Focused Feedback: Energy Melee Revamp

[Vanden]

4 hours ago, Jimmy said:

•  Barrage
  • If used with Energy Focus: 100% chance for stun and applies a weakening (-special and -regen) effect to the target
    • This effect has been moved from Bone Smasher to Barrage

From testing this, Barrage's stun goes from mag 2 to mag 3 when used with focus, but I wasn't able to determine the scale. It's definitely less than scale 10, though. Since the guaranteed stun property of this focus spender is meant to replace Stun (the power) being removed from the set, it should be a mag 3 scale 10 stun when used with Focus, to match Stun's old numbers.

 

Now, I don't like the spender being moved from Bone Smasher to Barrage. It means Barrage is no longer a skippable power for a lot of us. Most of the objections to Bone Smasher being the spender were that it couldn't be used as filler when Focus was up and you didn't want to spend it on Bone Smasher. But if all we're after is filler, Barrage is just a better filler power than Bone Smasher, with its shorter recharge and longer activation.

 

[Bug Report] Total Focus is only playing its hit FX on a hit about half the time.

Edited October 31, 2020 by Vanden

[Bopper]

2 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

That's not how it reads, and according to how it reads should be notified as a bug: This power only crits for 28% additional damage, but when it crits, it will not only avoid the self-damage, but will actually heals you for 10% of your base Max HP

So it does not hurt you, and ALSO should heal you according to the text.

"So it does not hurt you, and ALSO should heal you according to the text".  Correct, that is what it does when you get a successful critical hit. It's also what I said in my previous post. If it helps, perhaps you should look up the details for all of Energy Transfer's effects (or other powers that you might have questions on). Go to https://coh.tips/powers/beta/, or go directly to the part that talks about Energy Transfer at https://coh.tips/powers/beta/redirects/energy-melee/, 

[Troo]

1 hour ago, Keen said:

I think I understand why this had to be done (Tankers?), but boy do I loathe Barrage's animation. No longer a skippable power for me 😞 

  Bone Smasher (BS) could already stun fairly well and kept getting stuck as 'don't touch' if someone really wanted to use the fast Energy Transfer (fET).

 

I had proposed totally removing the boosted stun when it was in BS. Moving it to Barrage allows it to be skipped and is effectively the same (for all but Tankers).

 

In other news

The set is MUCH improved with the cleaned up animation times and freeing up BS.

It now is starting to feel a bit like a Utility set where we can pick some aspects or all. If we pick them all it's a lot to manage (maybe just while learning).

• A la Dark Armour. Where's a blue when you need one? vs Do we really need all those toggles?

 

I am still unconvinced these or similar changes could not have simply been made without the combo mechanic.

• Playing a Stalker with a busy secondary.. there is potentially just a lot going on. ATO procs, quick Assassins Strike, new 3 tree combo mechanic, plus managing a needy secondary on top of long recharge powers outside EM.
• Troo had neither Barrage nor Total Focus in the build. Over time I had even dropped Stun because I could get disorient elsewhere in the set (+ the Fear from AS).
• What's on Beta is a different powerset.
• It is far from awful.

[Bopper]

14 minutes ago, Vanden said:

From testing this, Barrage's stun goes from mag 2 to mag 3 when used with focus, but I wasn't able to determine the scale. It's definitely less than scale 10, though. Since the guaranteed stun property of this focus spender is meant to replace Stun (the power) being removed from the set, it should be a mag 3 scale 10 stun when used with Focus, to match Stun's old numbers.

Scale 6, the same scale Barrage normally has. The only difference is instead of a 10% chance to stun, releasing energy will now grant you 100% chance to stun, but it's still the same stun Barrage currently performs. Also, Bone Smasher was the same way, it executed the same stun it always had, not the old Stun. In Bone Smasher, I believe it was Scale 8

[Tsuko]

1 minute ago, Bopper said:

Scale 6, the same scale Barrage normally has. The only difference is instead of a 10% chance to stun, releasing energy will now grant you 100% chance to stun, but it's still the same stun Barrage currently performs. Also, Bone Smasher was the same way, it executed the same stun it always had, not the old Stun. In Bone Smasher, I believe it was Scale 8

The Bopper is everywhere.

[Infinitum]

22 minutes ago, Vanden said:

From testing this, Barrage's stun goes from mag 2 to mag 3 when used with focus, but I wasn't able to determine the scale. It's definitely less than scale 10, though. Since the guaranteed stun property of this focus spender is meant to replace Stun (the power) being removed from the set, it should be a mag 3 scale 10 stun when used with Focus, to match Stun's old numbers.

 

Now, I don't like the spender being moved from Bone Smasher to Barrage. It means Barrage is no longer a skippable power for a lot of us. Most of the objections to Bone Smasher being the spender were that it couldn't be used as filler when Focus was up and you didn't want to spend it on Barrage. But if all we're after is filler, Barrage is just a better filler power than Bone Smasher, with its shorter recharge and longer activation.

 

[Bug Report] Total Focus is only playing its hit FX on a hit about half the time.

The scrapper stalker sets still stun well - and I didn't even take BS - and still wont because I think EP is the better power for filler.

 

But, Stalker scrapper will take down anything before the loss of a stun power would be noticed - and keep in mind it still has decent stuns.

 

They also have double focus from TF crit and if I had any complaint it was tankers felt slightly behind - but with barrage getting the focus - I think its a good measure to give tankers a little extra that was slightly missing. 

 

Tankers are like a melee controller anyway, while Scrappers and stalkers are the dps.

 

The change fits perfectly - and if you needed any more stun its time to bring a controller anyway.

Edited October 31, 2020 by Infinitum

[Vanden]

5 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Scale 6, the same scale Barrage normally has. The only difference is instead of a 10% chance to stun, releasing energy will now grant you 100% chance to stun, but it's still the same stun Barrage currently performs. Also, Bone Smasher was the same way, it executed the same stun it always had, not the old Stun. In Bone Smasher, I believe it was Scale 8

I tested it, it's definitely mag 3 with focus now, since it can stun lieutenants. And it's definitely higher than scale 6. I timed the duration at level 21 on a lieutenant; scale 6 stun should be 6, times the Brute modifier for stun (0.8), times the bonus for level (1.2 at 21) = 5.76s, but it's stunning lieutenants for around 8 seconds. (No enhancements were used)

Edited October 31, 2020 by Vanden

[DreadShinobi]

4 hours ago, Jimmy said:

 

 

Power Changes

•  Barrage
  • If used with Energy Focus: 100% chance for stun and applies a weakening (-special and -regen) effect to the target
    • This effect has been moved from Bone Smasher to Barrage
•  Energy Punch
  • Recharge increased from 4s to 5s
  • End cost increased from 5.2 to 6.032
  • Damage increased from scale 1 to scale 1.16
•  Bone Smasher
  • Cast time reduced from 1.5s to 1.27s
  • No longer consumes Energy Focus, allowing it to be more freely used in attack chains
    • This effect has been moved to Barrage
•  Power Crash (Replaces Stun)
  • Power Crash is now a minor cone that can hit up to 5 targets (10 for Tankers)
  • No longer takes melee damage sets, now takes PBAoE damage sets (any existing enhancements will remain slotted until the character respecs)
  • If used with Energy Focus: Target cap increased to 10 targets (16 for Tankers)
  • If you previously had Stun in your build, you'll now have Power Crash
  • Stalkers only:
    • This power has a 16s recharge (instead of a 9s recharge for other ATs), with proportional damage and endurance cost increases per the standard damage formulas
      • Lowered recharge from 18s to 16s
    • As Stalkers do not have Whirling Hands, they rely entirely on Power Crash for AoE damage
  • Fixed some timing issues
  • Fixed a typo in the description
•  Whirling Hands
  •  Damage increased from scale 1 to scale 1.1819 (it was slightly below what the damage formula dictated)
•  Total Focus 
  • Cast time reduced from 3.3 seconds to 2.53 seconds
  • Total Focus has a 100% chance to grant Energy Focus (even if power misses)
  •  Energy Focus
    • Energy Focus is consumed when casting certain Energy Melee powers in order to provide bonus effects (Energy Focus is not consumed if the power misses)
    • Energy Focus expires after 15 seconds
  • Stalkers / Scrappers only:
    • This power only crits for 28% additional damage, but when it crits, it will also generate a backup Energy Store that will re-activate Energy Focus after the current Energy Focus is used or expires (essentially it provides two stacks of Energy Focus)
  • Fixed timing issues while flying
  • Fixed an animation issue experienced by female characters while flying
•  Energy Transfer
  • Energy Transfer self damage is now 10% of base max HP for all ATs, and no longer costs any endurance
  • Damage is now 100% energy
  • Recharge lowered from 20s to 10s
  • If used with Energy Focus: Cast time reduced from 2.67s to 1.0s
  • Stalkers / Scrappers only:
    • This power only crits for 28% additional damage, but when it crits, it will not only avoid the self-damage, but will actually heals you for 10% of your base Max HP
      • Now deals crit damage at the same level as Total Focus (28%)
    • Crit rate reduced from 20% down to 10% (the standard level)
  • Fixed various vfx and timing issues with the fast version

 

Thank you and well done. Happy and ready for the live server rollout.

[Vanden]

10 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

The scrapper stalker sets still stun well - and I didn't even take BS - and still wont because I think EP is the better power for filler.

 

But, Stalker scrapper will take down anything before the loss of a stun power would be noticed - and keep in mind it still has decent stuns.

 

They also have double focus from TF crit and if I had any complaint it was tankers felt slightly behind - but with barrage getting the focus - I think its a good measure to give tankers a little extra that was slightly missing. 

 

Tankers are like a melee controller anyway, while Scrappers and stalkers are the dps.

 

The change fits perfectly - and if you needed any more stun its time to bring a controller anyway.

You can say that players won't need the stun all day, but it doesn't change the fact that the changes are taking the guaranteed stun out of the set and away from players. The framework is already in place to allow the set and players who want it to keep the effect, so there's no reason not to put it in there.

Edited October 31, 2020 by Vanden

[Bopper]

2 hours ago, Vanden said:

I tested it, it's definitely mag 3 with focus now, since it can stun lieutenants. And it's definitely higher than scale 6. I timed the duration at level 21 on a lieutenant; scale 6 stun should be 6, times the Brute modifier for stun (0.8), times the bonus for level (1.2 at 21) = 5.76s, but it's stunning lieutenants for around 8 seconds. (No enhancements were used)

You're right, it must have been a change that wasn't on the previous set of power info I had. Before, they used a Global Chance Mod to boost the chance for a buff (they still use it actually, but it's not doing anything now).

 

Looking at it now, it is a 10% chance for a  Mag 2 Scale 6 stun when there is no Energy Focus. It becomes a Mag 3 Scale 8 stun when there is Energy Focus (which is the same as it was on Bone Smasher)

Edited October 31, 2020 by Bopper

[csr]

4 hours ago, Jimmy said:

Power Changes

•  Barrage
  • If used with Energy Focus: 100% chance for stun and applies a weakening (-special and -regen) effect to the target
    • This effect has been moved from Bone Smasher to Barrage
•  Energy Punch
  • Recharge increased from 4s to 5s
  • End cost increased from 5.2 to 6.032
  • Damage increased from scale 1 to scale 1.16
•  Bone Smasher
  • Cast time reduced from 1.5s to 1.27s
  • No longer consumes Energy Focus, allowing it to be more freely used in attack chains
    • This effect has been moved to Barrage

Since it spends Energy Focus, would it be grossly over-powered to simply put the Chance to Stun boost and -Special/-Regen on all three of these powers?  Stacking the effects with Stalkers and Scrappers is the only concern I see, and there are some ways around that with non-stacking effects (though it might be too messy to be worth the effort).

 

It would be nice not to have to pick one of the powers specifically to get the benefit.

[Infinitum]

17 minutes ago, Vanden said:

You can say that players won't need the stun all day, but it doesn't change the fact that the changes are taking the guaranteed stun out of the set and away from players. The framework is already in place to allow the set and players who want it to keep the effect, so there's no reason not to put it in there.

Because it wouldnt be effective anyway.

 

If you want solid control thats what controllers do.

 

So either you give up the dmg of you go with the stacking stuns which is reliable as is.

 

It shouldnt have both.

 

I would be irritated if I lost guaranteed dmg for a guaranteed stun the set doesnt need.

[ScarySai]

49 minutes ago, Vanden said:

Since the guaranteed stun property of this focus spender is meant to replace Stun (the power) being removed from the set, it should be a mag 3 scale 10 stun when used with Focus, to match Stun's old numbers.

 

 

I'm pretty sure the -special is the highlight of the focus interaction, as I've said to you many times now, the stuns aren't as important.

 

If I can permastun a +4 AV without it's triangles up as a stalker, I really don't see the complaint here. 

 

Like, I get it - cottage rule, I don't like core abilities being changed much either, but there's a tiny detail you seem to be missing here.

 

STUN WAS A GARBAGE POWER.

 

 

Edited October 31, 2020 by ScarySai

[Vanden]

1 minute ago, ScarySai said:

If I can permastun a +4 AV without it's triangles up as a stalker, I really don't see the complaint here.

It's not up to you what other players will find valuable in a set.

 

4 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

I would be irritated if I lost guaranteed dmg for a guaranteed stun the set doesnt need.

And you think it's impossible there's a player out there who could be irritated that the set is losing a guaranteed stun for damage they think it didn't need?

[Keen]

39 minutes ago, Troo said:

Bone Smasher (BS) could already stun fairly well and kept getting stuck as 'don't touch' if someone really wanted to use the fast Energy Transfer (fET).

I was referring to the debuffs though, I don't care much about the stun. Originally I'd skip Barrage like the plague, but all my Stalkers are big target killers and the more debuffs the better, so now I "have" to take Barrage. That is purely a cosmetic issue though, I just dislike Barrage's animation is all.

Edited October 31, 2020 by Keen

[Infinitum]

1 minute ago, Vanden said:

It's not up to you what other players will find valuable in a set.

No its up to the numbers, and the numbers back up what I'm saying.

 

It still stuns reliable, and kills faster.

[ScarySai]

3 minutes ago, Vanden said:

It's not up to you what other players will find valuable in a set.

TF>BS by itself would be a guaranteed stun on everything below an AV by itself 90% of the time, that's before any other attack comes into play. By comparing the last toolkit to the current, I can actually make a pretty objective comparison in terms of value, so yes - yes I can.

 

What's next, are you going to try and convince me that Confront is a valuable power?

 

Kindly stop trying to sabotage a great thing here, thanks.

Edited October 31, 2020 by ScarySai

[Vanden]

Just now, Infinitum said:

No its up to the numbers, and the numbers back up what I'm saying.

 

It still stuns reliable, and kills faster.

The only numbers I've seen you post are pylon times.

[Vanden]

Just now, ScarySai said:

TF>BS by itself would be a guaranteed stun on everything below an AV by itself 90% of the time

*60% of the time, not considering Elite Bosses or enemies with stun protection.

[ScarySai]

It's still high, and that's before any other attacks come into play. 

 

Log in beta right now and I will prove you wrong in like five minutes, since you're so convinced this will be a problem.

[Infinitum]

4 minutes ago, Vanden said:

The only numbers I've seen you post are pylon times.

Then you have missed a lot of what I have posted about.

[Vanden]

1 minute ago, ScarySai said:

Log in beta right now and I will prove you wrong in like five minutes, since you're so convinced this will be a problem.

You couldn't possibly prove me wrong, since my point is that the guaranteed boss stun of the set has been nerfed, and that is indisputable. Your contention that it doesn't matter is entirely subjective.

[Infinitum]

1 minute ago, Vanden said:

You couldn't possibly prove me wrong, since my point is that the guaranteed boss stun of the set has been nerfed, and that is indisputable. Your contention that it doesn't matter is entirely subjective.

If You believe that why not let Sai demonstrate.

[ScarySai]

Oh no, you lost your 100% chance to stun a boss, and gained one of the most powerful single attacks in the game, another AoE, animation time cuts on your filler and retained the relatively high chance to stun on all of the above. What a problem.

 

Stun wasn't even a popular pick for the few people who still played energy before this. This is not a hill you want to die on.

 

I don't want to turn this into a flame war, either put your money where your mouth is and let me prove you wrong - lose this argument gracefully, or just be ignored.

 

Times like this I wish the no-video rule wasn't in effect.

Edited October 31, 2020 by ScarySai

[Vanden]

Why are you pushing back so hard on this? Seriously, I want to know. What is it about the proposal that Barrage or Bone Smasher, when used with focus, go from mag 3 scale 8 stun to mag 3 scale 10 stun, that compels you to respond with typical dick-swinging "1v1 me, bro" forum attitude? If you truly think it's a non-issue you can just say so and move on, there's no call for this level of hostility to the proposal.