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Are Leadership Bonuses Cumulative?


drgantz

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46 minutes ago, CrudeVileTerror said:

A team of 8 Soldiers of Arachnos (or Widows, whatever).

It gets to the point where not everyone needs to have their toggles running because you've all hit Cap on something.

It's part of the reason a full team of FRads or Green Machine are so devastating as well.  Heaven help a team facing VEATs who are also running Leadership in addition to their own Tactical Team powers.  The rough equivalent of 16 Tactics, Assault, and Maneuvers ...

 

It gets insanely good fast.

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9 hours ago, Hew said:

Defender super teams are a real thing!

The smoothest teams I've been on have been tankless, DPS-less all support groups. Controls and debuffs in this game do not mess around.

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11 hours ago, Doomguide2005 said:

  Heaven help a team facing VEATs who are also running Leadership in addition to their own Tactical Team powers.  The rough equivalent of 16 Tactics, Assault, and Maneuvers ...

VEAT version of Manuvers is more potent.  Where a Defender would have a 3.5% base increase to all Defense, TTM from a Widow is 5% and TTM is 10% from a Spider.  Now that is the stupid part.

Currently playing on Indomitable as @Zork Nemesis; was a Protector native on live.

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17 hours ago, LiquidBandage said:

Wait for the moment when the brain goes *BOOM!* after realizing what eight Defenders all running toggles could do...

I got that beat:   The first couple week when VEATs came out.   You had lowbie teams of all VEATs running max level diff, and the only problems we had was running out of end.   It was glorious.  And now, with not needing fitness pre-reqs, etc, I make sure all my VEATs take at least one normal Leadership power to double up.

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11 minutes ago, Doomguide2005 said:

And yet threads proposing we "self gimp" ourselves pop up when discussing balance and difficulty.  We already do when not taking Leadership powers 🤪.  

I've hopped on so many "4/8 PI Radio tm lfm" where I was the only one with Tactics, it made me think that maybe Leadership had been deprecated sometime between my walking away from CoH and its return.  I understand people can get amazing Accuracy bonuses from sets and Incarnates, but to my mind, there is no substitute for raw +ToHit.  I'd rather the streakbreaker occasionally disappoint me than constantly save me.

Edited by roleki
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3 minutes ago, roleki said:

I've hopped on so many "4/8 PI Radio tm lfm" where I was the only one with Tactics, it made me think that maybe Leadership had been deprecated sometime between my walking away from CoH and its return.  I understand people can get amazing Accuracy bonuses from sets and Incarnates, but to my mind, there is no substitute for raw +ToHit.  I'd rather the streakbreaker occasionally disappoint me than constantly save me.

There's a lot of building characters precisely with the goal of being independent on teaming/teams, of being able to solo.  Then it becomes self fulfilling as the team separates zerging through the mission often separating which of course negates the effect of having Leadership toggles for buffing the team even if present.  

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18 minutes ago, roleki said:

I've hopped on so many "4/8 PI Radio tm lfm" where I was the only one with Tactics, it made me think that maybe Leadership had been deprecated sometime between my walking away from CoH and its return.  I understand people can get amazing Accuracy bonuses from sets and Incarnates, but to my mind, there is no substitute for raw +ToHit.  I'd rather the streakbreaker occasionally disappoint me than constantly save me.

There's also marginal benefits to consider.  Stalkers, Brutes and Scrappers get such terrible modifiers on their Leadership toggles that I don't see any reason to take them over something else. However if you're a VEAT, MM, Defender, Corruptor or Controller, take the toggles.  

 

A Defender gets base 3.5%, 18.75%, and 12.5% for M, A and T respectively.  Stalkers get 2.275%, 10.5% and 7% by comparison.  That's a pretty huge difference, especially when the Stalker is more likely to be running off solo and not huddled in a pile with the rest of the team to begin with.  

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4 hours ago, ZorkNemesis said:

VEAT version of Manuvers is more potent.  Where a Defender would have a 3.5% base increase to all Defense, TTM from a Widow is 5% and TTM is 10% from a Spider.  Now that is the stupid part.

And that would be expected.  Primary > Secondary > Pools (and of course they aren't exactly the same powers)

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8 minutes ago, Doomguide2005 said:

And that would be expected.  Primary > Secondary > Pools (and of course they aren't exactly the same powers)

SoA Assault and Tactics have the same potency as Pool Assault and Tactics as if they were used by a Defender (both versions of Assault give +15% damage and Tactics give 10% To Hit) .  Maneuvers is the anomaly here, 3.5% from Pool (both SoA and Defender value), while Widows get 5% and Spiders get 10% (Widows are likely lower due to Mind Link).

Edited by ZorkNemesis
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Currently playing on Indomitable as @Zork Nemesis; was a Protector native on live.

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22 minutes ago, Omega-202 said:

There's also marginal benefits to consider.  Stalkers, Brutes and Scrappers get such terrible modifiers on their Leadership toggles that I don't see any reason to take them over something else. However if you're a VEAT, MM, Defender, Corruptor or Controller, take the toggles.  

 

A Defender gets base 3.5%, 18.75%, and 12.5% for M, A and T respectively.  Stalkers get 2.275%, 10.5% and 7% by comparison.  That's a pretty huge difference, especially when the Stalker is more likely to be running off solo and not huddled in a pile with the rest of the team to begin with.  

Sort of ... it's a little like not taking a Build Up+ power that operates 24-7 for the cost of running your own toggles, but yes the smaller the values the more opportunity cost involved in whatever you could have taken and in the playstyle involved.  Just keep in mind what is given up --> roughly +24 def, +80% damage and +56% to hit that operates all the time (and that's pre enhancement)

 

Edit:  and that's without considering the way your powers could be slotted/enhanced knowing those buffs would be present.  

Edited by Doomguide2005
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7 minutes ago, Doomguide2005 said:

Sort of ... it's a little like not taking a Build Up+ power that operates 24-7 for the cost of running your own toggles, but yes the smaller the values the more opportunity cost involved in whatever you could have taken and in the playstyle involved.  Just keep in mind what is given up --> roughly +24 def, +80% damage and +56% to hit that operates all the time (and that's pre enhancement)

A) True, but at the same time, they cost a buttload of end to run.  There are countless posts on the Scrapper and Stalker boards from people who are running 2-3 Leadership toggles and struggling with end management and need to take Body Mastery, an end management Alpha, and/or Ageless Destiny to function.  Sure you gain 10% damage from Assault, but you can get 3 times that from Musculature Core and be able to take a different APP/PPP if you didn't run Leadership. 

 

B) But you might be saying "that 10% effects the whole team"...yeah, if the team is huddled together 24/7.  But a Scrapper in the middle of a spawn is not covering the Corruptor 75 ft out and vice versa.  And neither is covering the Brute at the next spawn or the Stalker 3 rooms over.  Also, so what if you're boosting the Defender's damage 10%?  If an alternative build lets you maximize personal damage on the melee damage dealer in other ways, a 20% boost on the Scrapper is better than 10% each on the Defender and the Scrapper.  

 

That's not to say Leadership isn't super valuable.  It is, but it is also more valuable on some builds than others.  

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Can't disagree, that's the opportunity cost(s) involved both in build and playstyle (both of the character and of the player).  One of the few places I've seen Team Teleport used, for example, is on super teams.  It helps keep the team tight and places all those pbaoe toggles on the mob simultaneously.

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Something to bear in mind with Leadership toggles is that if you're involved in something on a league (iTrial, MSR, Hami, whatever) then AFAIK Leadership will only affect your team.

 

So if you're on team 1, then standing next to team 3 which has three Defenders running Leadership on it won't give you any extra ToHit, Defence, Damage or Confuse protection.

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On 10/28/2020 at 12:55 PM, Omega-202 said:

A) True, but at the same time, they cost a buttload of end to run.  There are countless posts on the Scrapper and Stalker boards from people who are running 2-3 Leadership toggles and struggling with end management and need to take Body Mastery, an end management Alpha, and/or Ageless Destiny to function.  Sure you gain 10% damage from Assault, but you can get 3 times that from Musculature Core and be able to take a different APP/PPP if you didn't run Leadership.

Then they don't know how to build their characters.  My dark defender runs all 3 toggles plus Shadowfall and solos just fine (i.e. attacking non-stop).  This is at level 38 with no Body Mastery or incarnate crutches.  My scrapper runs Assault and Tactics *AND* Focused Accuracy and his Incarnate powers are focused on DAMAGE.  And from Body Mastery he took only Focused Accuracy and Laser Beam Eyes.  He doesn't need Physical Perfection or Conserve Power.

 

All of my defenders take all 3 toggles (because defenders get the largest bonus).  My controllers usually take all 3 because they also affect your pets.  If your teammates have pets, they are also affected.  The limit on the toggles is 255 targets.  You can have 8 masterminds and every pet will be affected (within a 60' radius).

 

I'll admit the endurance cost is a concern while you only have SO's.  Once you get IO's, though, it's not a problem.

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1 minute ago, Ironblade said:

Then they don't know how to build their characters.  My dark defender runs all 3 toggles plus Shadowfall and solos just fine (i.e. attacking non-stop).  This is at level 38 with no Body Mastery or incarnate crutches.  My scrapper runs Assault and Tactics *AND* Focused Accuracy and his Incarnate powers are focused on DAMAGE.  And from Body Mastery he took only Focused Accuracy and Laser Beam Eyes.  He doesn't need Physical Perfection or Conserve Power.

 

All of my defenders take all 3 toggles (because defenders get the largest bonus).  My controllers usually take all 3 because they also affect your pets.  If your teammates have pets, they are also affected.  The limit on the toggles is 255 targets.  You can have 8 masterminds and every pet will be affected (within a 60' radius).

 

I'll admit the endurance cost is a concern while you only have SO's.  Once you get IO's, though, it's not a problem.

1) Sure a Dark Defender can easily get away with that because you're only running 1-2 other solid toggles.  Compare that to 5-6 on some melee builds.  I run Tactics, Manuevers, CJ, Shadowfall, Dark Embrace and Sprint on my Dark Corruptor, but that's completely irrelevant because we were talking about the melee ATs.

 

2) You conspicuously leave out what your Scrapper's armor set is.  Willpower?  Energy? Electric? Rad? Of course you'll be fine with those sets. The issue is the other half of the armor sets.  SR, Invuln, Shield and Dark can't afford the extra end drain.  It's not a matter of knowing how to build.  I can make an Invuln that can run Leadership, but at what cost?  And by taking Leadership on your Scrapper, what are you not taking elsewhere?  

 

3) If you bothered to read, I said all Defenders and Controllers should probably take at least 2 of the toggles, if not all 3, so not sure what your point is at the end there.  

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On the topic of melee running leadership, yea, on my tanks, maybe. Scrappers and brutes, not a chance. Max recharge + max damage = I'm gonna need body/nrg mastery for more end so I can go barrier\rebirth instead of ageless while still maintaining all my defensive toggles and taking down AVs solo.

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