Focused Feedback: Other Powers Changes

[Orohu]

Just coming in here to give my two cents, I'm not on board with the changes to Shinobi-Iri and the way it interacts with other movement powers, as well.

[Purrfekshawn]

Why revert Eagle's Claw power changes? l have some toons with MA powerset those REILLY lack AoE's, so was REILLY look forward to this improvement. Ayway most melee powerses have at least 1 Cone AoE, and 1 Sphere PBAoE. So EC's improvement would bring that Set inline with others. It would still prefer Single Target damage more though. Why revert after all?!

[Blackfeather]

37 minutes ago, Purrfekshawn said:

Why revert Eagle's Claw power changes? l have some toons with MA powerset those REILLY lack AoE's, so was REILLY look forward to this improvement. Ayway most melee powerses have at least 1 Cone AoE, and 1 Sphere PBAoE. So EC's improvement would bring that Set inline with others. It would still prefer Single Target damage more though. Why revert after all?!

On 10/25/2020 at 2:08 AM, TC said:

I typically agree with most of the team's balance changes and in the case of the newest patch, I'm happy for almost every change. Especially the Energy Melee changes, they take the spirit of the current set and add power that feels good to use (seemingly).

 

But... Eagle's Claw as a cone...? The power doesn't really match up like this thematically or aesthetically and changing the IO set type is going to wreak Havoc with MA builds. Eagle's Claw is the go-to power to slot Hecatomb for MA and Dragon's Tail is the go-to for Armageddon. It's not a huge deal, I just don't really get why the change is being made. I agree that MA could use a bit of a buff and I also agree that giving that buff to Eagle's Claw is a good move, as for a T9 power it does lack some oomf compared to others. But making it a cone? MA is not one of those melee sets that lacks good AoE, Dragon's Tail is a nice PBAoE power. Quick cast, good damage. I really just don't see why Eagle's Claw was made a cone. If I'm being completely honest it seems a bit uninspired, it's just making the set feel more like Katana or NB.

 

 

EDIT: Thank you for listening 🙂

On 10/25/2020 at 5:34 AM, DreadShinobi said:

Echoing what others have said about EC, the animation absolutely does not match up with being a cone. 

Why was ToF animation time increased?

 

 

 

Accolade recharge adjustment literally nerfs every single one of my characters that have enough recharge to put Geas/Demonic on a 7-8 min cooldown. Much disappointment here.

On 10/25/2020 at 7:37 AM, DarionLeonidas said:

I see a real problem with this as it further weakens Scrappers, especially as compared to Stalkers.

With this change, my main, a Level 50 Scrapper, loses his Alpha Strike Single Target to a Cone; even if it does the same amount of damage, re-classifying it as a PBAoE means that, while my main is able to slot Hecatomb here and Armageddon in Dragon's Tail, any other Scrapper I get to 50 will only have Armageddon in one or the other.

That's my practical objection to another loss of potential to Scrappers; Stalkers have been improved to the point where Scrappers are already taking a backseat, and MA Stalkers will still be able to slot Hecatomb and Armageddon, making Stalkers (once again) that much better and Scrappers that much weaker.

And promising that my character who already has it won't be changed isn't the point; I'm not one of those "I got mine, screw everybody else" people, and I have more Scrappers in the pipeline.

At this point, my only option is to spend everything on Buying Hecatombs and power-level my nascent Scrappers to 50.

In conclusion: Eagle's Claw is not broken, Please do not "fix" it.

Please don't do this.

On 10/25/2020 at 3:42 PM, Saikochoro said:

My question about tooltip values aside.  I transferred my MA/SR from the live server to the beta and did some minor testing. I appreciate the thought behind changing eagles claw to a cone and that is in line with many wanting more AoE for MA.  I did get multiple targets in several times, but rarely more than 2.
 

Im in a minority in that I wanted to double down on the single target nature of MA rather than buff its AoE. I would honestly much rather have them buff the damage of eagles claw a fair amount than to turn it into the cone. The main problem with it is that it doesn’t do enough damage for its animation time to warrant use in the best attack chains.  I want eagles claw to hit hard enough that you would be crazy not to take and use it in your normal rotations. 
 

That said, I am happy to take this change too even if it is not the route I would prefer. 

On 10/25/2020 at 7:01 PM, UpandAtom said:

I think that adding some extra AoE into MA might've could've been been a change to, say, Crane Kick? Since it's so totally samey to Cobra Strike aside for one stuns and the other KBs. Adding it onto EC seems a weird choice. Keeping the aoe potential loaded in the back?

I was looking forward to the change to Eagles Claw myself, but discussion about the change was definitely a bit split. Powerhouse also said this was one of the changes that wasn't really set in stone - I imagine they'll look into Martial Arts another time.

[sessa]

On 10/24/2020 at 2:43 PM, Jimmy said:

Movement Buffs

• The following travel powers will suppress Primary/Secondary equivalent power travel buffs:
  •  Pool > Leaping > Combat Jumping
  •  Pool > Leaping > Super Jump
  •  Pool > Force of Will > Mighty Leap
  •  Pool > Speed > Super Speed
  •  Pool > Experimentation > Speed of Sound
  •  Prestige Travel > Ninja Run
  •  Prestige Travel > Beast Run
• Primary/Secondary powers impacted by this:
  •  Scrapper Defence > Ninjitsu > Shinobi-Iri
  •  Sentinel Defence > Ninjitsu > Shinobi-Iri
  •  Blaster Support > Ninja Training > Shinobi-Iri
  •  Blaster Support > Tactical Arrow > Gymnast

I must say I don't really like this change on my ta. I play with SJ and gymnastic on just to get that fun IR movement, now on beta it feels slow and kinda boring.

It also affects PvP play styles some since it was a key reason to play a TA in PvP would there be possible to have them stack just in PvP?

Edited November 1, 2020 by Sessa

[Lockpick]

Making changes for only PVP would seriously rile up some players.  Why would it be good for PVP and not PVE?

 

Movement Buffs

On the changes as a whole I am not sure what the issue is.  We have capped movement, so why does stacking matter?  You will never go faster than the cap.  I never understood the rationale to not allow CJ and SJ to work at the same time.  I think Ninja Run, Shinobi, CJ, SJ, etc. should all be able to be toggled on at the same time and they should stack.  What is the rationale for not allowing it to stack?  It would be nice if someone could provide an explanation.

[BrandX]

1 hour ago, Purrfekshawn said:

Why revert Eagle's Claw power changes? l have some toons with MA powerset those REILLY lack AoE's, so was REILLY look forward to this improvement. Ayway most melee powerses have at least 1 Cone AoE, and 1 Sphere PBAoE. So EC's improvement would bring that Set inline with others. It would still prefer Single Target damage more though. Why revert after all?!

 

There was never a reason or a need to do that though.  With that line of thinking, we may as well be saying, all the melee sets should have a range attack, because plenty of them do.

[WindDemon21]

Would make more sense to have Eagle's claw do splash damage kinda like stj aoe.

[Moonlighter]

4 hours ago, Lockpick said:

 

This is intended.  They nerfed being able to stack movement powers in the latest patch.  I'm not clear why and think they should actually allow all of them to stack, but this was an intended change.

 

Movement Buffs

• The following travel powers will suppress Primary/Secondary equivalent power travel buffs:
  •  Pool > Leaping > Combat Jumping
  •  Pool > Leaping > Super Jump
  •  Pool > Force of Will > Mighty Leap
  •  Pool > Speed > Super Speed
  •  Pool > Experimentation > Speed of Sound
  •  Prestige Travel > Ninja Run
  •  Prestige Travel > Beast Run
• Primary/Secondary powers impacted by this:
  •  Scrapper Defence > Ninjitsu > Shinobi-Iri
  •  Sentinel Defence > Ninjitsu > Shinobi-Iri
  •  Blaster Support > Ninja Training > Shinobi-Iri
  •  Blaster Support > Tactical Arrow > Gymnastics

 

 

No. No no no no. No. Seriously my main is MA/Nin. I use Ninja Run as my travel power because I love the animation and I leveled and incarnated and slotted out the character *because* I could use Ninja Run as my travel power despite /Ninja being lackluster.

 

No.

 

 

Edited November 1, 2020 by Moonlighter

[Moonlighter]

I liked the splash damage in Eagle's Claw and support that change, but it is also not a big issue to revert it.

 

[BrandX]

47 minutes ago, Moonlighter said:

 

No. No no no no. No. Seriously my main is MA/Nin. I use Ninja Run as my travel power because I love the animation and I leveled and incarnated and slotted out the character *because* I could use Ninja Run as my travel power despite /Ninja being lackluster.

 

No.

 

 

 

Exactly!  And being able to use Ninja Run as a travel power, with the weapon sets (love Ninja Run with Dual Pistols) it was one little benefit that had no real impact on anything.  Terrible to see they think it needs to go.  I just saw it as one of the little pluses of the set.

 

Like SR or ElecA getting +SPD passives

[WindDemon21]

58 minutes ago, BrandX said:

 

Exactly!  And being able to use Ninja Run as a travel power, with the weapon sets (love Ninja Run with Dual Pistols) it was one little benefit that had no real impact on anything.  Terrible to see they think it needs to go.  I just saw it as one of the little pluses of the set.

 

Like SR or ElecA getting +SPD passives

EXACTLY, this change does NOT need to happen. It's a plus of the set, and in no way overpowers anything.

[Blackfeather]

Eagle's Claw still has the dust cloud animation attached to it - could that be reverted to the original animation now that it's no longer a cone?

[ForeverLaxx]

I'm throwing my hat into the ring of "don't like the movement change", like other posters here. It just seems like change for the sake of change, slowing people down who were already slower than players with a "real" travel power. Not to mention it ruins some of the RP/Character theme/Identity of certain character builds. I liked that my Nin Sentinel didn't need a "real" Travel because of Ninja Run. He's still slower for crossing entire zones compared to someone with SS + CJ/SJ, so what's the reason these powers no longer stack? Because they "were never supposed to"? That seems like a weak reasoning to nerf what's effectively already unpowered to me.

 

If that change goes through, and there's no way we're getting it reverted, then I say the powers that used to be stacked should be buffed to compensate in order to retain that same feel, at the very least. I'd prefer the powers go back to stacking due to animations being part of the concept most of the time, but I'll take the powers getting buffed as recompense instead if no amount of people being upset is going to do any good.

[Mezmera]

I bet they're coming out with the Utility Belt Origin Pool and don't want that travel power getting outshined by a power that it costs nothing to get.  So they're probably going to leave the better coinciding movement ability in that as a reason to take Utility Belt and that's why the nerf to the other travels.  

[summers]

These movement changes seem like a solution in need of a problem?

[BrandX]

4 hours ago, Mezmera said:

I bet they're coming out with the Utility Belt Origin Pool and don't want that travel power getting outshined by a power that it costs nothing to get.  So they're probably going to leave the better coinciding movement ability in that as a reason to take Utility Belt and that's why the nerf to the other travels.  

 

Seeing as how it only effects Ninjitsu on Scrappers and Sentinels, I don't see how it's outshined.

[nihilii]

I'm sad to lose cone Eagle's Claw, it made MA a truly top tier set. But it's undeniable people had good arguments against it too.

[Carnifax]

22 hours ago, Lockpick said:

 

This is intended.  They nerfed being able to stack movement powers in the latest patch.  I'm not clear why and think they should actually allow all of them to stack, but this was an intended change.

 

Movement Buffs

• The following travel powers will suppress Primary/Secondary equivalent power travel buffs:
  •  Pool > Leaping > Combat Jumping
  •  Pool > Leaping > Super Jump
  •  Pool > Force of Will > Mighty Leap
  •  Pool > Speed > Super Speed
  •  Pool > Experimentation > Speed of Sound
  •  Prestige Travel > Ninja Run
  •  Prestige Travel > Beast Run
• Primary/Secondary powers impacted by this:
  •  Scrapper Defence > Ninjitsu > Shinobi-Iri
  •  Sentinel Defence > Ninjitsu > Shinobi-Iri
  •  Blaster Support > Ninja Training > Shinobi-Iri
  •  Blaster Support > Tactical Arrow > Gymnastics

 

Wait, so my SS / Tactical Arrow character is now back to getting stopped by every slightly too tall fence and wall????

 

Why would you do this?

[BrandX]

I already can't use Combat Jumping with Ninja Run, which was always kinda meh to me, let's not do this to the Primary/Secondary powers too!

[retiarius]

9 hours ago, summers said:

These movement changes seem like a solution in need of a problem?

Changes for the sake of changes.

 

If change is necessary, I'd opt for a more pressing need - like a complete overhaul and re-design of the cumbersome  and user-unfriendly respec process  - it would a very welcome change to have the respec process be such that one looked forward to doing it, and enjoyed the process when interacting with the UI, as opposed to something to avoid if at all possible.

[DreadShinobi]

5 hours ago, nihilii said:

I'm sad to lose cone Eagle's Claw, it made MA a truly top tier set. But it's undeniable people had good arguments against it too.

I feel like there are other changes that could benefit MA.

 

Similar to what was done with EC, Crane Kick seems to make more sense as a narrow cone, think 10-19 degrees 10 ft range, similar to Golden Dragonfly. I always thought if I crane kick someone and there is a guy standing directly behind him, both should be crane kicked, whether that is your leg hitting the second guy or the force of the crane kick knocking the 1st guy into the second guy for them to both go flying. Crane Kick also needs differentiation from Cobra Strike. 

 

An animation time reduction of EC would be swell. 

 

Possibly reaching into Martial Assault and porting over Reach for the Limit or Burst of Speed could enhance some uniqueness for Martial Arts. Though I don't know how the latter would be fit in.

 

But it would be really nice if they looked at Fiery Melee too....

 

 

Edited November 2, 2020 by DreadShinobi

[TorrentYed]

I'd like to chime in with my displeasure in regards to the Shinobi-Iri change as well, and to echo a lot of what has been said.

 

This change kills a lot of flavor, both in terms of playstyle and aesthetic.

 

By pairing Shinobi-Iri with Ninja Run or Beast Run, combined with some tailored slotting, we were able to realize the character fantasy of having that speedster ninja without being locked to the standard run animation just, you know, sped up. We could have the monstrous and beastly minded terror barreling through the Etoiles. And though it might mean sacrificing set bonuses to do it, we could keep up with the other speedsters while being true to our concepts.

 

A whole lot could be said about movement animation cycles available to characters in general (Walk, looking at you), but to keep it on point to the suggested changes in this thread: people have invested various resources, time, influence, creative energy into. With this change all of this is negated, in a game that is all about that character fantasy, about spending time deliberating between costume pieces, about crafting a fun biography, about choosing different powers and the ways those powers look to make fun, unique individuals.

 

Hamstringing so many of those individuals with this change like this feels like a mistake.

[Indystruck]

I 100% do not see how the straight kick animation for Crane Kick makes more sense as an AoE than the wonderful Kamen Kick animation for Eagle's Claw does.

[WindDemon21]

4 hours ago, BrandX said:

I already can't use Combat Jumping with Ninja Run, which was always kinda meh to me, let's not do this to the Primary/Secondary powers too!

Exactly! I would go the opposite way and say they need to let MORE stack, especially cj and nr.

[Galaxy Brain]

On 10/31/2020 at 12:27 PM, Captain Powerhouse said:

Quickness is a relatively weaker passive buff more similar to Swift. 

 

Run speed buff in gymnastic should also not be subject to the stacking restriction, since it's a copy or the small Quickness speed buff. 

 

Shinobi is a full copy of Ninja Run.

 

Since this seems super-specific to Ninja sets then, it just seems like an odd line in the sand. At the very least, given it is specific to Ninja, would it be possible to implement a sort of "the stronger movement buff stays" sort of deal instead of just one overriding the other?