simpler and in the direction of the original rather than piling on more tangles.

 

You want hard hitting fast attacks, right? Me too.

You want the combo, I don't like the combo.. If I said I could live with the combo if it had one small change would you at least consider it?

[Infinitum]

1 minute ago, Tactical said:

You do realize I can't spam EP back to back because it also has a recharge that waits until it's activated? At any point I have to wait for dead space it immediately becomes more efficient to use Bone Smasher.

TF -> Fast ET -> EP -> Wait for Recharge -> EP ->Fast ET is going to inherently be weaker than TF -> Fast ET -> EP -> BS -> EP -> ET -> TF. Advocating for an even more inferior option under the guise of having choice is disingenuous at best. This is also assuming EXTREME recharge, which I would likely have on my build but becomes an even longer amount of downtime if you down before you can ET again to take advantage of EFs generous duration.

I dunno, my stalker doesn't mind EP.

 

Its a good option, just not an option you prefer.

 

If you are talking about a scrapper, it wont rival the stalkers ST capability nor should it.

 

I dont expect you to be happy with this, but I built my scrapper around WH as an opener in a group saturation to gain almost a guaranteed TF crit.

 

But if you are looking for the best ST EM look thats the stalker - as it should be.

[Vanden]

20 minutes ago, Troo said:

If TF is activated and ET isn't ready.. there are ways that BS does get stuck.

That really seems unlikely to happen, since ET has half the recharge of TF. With a high-recharge build it will recharge most of the way during just TF's animation.

Edited October 28, 2020 by Vanden

[Infinitum]

1 minute ago, Troo said:

'Don't use it' is a poor crutch for something that doesn't work well.

 

It's not my fault it doesn't work well. The design has a flaw in it. It seems many feel the same (even decision makers) with varying ideas of how to address it.

 

I am just leaning toward simpler and in the direction of the original rather than piling on more tangles.

 

You want hard hitting fast attacks, right? Me too.

You want the combo, I don't like the combo.. If I said I could live with the combo if it had one small change would you at least consider it?

Its not a crutch, its your choice, if you use it, use it wisely but you are the one with the keystrokes.

 

There are ways to use it without it messing you up.  

[Direct Crit]

5 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

I dunno, my stalker doesn't mind EP.

 

Its a good option, just not an option you prefer.

 

If you are talking about a scrapper, it wont rival the stalkers ST capability nor should it.

 

I dont expect you to be happy with this, but I built my scrapper around WH as an opener in a group saturation to gain almost a guaranteed TF crit.

 

But if you are looking for the best ST EM look thats the stalker - as it should be.

I am not looking for the best ST nor have I ever said that. I have stated that I feel for Crit based ATs the additional EF on Crit feels like a wasted opportunity due to the fact that BS' bonus doesn't really measure up to the effect we'd get if it had just been a flat bonus crit instead. I have also said that this is primarily a game feel thing, even as Bopper demonstrated Bone Smasher's effectiveness on an AV which I won't argue in the least, it's mostly about the game feel.

I 'get' a bonus EF on Crit, but the perk I get from it is.. some -Regen on Bone Smasher and a stun that I usually won't use. I would rather permanently lose the bonus EF and have that appropriate damage added back to TF as Crit Damage both to bolster TFs use for Stalkers and Scrappers and to give Stalkers/Scrappers a good target with their Critical Focused ATOs that's not just Bone Smasher. I have also said that if there needs to be a power adjustment to keep the numbers in line I'm all for it, as this is more of a 'game feel' issue than a numbers issue.

 

Also there is no 'minding' EP. EP is fine. I'm unsure how you get any sort of negative regard for EP from what I said, it's a fine filler for an attack chain.

Edited October 28, 2020 by Tactical

[Draeth Darkstar]

2 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

 

That was not the reason. The reason it went into Bone Smasher was to keep some parity with Energy Assault, something that is not necessary, just a sometimes "nice when things match."

 

 

So that means you're going to make Energy Manipulation match, right? Riiiiight? :3

[Infinitum]

3 minutes ago, Tactical said:

I am not looking for the best ST nor have I ever said that. I have stated that I feel for Crit based ATs the additional EF on Crit feels like a wasted opportunity due to the fact that BS' bonus doesn't really measure up to the effect we'd get if it had just been a flat bonus crit instead. I have also said that this is primarily a game feel thing, even as Bopper demonstrated Bone Smasher's effectiveness on an AV which I won't argue in the least, it's mostly about the game feel.

I 'get' a bonus EF on Crit, but the perk I get from it is.. some -Regen on Bone Smasher and a stun that I usually won't use. I would rather permanently lose the bonus EF and have that appropriate damage added back to TF as Crit Damage both to bolster TFs use for Stalkers and Scrappers and to give Stalkers/Scrappers a good target with their Critical Focused ATOs that's not just Bone Smasher. I have also said that if there needs to be a power adjustment to keep the numbers in line I'm all for it, as this is more of a 'game feel' issue than a numbers issue.

I get what you are saying but what you are describing is a situation created by being good, and wanting to be optimal.

 

Thats not a bad thing, if what you were describing was an issue it would be an issue on tankers and brutes also - but its a three choice system ET BS or PC.

 

It becomes an issue when you crit TF regularly - which is an elite problem to have - at that point you either modify your attack chain to accomodate your playstyle or you don't.

 

I wouldnt want to lose the dmg capability of the rest of the set to make optimized BS fit because at that point it would be better to use EP instead of BS in rotation just for a feels test.

 

My chain is this for Scrappers WH - TF - FET - EP - FET - EP - WH

 

It's very potent in mission clearing.

[Direct Crit]

2 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

I get what you are saying but what you are describing is a situation created by being good, and wanting to be optimal.

 

Thats not a bad thing, if what you were describing was an issue it would be an issue on tankers and brutes also - but its a three choice system ET BS or PC.

 

It becomes an issue when you crit TF regularly - which is an elite problem to have - at that point you either modify your attack chain to accomodate your playstyle or you don't.

 

I wouldnt want to lose the dmg capability of the rest of the set to make optimized BS fit because at that point it would be better to use EP instead of BS in rotation just for a feels test.

 

My chain is this for Scrappers WH - TF - FET - EP - FET - EP - WH

 

It's very potent in mission clearing.

No, it's a problem for the general gameplay of Stalkers and Scrappers. Just because that problem occurs less without IOs doesn't make it not a problem. You're also using both EP and BS in your rotation, there is no 'either or'. I really don't know how you're trying to work in wildly inefficient AoEs into an ST rotation which is primarily what I'm talking about, and as I've shown you multiple times there is no way to modify the attack chain. The most optimal, and natural, way to play when you're looking at effective performance is counter-intuitive to what a player will want out of the set. It ends up feeling bad, which is the entirely of the discussion to start. 

I feel you're discussing a wholly different scenario and worried about something that doesn't exist. The set is in beta, it WILL change, and nothing is set in stone including its current performance. If it performs the same but flows more smoother and offers a more appealing playstyle to the Crit ATs while still maintaining its strength for Non-Crit ATs then I'm going to push for that change. I'm not a huge fan of the 'So-and-so AT has the best incarnation of a powerset'.
 

[Troo]

Just now, Infinitum said:

Its not a crutch, its your choice, if you use it, use it wisely but you are the one with the keystrokes.

 

There are ways to use it without it messing you up.  

Solo plays different than pylons. Which both play different than teams. There are also varying degrees of player skill and many different levels in the game.

 

The perfect attack chain does not always apply. The perfect T4 max build attack chain definitely does not always apply.

 

I want what you want on some level and for the most part.

 

We should be able to use powers in our builds when not recharging, without penalty for deviating from a predetermined attack chain. Sub-optimal performance is the choice and that's okay.

[Infinitum]

5 minutes ago, Troo said:

Solo plays different than pylons. Which both play different than teams. There are also varying degrees of player skill and many different levels in the game.

 

The perfect attack chain does not always apply. The perfect T4 max build attack chain definitely does not always apply.

 

I want what you want on some level and for the most part.

 

We should be able to use powers in our builds when not recharging, without penalty for deviating from a predetermined attack chain. Sub-optimal performance is the choice and that's okay.

You and I agree on all that, and you really are restating what I have just said in a different way.

 

You realize that?   lol

[Lockpick]

I created a lvl 50 io'ed / incarnated stalker (EM/EA).  I played the new hero arc leveled down and have since played DA street sweeping.  I thought I was going to hate the combo mechanic.  I have enough combo mechanics with DB, StJ, and Staff that I wasn't interested in another combo system.  That being said, I don't hate it.  I can play it and the performance is fine.  I still don't like it that much, but I don't see it being changed either.

 

I'll definitely give it a play through if it hits Live, but if I am going to play a combo mechanic I think I will stick to my 3 StJ stalkers.

[Troo]

14 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

You and I agree on all that, and you really are restating what I have just said in a different way.

 

You realize that?   lol

That's funny and good if I did. Long day.

 

I thought you were saying if we used BS in one particular spot it would be available but if we didn't, too bad.

 

[Myrmidon]

Let the record reflect that Tankers only have the Total Focus/Bonesmasher combo as their sole use of Energy Focus until Level 35.

[Brutal Justice]

3 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

 

It's just 30% of your health, take some risks, live a little.

This is why I want energy transfer to have a full crit and blast 20% of my health!   I don’t want a dumb sustain heal!   I want to hit a guy so hard I almost kill myself!

 

Edited October 28, 2020 by Brutal Justice
Gif

[ScarySai]

I want whiffing ET to play an animation of my character punching itself in the face.

Edited October 28, 2020 by ScarySai