Focused Feedback: Energy Melee Revamp

[Super Atom]

1 hour ago, M3z said:

2 EF stacks should mean ET just deletes your target.

You know when you hit an enemy just right and they rag doll by folding in half? I want that guaranteed for fast ET. true EF effect

[Troo]

On 10/24/2020 at 5:33 AM, Jimmy said:

Stalker Power Order Changes

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1.  Barrage
2.  Energy Punch
3.  Bone Smasher
4.  Assassin's Strike
5.  Build Up
6.  Placate
7.  Power Crash (replaces Stun)
8.  Total Focus (moved from T9)
9.  Energy Transfer (moved from T8)

While I did test the various ATs, this is the only one I really have any AT specific comments on.

 

The powers switching places is minor but did have an impact on existing characters copied over. One character lost Energy Transfer out of their build just due to level 32.

 

The beta Energy Melee feels to me like a very busy set now when compared to live and the old version.

• The old version being more straight forward and simpler allowed more focus on situational tactics and secondary powers. This may just take more time to climate.
• Insta Assassins Strike, a new combo mechanic with three options, possible crit double EF, hidden vs not hidden, build up recharging, etc.
• There is a lot going on. It is a blinding flurry of pom poms and powertrays lighting up.
• Paired with a busy secondary it is a very very busy character. Regeneration is a specific example.
• This busy-ness was one reason I'm not super excited for this vs a reverted EM. Having tested, I still feel this way.
• The combo mechanic is now the feature of the set.

Does Insta Assassin Strike and the Energy Focus powers have to light up the same?

[ScarySai]

1 hour ago, M3z said:

2 EF stacks should mean ET just deletes your target.

Better yet, give me the option to put 100% of my health into a punch that kills my target and my entire team.

[siolfir]

20 hours ago, Naraka said:

Well, if you actually enjoyed building for the Mez moreso than the damage, every guaranteed stun=a pesky target temporarily nullified with the help of OG so it's more of a cumulative effect moreso than an either or choice of Stun and TF... Or it would be if that functionality remains more similar.

 

Having TF pushing out with a faster animation does improve that aspect of the power's purpose but if you're not rocking great rech bonuses to get TF up faster, your going to get less stun potential.

 

I understand that. What i don't understand is random schmucks shouting me down for suggesting to ADD to the current changes since a lot of the feedback seemed aimed at the upper set ups and not much of the niche perspectives. To be brutally honest, I don't have the patience to test anything, just try stuff by doodling with it. From my time with it, I can't juggle targets as neatly and relies more on rolling dice for random stuns from the AoEs which isn't as fun.

 

Another possible avenue is just giving the different ATs different spenders/gainers of Energy Focus. We kind of already see that with Stalkers/Scrappers but Tankers/Brutes get a less specialized version of the spenders. Maybe they could have a higher control version instead? 

Compared to what is currently on Homecoming, your choice was to take Stun - a single target power with a long animation, 20 second recharge, and low damage that most people would not take or use in their attack chains - for a guaranteed 100% stun. If you use Total Focus first, you get a 100% guaranteed stun in a single target power with a shorter animation and more damage that most people would not use in their attack chains (aka Barrage). Slot Barrage for stun using the slots you would've put into Stun, skip Power Crash, and you're slightly ahead on damage as you use Total Focus first, plus you get a -regen effect, a -special effect, a stronger hit on Energy Punch, a faster Bone Smasher, and although using all your charges on Barrage means no fast Energy Transfer, it will still cost less endurance and recharge faster. You lost no capabilities and gained some in exchange for having to use a high damage, 100% guaranteed stun - that is on the same recharge cycle as Stun - first. There is no lost potential to stun, and you admit you are unwilling to even verify this yourself. That is why people are telling you that you are wrong.

 

 

15 hours ago, BrandX said:

It seems the only reason people care about where the -Regen/-Special/More Stun is located, is because they believe they're going to get double ET in that Double Energy Focus all the time.  I'd call the double EF a bonus, not worry about spending it on Barrage or Bone Smasher (if it even goes back to BS).

 

As for the other ATs that don't get double EF, I'd imagine under most circumstances, the idea will be to use the EF for fast ET, not worrying about a boosted Stun.  Now, there may be a reason for a melee to want to use that boosted BS, but it'd like be rare and easily able to sacrifice a fast ET to get it.

Partially yes, but you can also miss with a fast ET and then not be able to use it fast when it recharges on any AT if you use another expender (like, say, Bone Smasher) in between. The idea is to use fast ET with the charge, but it's not just limited to Scrappers and Stalkers that got an extra.

 

In the meantime, having it in Barrage means that it's harder to accidentally spend focus simply by pre-queuing Bone Smasher in your attack chain if/when Energy Transfer misses and/or you get a double focus stack, where putting it in Barrage and Energy Punch and Bone Smasher (as someone suggested) exacerbates the problem by meaning you have to use Whirling Hands, use a pool attack, or wait and do nothing before using Energy Transfer recharges to get rid of the slow animation (because honestly for me it's about avoiding that animation more than the boost in DPS).

[BrandX]

2 minutes ago, siolfir said:

Compared to what is currently on Homecoming, your choice was to take Stun - a single target power with a long animation, 20 second recharge, and low damage that most people would not take or use in their attack chains - for a guaranteed 100% stun. If you use Total Focus first, you get a 100% guaranteed stun in a single target power with a shorter animation and more damage that most people would not use in their attack chains (aka Barrage). Slot Barrage for stun using the slots you would've put into Stun, skip Power Crash, and you're slightly ahead on damage as you use Total Focus first, plus you get a -regen effect, a -special effect, a stronger hit on Energy Punch, a faster Bone Smasher, and although using all your charges on Barrage means no fast Energy Transfer, it will still cost less endurance and recharge faster. You lost no capabilities and gained some in exchange for having to use a high damage, 100% guaranteed stun - that is on the same recharge cycle as Stun - first. There is no lost potential to stun, and you admit you are unwilling to even verify this yourself. That is why people are telling you that you are wrong.

 

 

Partially yes, but you can also miss with a fast ET and then not be able to use it fast when it recharges on any AT if you use another expender (like, say, Bone Smasher) in between. The idea is to use fast ET with the charge, but it's not just limited to Scrappers and Stalkers that got an extra.

 

In the meantime, having it in Barrage means that it's harder to accidentally spend focus simply by pre-queuing Bone Smasher in your attack chain if/when Energy Transfer misses and/or you get a double focus stack, where putting it in Barrage and Energy Punch and Bone Smasher (as someone suggested) exacerbates the problem by meaning you have to use Whirling Hands, use a pool attack, or wait and do nothing before using Energy Transfer recharges to get rid of the slow animation (because honestly for me it's about avoiding that animation more than the boost in DPS).

 

Well, you will be able to avoid the slow animation, if you always maintain TF > ET.  

[siolfir]

Just now, BrandX said:

 

Well, you will be able to avoid the slow animation, if you always maintain TF > ET.  

And never, ever miss with ET. Ever.

[BrandX]

Just now, siolfir said:

And never, ever miss with ET. Ever.

 

If you miss with ET, it doesn't mean you get a slow ET.  Avoiding slow ET is easy to do with what they're giving us.  TF > ET > Whatever needed to get back to TF > ET

[Vanden]

4 minutes ago, siolfir said:

Slot Barrage for stun using the slots you would've put into Stun, skip Power Crash, and you're slightly ahead on damage as you use Total Focus first, plus you get a -regen effect, a -special effect, a stronger hit on Energy Punch, a faster Bone Smasher, and although using all your charges on Barrage means no fast Energy Transfer, it will still cost less endurance and recharge faster. You lost no capabilities and gained some in exchange for having to use a high damage, 100% guaranteed stun - that is on the same recharge cycle as Stun - first. There is no lost potential to stun, and you admit you are unwilling to even verify this yourself.

Not entirely true; Stun is a Mag 3 scale 10 stun, while Focused Barrage is Mag 3 scale 8 stun. Its duration is 20% shorter than Stun was. Also, if you had Stun slotted for stun and Barrage slotted for damage, you're losing out on one of those two things, you can't slot for both equally well; you're either losing out on stun duration, damage, or set bonuses.

[siolfir]

Just now, BrandX said:

 

If you miss with ET, it doesn't mean you get a slow ET.  Avoiding slow ET is easy to do with what they're giving us.  TF > ET > Whatever needed to get back to TF > ET

You realize that this is similar to stating that you could also avoid the slow ET animation currently by never using it?

Technically true, but incredibly obvious and missing the whole point?

[BrandX]

3 minutes ago, siolfir said:

You realize that this is similar to stating that you could also avoid the slow ET animation currently by never using it?

Technically true, but incredibly obvious and missing the whole point?

 

Nah.  You're just assuming you're going to be able to fit 2 ETs into every application of TF.  Which, for the non Scrappers/Stalkers, they may just avoid that, and for the Scrappers/Stalkers, I'm guessing they can do some serious damage without two in a TF cycle.

[siolfir]

Just now, Vanden said:

Not entirely true; Stun is a Mag 3 scale 10 stun, while Focused Barrage is Mag 3 scale 8 stun. Its duration is 20% shorter than Stun was. Also, if you had Stun slotted for stun and Barrage slotted for damage, you're losing out on one of those two things, you can't slot for both equally well; you're either losing out on stun duration, damage, or set bonuses.

The shorter stun effect is likely unnoticeable unless you're sitting there with a stopwatch - I'm also curious if the -special affects stun resistance (if so, then no, they didn't lose duration). 

 

As for already having Barrage slotted for damage... they can substitute in the single target attack that they didn't have slotted before for damage since Barrage unslotted for damage will still do more than Stun and you can get the same set bonuses elsewhere without taking and fully slotting every single target power in the set.

[siolfir]

Just now, BrandX said:

 

Nah.  You're just assuming you're going to be able to fit 2 ETs into every application of TF.  Which, for the non Scrappers/Stalkers, they may just avoid that, and for the Scrappers/Stalkers, I'm guessing they can do some serious damage without two in a TF cycle.

Beta ET has half the recharge of TF. So yes, I am assuming it's going to recharge before the next TF if I use it right afterwards.

[ForeverLaxx]

6 minutes ago, siolfir said:

You realize that this is similar to stating that you could also avoid the slow ET animation currently by never using it?

Technically true, but incredibly obvious and missing the whole point?

It's not even "avoiding" Slow ET anyway. The combined animation time for being forced to use TF first just means you get current Slow ET with a helping of TF's damage on top.

 

And that assumes you never use ET until you TF in the first place. I'm not advocating for this particular change, but they essentially just removed Total Focus from the set entirely and rolled its damage and stun into current ET. That's how it feels to play right now and I hate it.

[BrandX]

Just now, siolfir said:

Beta ET has half the recharge of TF. So yes, I am assuming it's going to recharge before the next TF if I use it right afterwards.

 

True.  However, to even get a second fast ET, you'll have to assume every TF gets a critical.  We know that's not going to happen.  So, you'll either be stuck with a slow ET or have to plan around never having one.

[ScarySai]

Slow ET isn't even a bad attack if you have to fit it in a chain.

[Troo]

@siolfir @Vanden

Increasing the stun duration of EF+Barrage slightly to match Stun makes sense since that is what it's replacing .

Stacking stuns is required for some targets and it would make sense that there is a reasonable window.

 

The numbers may not be exactly dialed in on the EF+Barrage stun duration.

No point in doing that yet if EF+Barrage is going away or the effect is moving to another power.

 

 

[ScarySai]

I doubt it's being moved at this point. It's perfect where it is, and it really couldn't be moved elsewhere without becoming intrusive to attack chains.

[Troo]

38 minutes ago, BrandX said:

 

If you miss with ET, it doesn't mean you get a slow ET.  Avoiding slow ET is easy to do with what they're giving us.  TF > ET > Whatever needed to get back to TF > ET

 There are interesting performance gaps between max builds or everything hitting and in game behavior. Hence testing and Beta.

 

I can tell everyone that Build Up > Assassin's Strike misses from Hide more than it should. That's the boots on the ground. Meanwhile, the numbers say it should be rare.. but that's not the case.

[Bopper]

9 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

Slow ET isn't even a bad attack if you have to fit it in a chain.

That's the beauty of the changes, isn't it? Slow ET was already a top 5 DPA power (not factoring in crits). By cutting the recharge in half, you basically are being given a free power in your rotation...and that power is old school ET. 

 

Throw it the fact TF has its animation shaved (makes it a top 10 DPA attack), as well as the animation shaved of BS, you can fill out your rotation so much better than you used to.

 

In fact, your rotation will be filled entirely with powers that make up the top 30 DPA attacks available to melee sets (before crits). TF>ET(fast)>BS>EP>ET(slow) all top notch attacks used an a fairly simple chain. 

[Troo]

On 10/24/2020 at 5:33 AM, Jimmy said:

 Assassin's Strike

FYI - Assassin's Strike misses more than it should from Hide.

What are the odds that it misses while hidden and after using Build Up. (that's rhetorical) Well, it misses more than that.

[ScarySai]

The general rule not only for this game, but any chance based system - is that the more you really need something to work, the more likely it will defy the law of averages to screw you over.

[BrandX]

35 minutes ago, Troo said:

 There are interesting performance gaps between max builds or everything hitting and in game behavior. Hence testing and Beta.

 

I can tell everyone that Build Up > Assassin's Strike misses from Hide more than it should. That's the boots on the ground. Meanwhile, the numbers say it should be rare.. but that's not the case.

 

I can say, with my first round of testing with EM on Beta.  I lacked Tactics and noticed the difference.  OMG!  Back to putting Tactics into my build.  🙂  Less missing!

[Wavicle]

33 minutes ago, Troo said:

FYI - Assassin's Strike misses more than it should from Hide.

What are the odds that it misses while hidden and after using Build Up. (that's rhetorical) Well, it misses more than that.

How did you determine this?

[Wavicle]

Can someone help me understand what's up with the ingame numbers?

Ingame it looks like Barrage is the best and Bonesmasher the worst DPA on every AT except Stalkers (for whom Energy Punch looks like the best and Barrage the worst).

Is that accurate or am I just not understanding something?

[Bopper]

15 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Can someone help me understand what's up with the ingame numbers?

Ingame it looks like Barrage is the best and Bonesmasher the worst DPA on every AT except Stalkers (for whom Energy Punch looks like the best and Barrage the worst).

Is that accurate or am I just not understanding something?

Barrage info display is bugged. Energy Punch is superior in DPA