What is the point?

[Ultimo]

So... in my ongoing effort to make characters I like to play, often based on existing comic characters, I've tried out pretty well all the ATs.  This has led me to wonder about the control specialists, Controllers and Dominators.  What is their point?  I mean, I know, they can control enemies... but that really seems like an irrelevant ability when facing minions and lieutenants, who typically melt like butter before the controls are actually useful.  Moreover, most of their controls take the form of sleeps, which are usually immediately broken, or immobilizations, which don't really do anything to protect the group, as those enemies can still attack.

 

Sure, Controllers have some support in their secondary, and Dominators have some blasts and such in theirs... but in each case, they're not really especially powerful, making them of limited use.  I mean, Defenders have WAY more support ability, and both Blasters and Corruptors do WAY more damage.  Indeed, both ATs are VERY low in damage output, and even lower defensively.

 

So, I find myself trying to decide what exactly the point is of these ATs?  Their primaries are of next to no use to groups, and their secondaries are of very limited use.

 

Am I the only one wondering this?

[UltraAlt]

er, what?

[Tsuko]

56 minutes ago, Ultimo said:

So... in my ongoing effort to make characters I like to play, often based on existing comic characters, I've tried out pretty well all the ATs.  This has led me to wonder about the control specialists, Controllers and Dominators.  What is their point?  I mean, I know, they can control enemies... but that really seems like an irrelevant ability when facing minions and lieutenants, who typically melt like butter before the controls are actually useful.  Moreover, most of their controls take the form of sleeps, which are usually immediately broken, or immobilizations, which don't really do anything to protect the group, as those enemies can still attack.

 

Sure, Controllers have some support in their secondary, and Dominators have some blasts and such in theirs... but in each case, they're not really especially powerful, making them of limited use.  I mean, Defenders have WAY more support ability, and both Blasters and Corruptors do WAY more damage.  Indeed, both ATs are VERY low in damage output, and even lower defensively.

 

So, I find myself trying to decide what exactly the point is of these ATs?  Their primaries are of next to no use to groups, and their secondaries are of very limited use.

 

Am I the only one wondering this?

You should take a look at Controlers and Dominators innate abilities and reconsider the damage they have compared to coruptors.

[Aeroprism]

My Lv 35 Elec/Elec controller, with minimal effort, will turn an army of lieutenants and bosses into kittens.

 

When the blasters and scrappers and stalkers can do their thing with total, pure impunity, missions go by fast.

 

Really fast.

[Ultimo]

Must be a level thing, then.  By L22, none of my Controllers or Dominators are of much use to teams (or often, even to themselves).  Perhaps by later levels that changes.

[Doomguide2005]

Level 22 would be a bit premature to judge almost any set.  Controllers won't yet have their lvl 32 pet(s) and their support side is even more underdeveloped.  Empathy as a secondary, for example, has barely had the opportunity to slot Fortitude (lvl 20) yet and neither Aura or Adrenaline Boost are available (levels 28, 35 and 38).  Similar story for the other ATs.

[Riverdusk]

The only control sets that use sleep to any real degree in my experience are mind and electric.  Not sure what you mean by sleep being the main control mechanism as sleep is skipped entirely on most sets by most people.   If you are looking for damage there are good options that can generally rival and sometimes beat a corrupter (gravity or illusion for ST, plant or fire for AoE).  Having support as a secondary set on a controller is usually about the same buff/debuff numbers as you get on a corrupter and can definitely be powerful.

 

Now, if you get on a team that is just steamrolling through everything, then yes, controls aren't the most useful.  Control comes in more useful if a team is struggling a bit and you can single handily turn the entire team around many times in those situations.  On my controllers on some teams I feel like I'm not doing much, other times I feel like I'm saving the whole team, so it is probably a more swingy AT than most in how much I feel I contribute, in my experience.  

[Gulbasaur]

Controllers are nearer tankers in the attitude you play with - they control the flow of a battle, as I think of it.

 

There's also a playstyle thing: controllers, and especially dominators, can solo a hell of a lot more easily than corruptors or defenders. Dominators can take on elite bosses while those two are still waiting for their endurance to refill. Not everyone exclusively plays tank and spank AoE extraveganzas. 

[JJDrakken]

On 11/13/2020 at 4:41 AM, Riverdusk said:

The only control sets that use sleep to any real degree in my experience are mind and electric.  Not sure what you mean by sleep being the main control mechanism as sleep is skipped entirely on most sets by most people.   If you are looking for damage there are good options that can generally rival and sometimes beat a corrupter (gravity or illusion for ST, plant or fire for AoE).  Having support as a secondary set on a controller is usually about the same buff/debuff numbers as you get on a corrupter and can definitely be powerful.

 

Now, if you get on a team that is just steamrolling through everything, then yes, controls aren't the most useful.  Control comes in more useful if a team is struggling a bit and you can single handily turn the entire team around many times in those situations.  On my controllers on some teams I feel like I'm not doing much, other times I feel like I'm saving the whole team, so it is probably a more swingy AT than most in how much I feel I contribute, in my experience.  

 

Ice Control also.

[Six-Six]

On teams, that is pretty much a common sentiment: what am I really contributing. While I don't want to go into that, you should try soloing doms, corrs, fenders and trollers. That's when their control abilities really matter. You hold an entire mob helpless, unable to attack, unable to run, while you sadistically kill them one by one. 

[InvaderStych]

Saying this as someone who plays 99% melee, and at this point 99% of those are Scrappers:

 

Ill/Rad controllers were the original "Hard Target" soloists.  Not a single one of my Scrappers can solo a Giant Monster.  Ill/Rad controllers have been able to do that since time immemorial.

 

Dom's are a virtual tidal wave of destruction in the right hands.

 

Which reminds me, I should try to branch out more on ATs.

 

Once i27p1 goes live I might tinker with an archery/archery Corr as that looks like it might be fun, and I've been meaning to try out a Defender as a "Team Leader" toon.  Focus on guiding the team and Support abilities rather than charging headlong into mobs and laying down the damage, you know, for a change of pace.

[Gulbasaur]

8 minutes ago, InvaderStych said:

Ill/Rad controllers were the original "Hard Target" soloists.  Not a single one of my Scrappers can solo a Giant Monster.  Ill/Rad controllers have been able to do that since time immemorial.

Truth. I've seen people write off the non-DPS archetypes as "weak" - babycakes, controllers can do what a brute can do with half the hit points. They don't have the 90% resistances because they don't need to. The idea that something doesn't wear armour so it must be weak is so backwards.

 

Also, try the VEATs out - they've both got super flexible builds and literally have the Leadership skills built in. Fortunatas are scraptrollers, night widows are utility stalkers and soldier builds are most some variant on AoE-tank.

Edited November 15, 2020 by Gulbasaur

[Haijinx]

They may not be needed on teams with a lot of strong melee types with lots of IOs

 

But on teams without that?  Pretty useful.

[InvaderStych]

On 11/14/2020 at 7:03 AM, Six Six said:

On teams, that is pretty much a common sentiment: what am I really contributing.

 

15 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

But on teams without that?  Pretty useful.

 

Honestly, even before IOs or iPowers, pretty much every AT has probably asked themselves this question at one point or another.  To me though, that has always been the beauty of CoH, and why I never got into any of the other marquee MMOs.

 

When I first found Homecoming a theme-team of 7 defenders invited my Brute for a task force.  I'm pretty sure my Brute's contribution to the team could have been replaced by the "Reveal" p2w power. 🤣

 

No single AT is "needed" for any given team.*  Embrace it, Love it, and commence to Steam-Rolling with it. 😄

 

* - Hami raids and maybe the annoying iTrials like Keyes may not actually qualify for this concept, but even those are being done by smaller teams of fully kitted post-50 monstrosities.

 

22 minutes ago, Gulbasaur said:

Also, try the VEATs out - they've both got super flexible builds and literally have the Leadership skills built in. Fortunatas are scraptrollers, night widows are utility stalkers and soldier builds are most some variant on AoE-tank.

 

On the list.  I tried to re-roll one of my toons as Widow, but when I saw the limited number of hairstyles I stalled at the costume creator and she became a Psi/SD scrapper.

 

I'm weird like that. 🤣

 

Edited November 15, 2020 by InvaderStych

[Gulbasaur]

1 hour ago, InvaderStych said:

On the list.  I tried to re-roll one of my toons as Widow, but when I saw the limited number of hairstyles I stalled at the costume creator and she became a Psi/SD scrapper.

Yeah, the first costume slot is like that. The rest are normal.

[Uun]

On 11/10/2020 at 1:55 AM, Ultimo said:

Blasters and Corruptors do WAY more damage

Damage modifiers:

	Melee	Ranged
Blaster	1.00	1.125
Corruptor	0.75	0.75
Dominator	1.05	0.95

[InvaderStych]

22 minutes ago, Gulbasaur said:

Yeah, the first costume slot is like that. The rest are normal.

Ah, good to know.  So use slot one for the uni, and the rest are wide open.  Makes sense.

[Six-Six]

the rest of the slots for widows and soldiers, while they do have more choices, are still limited compared to other ATs.

I agree with you on the costume. Things aren't worth doing if you don't look good while doing it. 😃

[krj12]

My response to this:

1.   Controllers are of great use in most groups - they tend to keep everyone else alive, in a way they provide the same use as a tank

2.   Most controllers do not use sleep - and yes the sleep powers that do exist are pretty useless.  

3.   Damage depends a lot on which primaries/secondaries you pick.   My Plant/Storm for example does quite fine against level 50+4 x 8  council radios.

Back on live Fire/Kin trollers used to be the go to farming toons since they did massive damage in certain missions.

 

 

[Greycat]

5 hours ago, krj12 said:

2.   Most controllers do not use sleep - and yes the sleep powers that do exist are pretty useless. 

*laughs as I sleep groups of enemies and wander by to get glowies... even in the bunkers in Keyes... without drawing aggro.*

 

Sleeps are far from useless. Don't give in to this mindset that just because damage "wakes" them it's useless. Sleeps will shut down things other controls won't, and even if the mob's woken up right away, they often won't have a key power available (for instance, dispersion bubbles - which generally resist other controls, PBAOE -tohit auras or armors.) They make life *much* easier and are underrated.

 

*wanders over to shut down some AVs in a MLTF. They need a nap.*

 

 

As for the rest? Honestly, yes, I find people not *noticing* the contributions, sometimes, but they'll happily take *full* advantage of, say, that Quicksand or Ice Slick patch bunching up an ambush for easy AOEing, or taking out that Sapper that's stuck in a bunch of vines, or casually breaking that Gunslinger that can no longer teleport away or energy blasting PP that will never MOG because they're in a hunk of ice.

 

Lack of big orange number generation doesn't mean lack of usefulness.

[Ultimo]

What I meant was that as a Controller or Dominator, you're not really providing damage, protection or support for the team.

 

Your damage is going to be largely slow to inflict.  Solo, this is how you defeat your foes, slowly but safely.  In groups, though, your damage is trivial, and most enemies are defeated before you do anything significant.

 

Your protection of the team is marginal too.  Sleeps are usually broken right away, and immobilizes don't prevent enemy attacks.  Holds are better, but are either single target on foes that get killed immediately, before the presence of the hold means anything, or have such short duration and long recharge, that they're more or less irrelevant.  Of course, bosses and higher ignore all of that anyway.

 

Your support powers are the most useful, but even then it's only marginally, because they're your secondary, and as such are relatively weak.  Dominators don't even have THAT much, as their secondary is more dps, such as it is.

 

Yes, I find Controllers and Dominators reasonably capable on their own, but I find their ability to contribute meaningfully to teams kind of dubious.

[Gulbasaur]

10 hours ago, Six Six said:

the rest of the slots for widows and soldiers, while they do have more choices, are still limited compared to other ATs.

No, they're literally the same. VEATs get one uniform slot and the rest are regular. The lack of power customisation is the only way they're limited.

1 hour ago, Ultimo said:

Yes, I find Controllers and Dominators reasonably capable on their own, but I find their ability to contribute meaningfully to teams kind of dubious.

Which teams? Under what circumstances? I think there's a massive difference depending on who is playing and who is playing what. I find it much easier to keep whole teams alive on my widow than with my tanker because control mitigates damage for everyone, not just the tank with 90% resists and 45% defences.

 

Immobilises keep enemies in the AoE pile after the half-asleep tank has decided to pull all the aggro in the middle of a room after ignoring the group hidden round the corner. The sleep stops the other group of enemies from immediately aggroing onto the corruptor. The confuse shifts the team from "almost dead" to "already won". Most tanks can't handle aggro from three groups at once - control archetypes can do this backwards and in heels. If I want to bring a load of single-level characters into +4x8 Dark Astoria or run tip missions in Atlas, then control makes it a piece of cake, and that's before we include things like the secondary.

 

It's also important to realise that those immobilises allow controllers to do respectable damage - with Containment, the controller damage ranged scale is effectively 1.1. If you had a power that gave you a 100% crit rate for 30 seconds, wouldn't you use it?

Edited November 16, 2020 by Gulbasaur

[Carnifax]

My Fire/NRG domi will lock down the whole spawn. Even if the tank hasn't got there yet (I have a 4 second rule, if the tank isn't in within 4 seconds they're getting AOE Mezzed anyway).

 

Yesterday on a PuG he held Antimatter to a standstill after all the tanks etc had fallen (AM is nasty). While they rezzed and stagger-ran for cover to heal & toggle up I kept him busy with a combo of kiting and mezzes. I'll admit the timings helped, Purple Triangles were down long enough to stack a lot of PBed holds on him and distract him with Imps but it worked, team reassembled and we took him down. 

 

My Illusion / Dark will open the combat, floor everythings ToHit, buff your defenses, make everyone on the team hit harder (Tar Patch), stop you running out of End and if we meet an AV they'll die an awful lot quicker. Oh, and I might heal you or rez you too if things really go south. 

16 hours ago, InvaderStych said:

No single AT is "needed" for any given team.*  Embrace it, Love it, and commence to Steam-Rolling with it. 😄

 

This. On an 8 man team chances you could replace ANYONE on the team with a stick with a smilie face and you wouldn't really notice. I know on that PuG yesterday the Tanky team leader started jumping ahead to start rounding up the next spawn because he knew that myself and the two controllers would very swiftly have his back (proved when he accidently split and died because we went into another room). 

 

4 hours ago, Greycat said:

As for the rest? Honestly, yes, I find people not *noticing* the contributions, sometimes, but they'll happily take *full* advantage of, say, that Quicksand or Ice Slick patch bunching up an ambush for easy AOEing, or taking out that Sapper that's stuck in a bunch of vines, or casually breaking that Gunslinger that can no longer teleport away or energy blasting PP that will never MOG because they're in a hunk of ice.

 

Lack of big orange number generation doesn't mean lack of usefulness.

This. It's very hard to quantify how effective a knockdown patch or a mass of writhing tentacles is in terms of dealing with incoming damage. Or how easy it is to miss the fact that everything is missing you and you're killing things really quickly. 

 

A lot of the time all that control isn't needed if you're just doing +4 PI radios but +4 PI Radios are the shallow end of the pool. 

[madicen]

6 hours ago, Ultimo said:

What I meant was that as a Controller or Dominator, you're not really providing damage, protection or support for the team.

 

Your damage is going to be largely slow to inflict.  Solo, this is how you defeat your foes, slowly but safely.  In groups, though, your damage is trivial, and most enemies are defeated before you do anything significant.

 

Your protection of the team is marginal too.  Sleeps are usually broken right away, and immobilizes don't prevent enemy attacks.  Holds are better, but are either single target on foes that get killed immediately, before the presence of the hold means anything, or have such short duration and long recharge, that they're more or less irrelevant.  Of course, bosses and higher ignore all of that anyway.

 

Your support powers are the most useful, but even then it's only marginally, because they're your secondary, and as such are relatively weak.  Dominators don't even have THAT much, as their secondary is more dps, such as it is.

 

Yes, I find Controllers and Dominators reasonably capable on their own, but I find their ability to contribute meaningfully to teams kind of dubious.

You're clarification did not help any. I think most people understood your position the first time, but like me found it ridiculous. Is your ideal group just 8 Blasters? Many of us, myself included, find Blasters boring AF to play. Self centered all out dps is not everyone's cup of tea, nor is it the ONLY way to play this game.

 

I think you should actually play a Dom or Controller at end game before you try to speak on their role in groups. So far all you've done is explain that you do not understand what these AT bring to the table. 

Edited November 16, 2020 by madicen

[Six-Six]

I'm quite sure they're limited. not all the hair styles are available for Widows, for example