Focused Feedback: Travel Updates: Base Teleportation, Long Range Teleporter Accolade, Special TP Powers

[QuiJon]

3 hours ago, Troo said:

Is it because portals are not in combat areas? (apologies, I have not read all the pages)

It has been implied that there is an exploit beyond just using it to avoid an unwanted death.

Edited October 26, 2020 by QuiJon

[Blackbird71]

8 hours ago, Number Six said:

@srmalloy It's actually kind of backwards from that. Fold space and the LRT accolade came first during development, which led to a general revamp of the various teleportation powers, which led to discussions of "I guess we should finally fix enterbasefrompasscode now that the recharges on P2W/day job powers are getting reduced", which led to the creation of the base portal power* since it's something I had wanted to do whenever the command was patched. Somewhere in the middle of all that, we got some additional information about things related to the systemwide improvements to input validation in the travel/portal UI that made the whole thing more urgent.

 

That all happened in maybe the very last week before it went to open beta. So the design you're seeing today is definitely subject to change and may not be the final design.

 

* which let to several engine updates to support that, but that's a whole other rabbit hole

If I'm understanding this correctly, it sounds like removing/"fixing" enterbasefrompasscode was included in this update as an afterthought, not as a driving force to the teleport changes.  From this explanation, it seems like it was very much a "now is as good a time to get around to it as any" change.

If that's the case, can we put to bed all arguments that this change was urgently needed to fix some phantom exploit that keeps getting touted as a critical reason for this command to be changed?

[DoctorDitko]

There is probably more than one reason for every change they are intending to make. Doesn't mean anyone is not dealing in good faith.

 

I'm sure they were aware this change would affect PVP. It seems their other reasons were compelling enough to proceed.

Let's wait for the finished release, and the exploit notes, before we draw conclusions.

 

OT, I think the tiny, summonable base portal is adorable!

[dtj714]

By the way, if LRTP is pointless and a “waste”, then how is the accolade power any less so?  You’re going to do all those unlocks so you can get to a handful of zones that you can easily get to through the plethora of other travel methods already available?  Instead of making something useful we just leave it useless (and harder to get) but give it to everyone? Makes no sense...

[DoctorDitko]

For most of my characters (ie, not the professional Teleporters), the LRTP Accolade is going to be the "Go to Talos Central Station" power.

 

Since they moved the landing spots, it is turning out to be much more useful than the old Pool power. And the opportunity cost is nil.

[Jimmy]

14 minutes ago, dtj714 said:

By the way, if LRTP is pointless and a “waste”, then how is the accolade power any less so?  You’re going to do all those unlocks so you can get to a handful of zones that you can easily get to through the plethora of other travel methods already available?  Instead of making something useful we just leave it useless (and harder to get) but give it to everyone? Makes no sense...

Without completely changing what the power is, the only ways we can make LRT more useful are:

• Adding more zones (we did this, and may add more in the future after some UI work to not make the long list unwieldly)
• Reducing the activation time (we did this too)
• Reducing the cooldown time (we may do this in the future)

Even with all of those changes, it still wouldn't be worth the opportunity cost of a power pick (especially one that required two subsequent picks) due to how easy travel in the game is.

 

On the other hand, we didn't want to remove LRT from the game entirely for those who liked it - which is why we now have the unlockable version. It's not meant to be amazing, it's meant to just be a nice little bonus that you get for the exploration badges (along with the XP and merits you already get!), and it doesn't have the opportunity cost the old one had.

[Blackbird71]

26 minutes ago, DoctorDitko said:

There is probably more than one reason for every change they are intending to make. Doesn't mean anyone is not dealing in good faith.

 

I'm sure they were aware this change would affect PVP. It seems their other reasons were compelling enough to proceed.

Let's wait for the finished release, and the exploit notes, before we draw conclusions.

I'm just referring to a number of players here who have made the claim that this change had nothing to do with PvP, and was urgently needed to solve an exploit that no one has been able to name or describe.  The comment from Number Six indicates that there was no such urgency or immediate need.  Maybe there is an exploit, but it does not appear to have been considered significant enough to drive urgency on this change.

[Jimmy]

10 hours ago, CrudeVileTerror said:

So, with the initial feedback that's hit, are the Devs considering anything particular for the next iteration of these changes yet?

Any elaborations on some of the decisions that have been made up to this point?

We're reading the feedback but aren't wanting to rush anything and are pretty busy during the week. Probably won't have another set of changes until the weekend at the earliest.

[AboveTheChemist]

16 minutes ago, DoctorDitko said:

For most of my characters (ie, not the professional Teleporters), the LRTP Accolade is going to be the "Go to Talos Central Station" power.

I have not done much testing on Beta but this is how I think it'll work out for me as well. Since I heard the slash command was going away, I've avoided using it in all but the most dire situations, and my general go-to is Ouro > Talos > Destination. So I think the LRTP to Talos will supplement this nicely. I'll admit to being a bit old-fashioned though in that I like mixing in tradtional travel (run/flight/jump) with my teleports, and I eschew the P2W teleports.

[DoctorDitko]

This drops you off even closer than Ouro does. It's very handy.

[Grouchybeast]

33 minutes ago, dtj714 said:

By the way, if LRTP is pointless and a “waste”, then how is the accolade power any less so?  You’re going to do all those unlocks so you can get to a handful of zones that you can easily get to through the plethora of other travel methods already available?  Instead of making something useful we just leave it useless (and harder to get) but give it to everyone? Makes no sense...

A lot of the accolade powers are like that, though.  They might be nice to pick up 'for free', but you wouldn't want to spend a power pick on them as the top tier power in an epic pool.

 

I actually really like the idea of an accolade that gets more useful as characters pick up more zone exploration badges.   It seems well in line with the effort required to get popular accolades like TFC.  However, I can see why people who already use LRT as part of their character concept are annoyed that they'll lose the power and have to regain it.  I don't know how easy/feasible this is, but would it be possible to grant character who currently have LRT the option to automatically gain the exploration badges for those zones currently covered by LRT?  That way they aren't losing anything the character already had.  (Optional because I'm sure there are some people who wouldn't want to take the badges, for whatever reason.)

[ZacKing]

Remove the 30 charge limit from the day job power.  It's not necessary.  travel as a time sink is a relic to keep people paying and playing longer.  this game is free and it isn't necessary anymore. 

[Jimmy]

1 minute ago, ZacKing said:

Remove the 30 charge limit from the day job power.  It's not necessary.  travel as a time sink is a relic to keep people paying and playing longer.  this game is free and it isn't necessary anymore. 

That's how Day Jobs work right now. All non-passive day job powers cap out at 30 charges.

 

Not to say we won't revisit Day Jobs at some point - I'd certainly like to do that  - but that's not happening in this update.

[Safehouse]

So I love the idea of long range teleport. I don't mind it being behind exploration badges, personally. What I've been doing while playtesting my EM/INv scrapper is, every time I come into a new zone, I run around and grab the exploration badges.

 

My only beef with it is in the activation/animation. Currently when I click to activate it I just sort of... stand there... hands splayed beside me. I see the circle around the power spinning, but otherwise no sign that there's success. The game feels like it freezes. Then, after a long pause, the zone list comes up. I would like to propose:

• 1. That the zone list come up upon using the power - before any sort of action animation plays, and;
• 2. That there be some sort of effect and/or sound that plays to indicate that the power is working.

Otherwise, I don't mind the activation time itself.

[ZacKing]

29 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

That's how Day Jobs work right now. All non-passive day job powers cap out at 30 charges.

 

Not to say we won't revisit Day Jobs at some point - I'd certainly like to do that  - but that's not happening in this update.

Thanks for the reply.  I didn't know this is how all day jobs worked.  I guess the next question is why make it a day job power and not just a power that gets unlocked for joining a supergroup?  if I'm remembering right, SGs used to unlock beacons by being in SG mode and getting all the zone badges in a particular zone.  can't this just be made a power that's unlocked by joining a SG?  no need for recharging then.

[srmalloy]

10 hours ago, Number Six said:

Somewhere in the middle of all that, we got some additional information about things related to the systemwide improvements to input validation in the travel/portal UI that made the whole thing more urgent.

So the critical issue with enterbasefrompasscode is an "exploits of a mom" problem? Given some of the shortcuts the devs took to address problems, I'm not surprised that there is no input validation on the command, although it doesn't seem on its own to make it 'unfixable' as others have alluded to (and leads to wondering what bad input actually does). Still, we're not going to get details on it until after the closed loophole gets pushed to live, so speculation is sort of pointless.

[QuiJon]

Just something that came to me as i read some of the posts dealing with the Lore reasoning behind this or that. From a lore stand point since the game was introduced we have had emergency teleporters that took us to hospitals. And since Super Group bases were introduced this concept extended to being transported to super group hospital facilities. These teleporters have no limits. No charges, no cool downs. So from a lore stand point it makes little to no sense to have a hospital transporter that can take my almost dead body from any zone at any location and send it to my base  as quickly as i can die as often as i can die, and then say the same teleport system my base has can only port me 1 every 10 minutes. IMO this furthers the argument that all we need is a single power, that opens a base portal wherever we are in the game that takes you to your own base or allows you to type in another base passcode.  It should not be limited to charges or cool downs it should just be there fore us and should not be exploitable to in game advantages in pvp or taskforces. 

 

Once that is available which continues to give the players what they have wanted by using the slash command, then all the other LRTP and that junk is just extras for those that want to do them. And if for some reason you seem to think that having a portal like that breaks some kind of emersion in the game, well back when we were live there was this thing called the "level 50 highway". It was prior to alot of travel improvements made. But yeah it kind of also broke emersion when a zone of 50 or more level 50s that all just took down hamidon just jumped in front of a GM to willingly be killed so they could hit the hospital button and skip having to travel through Hive, eden and could pop back into the hospital in founders fall. I could see that starting up again as people run out of charges on teleporters or their options are all on cool down. I can see now entire teams taking turns selfdestructing to hopscotch their way through the kill missions in a Numina. 

[arthurh35353]

^^^^^^  This is the easy, simple Quality of Life update we want! 😄

[Jimmy]

1 hour ago, ZacKing said:

Thanks for the reply.  I didn't know this is how all day jobs worked.  I guess the next question is why make it a day job power and not just a power that gets unlocked for joining a supergroup?  if I'm remembering right, SGs used to unlock beacons by being in SG mode and getting all the zone badges in a particular zone.  can't this just be made a power that's unlocked by joining a SG?  no need for recharging then.

Well the Day Job power isn't the only option, it's just an extra we added because one of the existing day job powers for base portals (bonus brain storm ideas) didn't make much sense.

 

The Pay 2 Win option is likely to see much more use as it doesn't require a specific day job badge and isn't limited in charges.

[Jimmy]

4 minutes ago, QuiJon said:

From a lore stand point since the game was introduced we have had emergency teleporters that took us to hospitals.

With a debt cost.

 

Perhaps we should've just applied one death's worth of debt when you use the command? 😉

[srmalloy]

2 minutes ago, QuiJon said:

These teleporters have no limits. No charges, no cool downs. So from a lore stand point it makes little to no sense to have a hospital transporter that can take my almost dead body from any zone at any location and send it to my base  as quickly as i can die as often as i can die, and then say the same teleport system my base has can only port me 1 every 10 minutes.

Or, equally, if the hospital teleporter in your base can yank you out of the Shadow Shard, Cimerora, Ouroboros, or any of the Echo zones, and your base portal will drop you back where you came from -- across dimensions and time -- why it suddenly becomes a problem for there to be base beacons that will let you go there directly. Which raises a second question -- do all the various new base teleport powers become useless in these zones? If the teleport beacons go away for zones in other dimensions or across time, then it stands to reason that the use of the same teleport functionality to enter and leave your base via the base portal would be unavailable, too.

[ZacKing]

4 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

Well the Day Job power isn't the only option, it's just an extra we added because one of the existing day job powers for base portals (bonus brain storm ideas) didn't make much sense.

 

The Pay 2 Win option is likely to see much more use as it doesn't require a specific day job badge and isn't limited in charges.

So our choices for keeping the base macros working is either one with limited use charges or one that's overpriced and a super long recharge or schlepping to be near a portal.  this seems self defeating to me.  Appreciate the effort, but neither of these new things are all that appealing.  A 20-30 second recharge with no charge limits is enough in my opinion.  Can't understand why this had to be made so complicated. 

[Grouchybeast]

3 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

The Pay 2 Win option is likely to see much more use as it doesn't require a specific day job badge and isn't limited in charges.

Although it does have a 30 minute cooldown unaffected by global recharge.

 

I would much prefer one base portal summon power, matching Ouro portals in its cooldown, and get rid of all the others.  it's so much simpler and cleaner.  We don't have four types of Ouro portals with four different combinations of function, charges and cooldowns.  We don't need four different base access powers, either.

[ShardWarrior]

7 minutes ago, Grouchybeast said:

Although it does have a 30 minute cooldown unaffected by global recharge.

 

I would much prefer one base portal summon power, matching Ouro portals in its cooldown, and get rid of all the others.  it's so much simpler and cleaner.  We don't have four types of Ouro portals with four different combinations of function, charges and cooldowns.  We don't need four different base access powers, either.

I have to agree.  The P2W option is no option at all if you ask me given the price and ridiculous recharge time.  I just cannot wrap my head around why we need so many different base portal powers now.  As suggested above, just make one.  As I recall, the issue with the slash command was that it can be used as an escape from death and was immersion breaking.  Having a single base transport animation that is interruptible solves both those issues.  I personally see no reason for it to be locked behind limited use charges and absurdly long cool downs.  People are still going to need to use some level of travel to go to a mission door after using the base portal.  This is not an instant teleport to a mission door like team teleport. 

[QuiJon]

56 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

With a debt cost.

 

Perhaps we should've just applied one death's worth of debt when you use the command? 😉

With how little death means these days i doubt that it would have been an issue. However for those trying to work pvp or MOTF runs i guess if it actually counted as a death it would be counter productive to using it as a cheat and negate the need to worry about it all together.