lack of empathy for empaths?

[Miltonaut]

I built an illusion/empathy dedicated healer recently. I've been getting a lot of flack for it from randos in Paragon City, and I just don't understand it.

 

Criticisms mainly focus on its lack of dps and how other powersets (e.g.: warmth) are more useful. It's a dedicated healer--it has some attacks, but that's not where the focus is. The purpose of a dedicated healer is to keep the rest of the team alive and kicking (or punching or blasting). I purposely chose controller over defender for the Phantom Army and Phantasm powers. And as for empathy vs. warmth, empathy was a better fit for the character's backstory. I've never been a stats-driven player; I'm more about the character and their story.

 

IMHO, if you don't want to make a dedicated healer, don't make one. If you don't want a dedicated healer on your team, don't invite one. Don't rag on other players' choices that don't affect you. That simply makes sense to me.

 

I've mostly just been blocking/ignoring the people giving me grief, but they do have me wondering--Am I actually overlooking something? Or do they and I simply have different playstyles?

[Panache]

How many powers from Illusion did you take? There used to be a "trend" of players playing "dedicated support"; the most extreme version of this was Emp Defs with just their T1 attack full Leadership and, for reasons passing understanding, Medicine pools. While I personally find unsolicited negative criticism tedious and pointless, those builds did indeed deserve to die in a fire.

[Sir Myshkin]

7 hours ago, Miltonaut said:

Am I actually overlooking something?

The opinion of debate: Empathy has not had value in this game since the advent of the Invention System, and is only in the game as a "token" set (there because every other game had one, so CoH had to, too).

Empathy has some value in the early game since players barely have any powers yet, let alone enhancements, so there's plenty for the "healing" side of things to keep active. As players flesh out their builds and get IO's and bonuses going, more and more of the need for "just heals" starts to go out the window since so many try and build Defense and Resistance to high levels. It's fairly simple for nearly any character in the game to get 45% S/L or Ranged Defense with a bit of build effort, and that single stat alone eliminates a huge amount of potential threat. This effect is even more compounded with the addition of Incarnates.

 

Your four key powers are Fortitude, Recovery and Regeneration Aura(s), and Adrenalin Boost. Ageless and Rebirth both invalidate three of those by giving that functionality to 40 people from any build that slots the power. Barrier invalidates Fortitude by an aggressive amount by giving that insane boost to, again, a huge chunk of people. You've now become a Resurrect Bot, and even in that you'll probably fail to be useful as someone will most likely have a Barrier that also includes the Resurrect utility. Or any number of temporary powers that do the same thing.

 

These are unfortunately the current dilemmas of an Empathy character.

 

If you say you're making a "Dedicated Healer", many are going to interpret that as "no attacks", and that translates as "I'm just sitting here waiting for you to get hit and not bringing any other value to the team besides waiting to fill your green bar back up that isn't moving because everyone's a walking tank." Empathy can have a useful place in the right team, but in the current state of the game it just can't be the only thing you bring to the table. Bring Holds, have perma Phantom Army, keep Spectral going, keep Phantasm alive, make sure you've got a contribution to the damage aspect too.

 

7 hours ago, Miltonaut said:

Or do they and I simply have different playstyles?

To an extent, yes. You can definitely play the game however you want, and in fact there was one player who documented soloing with an Empathy Defender (a set that ends up only carrying three self-inflicting abilities) just to prove a point. So you do you, and own it.

 

If you're open to some thoughts on a different path within the wheelhouse you're looking at, I would suggest doing an Illusion/Pain Controller instead of Illusion/Empathy. You can color the powers however you see fit to keep a theme, and ignore the names of any of the powers to effect, but Pain Domination has (in my opinion) a much better aresenal of tools that support a team (and you) more dynamically in the current state of the game. It has enemy debuffs, player buffs, still keeps active healing, and will keep you engage in a positive way with any team irregardless of your primary. My opinion, between Empathy and Pain Domination, Pain is the set that the game ultimately deserved and is the superior version of the "Healer" support role.

 

To give you an idea what an active Ill/Pain would look like I actually have a build one of my own:

 

Spoiler

Hero Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.6.0.7
https://github.com/ImaginaryDevelopment/imaginary-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Natural Controller
Primary Power Set: Illusion Control
Secondary Power Set: Pain Domination
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Force of Will
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Mace Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Blind -- UnbCns-Acc/Rchg(A), UnbCns-EndRdx/Hold(7), SprWiloft-Rchg/Dmg%(7), GhsWdwEmb-Dam%(11), UnbCns-Dam%(13), GldNet-Dam%(13)
Level 1: Nullify Pain -- Pnc-Heal/EndRedux(A), Pnc-EndRdx/Rchg(15), Pnc-Heal/Rchg(21), Pnc-Heal/EndRedux/Rchg(23), Pnc-Heal(50)
Level 2: Deceive -- SprWiloft-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear(A), SprWiloft-Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear/Rchg(23), SprWiloft-EndRdx/Rchg(37), SprWiloft-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear/EndRdx(40), SprWiloft-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear/EndRdx/Rchg(48)
Level 4: Soothe -- Prv-Heal(A), Prv-Heal/EndRdx(40)
Level 6: Share Pain -- Prv-Heal(A), Prv-Heal/Rchg(42)
Level 8: Superior Invisibility -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), Rct-Def/EndRdx(9), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(9), Rct-ResDam%(11)
Level 10: Conduit of Pain -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 12: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 14: Tough -- StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), GldArm-3defTpProc(15), HO:Ribo(50)
Level 16: Weave -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), Rct-Def(17), Rct-Def/EndRdx(17)
Level 18: Phantom Army -- ExpRnf-Acc/Rchg(A), ExpRnf-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(19), ExpRnf-EndRdx/Dmg/Rchg(19), ExpRnf-Acc/Dmg(21), OvrFrc-Dam/KB(43), SlbAll-Build%(48)
Level 20: Soothing Aura -- Prv-Heal/EndRdx(A), Prv-Heal(39)
Level 22: Mighty Leap -- BlsoftheZ-ResKB(A)
Level 24: Project Will -- Apc-Dmg(A), Apc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(25), Apc-Acc/Rchg(25), Apc-Dmg/EndRdx(27), Apc-Dam%(27), FrcFdb-Rechg%(31)
Level 26: Spectral Terror -- SprOvrPrs-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear(A), SprOvrPrs-Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear/Rchg(31), SprOvrPrs-EndRdx/Rchg(34), SprOvrPrs-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear/EndRdx(34), SprOvrPrs-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear/EndRdx/Rchg(34), SprOvrPrs-Rchg/Energy Font(36)
Level 28: World of Pain -- RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), RctArm-ResDam(29), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(29), RctArm-ResDam/Rchg(31), HO:Membr(46)
Level 30: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), Rct-Def/EndRdx(43), Rct-Def(43)
Level 32: Phantasm -- ExpRnf-Acc/Rchg(A), ExpRnf-Acc/Dmg(33), ExpRnf-Dmg/EndRdx(33), ExpRnf-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33), SvrRgh-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(36), SvrRgh-PetResDam(36)
Level 35: Anguishing Cry -- AnlWkn-Acc/Rchg/EndRdx(A), AnlWkn-Acc/Rchg(37), AnlWkn-DefDeb/EndRdx/Rchg(37)
Level 38: Painbringer -- Prv-Heal/Rchg/EndRdx(A), Prv-Heal/Rchg(39), Prv-EndRdx/Rchg(39), Prv-Absorb%(40)
Level 41: Scorpion Shield -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), Rct-Def(42), Rct-Def/EndRdx(42)
Level 44: Poisonous Ray -- SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(A), SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg(45), GldJvl-Dam%(45), TchofLadG-%Dam(45), AchHee-ResDeb%(46), ShlBrk-%Dam(46)
Level 47: Unleash Potential -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg(48)
Level 49: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(50)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Containment
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(3), Mrc-Rcvry+(3)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- PwrTrns-EndMod(A), PwrTrns-+Heal(5), PrfShf-End%(5)
Level 50: Vigor Radial Paragon
------------

 

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[Miltonaut]

2 hours ago, Panache said:

How many powers from Illusion did you take? There used to be a "trend" of players playing "dedicated support"; the most extreme version of this was Emp Defs with just their T1 attack full Leadership and, for reasons passing understanding, Medicine pools. While I personally find unsolicited negative criticism tedious and pointless, those builds did indeed deserve to die in a fire.

4 + Fire Blast from Fire Mastery

 

I admit to taking Aid Self from the Medicine pool so I could get another rez and the Field Medic buff for MSRs. 😆
 

I remembered dedicated support from live, but I don't remember any of the dislike for it.

---

@Sir MyshkinThank you for taking the time to type all that out. That's actually helpful information and advice--unlike the haters in game who were just shitting on me.

 

The character's backstory is built around an artifact passed down through generations of a family, absorbing power and sentience from its owners. Hence, empathy and phantoms. I might could get ill/pain to work but the toon is already lvl 50 with all incarnates unlocked. Not excited about having to do all that again... I really wish we could either switch powersets when respeccing or transfer xp to alts. *whines*

Edited November 16, 2020 by Miltonaut

[Omega-202]

14 minutes ago, Miltonaut said:

4 + Fire Blast from Fire Mastery

 

I admit to taking Aid Self from the Medicine pool so I could get another rez and the Field Medic buff for MSRs. XD

Oof.  That might be a large part of the problem.  

[Miltonaut]

13 minutes ago, Omega-202 said:

Oof.  That might be a large part of the problem.  

Well, all the hate I was getting was from people who hadn't even seen my build--general/lfg/help chat. They were hating the mere concept of a dedicated healer.

[TygerDarkstorm]

As someone who used to main a "pure" empathy defender back in the days when those were viable and somewhat desirable (though never with the medicine pool because lol what?) (leveling up pre-IO era), I have not really touched the powerset since I've returned to the game, specifically for the reasons Sir Mishkin outlined in his post, so I won't reiterate what's been said. If I were to run empathy again, it would probably be on a controller, corruptor or MM, with focus on bringing all my other tools to the party and not just my healing.

 

What some people new to this game, and possibly some returning players, seem to not realize with CoX is that dedicated healers are just not a thing or not needed in this game. If you are only focused on healing, even at the lower levels where it's more useful/desirable, you're being a bit of a hindrance to your team. My thermal/sonic defender may not put out a lot of damage, but I am rarely just sitting around waiting for people to get hurt. I am applying/reapplying shields, finding the hardest target and smacking them with debuffs, forging my damage dealers, and then shouting at things to amplifying my team's damage and help kill things faster. Chances are I end up missing a heal because most people can take care of themselves that I'm rarely watching green bars anyway. At level 46 I'm still a little undecided how I feel on the character as a whole and worry about her not being useful, but I still like to bring her out from time to time. I also have a baby pain defender in the works, though I decided to go fire primary on her for concept/bit more damage--which I now realize means she may be better as a corr, lol.

 

Once you get out of the "I need to be a dedicated healer" mindset, I find that support characters have become a lot more fun. I have been trying a lot of different sets I haven't before, and take and slot my attacks so that I am doing something to contribute to the team outside of my buffs/debuffs/heals. And sometimes it's fun to be on a support toon that doesn't heal at all, like cold, TA, poison (has a heal, but it's not very good), etc.

[TygerDarkstorm]

2 minutes ago, Miltonaut said:

Well, all the hate I was getting was from people who hadn't even seen my build--general/lfg/help chat. They were hating the mere concept of a dedicated healer.

Because, as mentioned by myself and others, this game doesn't require, need, or desire dedicated healers, not even on MSR's. You should be doing more than heal and waiting for green bars to move.

[Omega-202]

45 minutes ago, Miltonaut said:

Well, all the hate I was getting was from people who hadn't even seen my build--general/lfg/help chat. They were hating the mere concept of a dedicated healer.

The concept of a "dedicated healer" comes with preconceived notions that your summary seems to fulfill.  In today's metagame, Medicine as a whole pool is incredibly undertuned, added on to a very undertuned set in Empathy.  

 

Without seeing your build in the OP, I (and @Panache and others, probably) immediately knew your build was lacking basic tools, which is confirmed by your summary.  

 

If you only have 4 Ill powers, that means you don't have at least one of Group Invis or Spectral Terror, or likely both.  Those powers would do more to prevent damage from being taken, making it so you don't need to heal as much.  

 

As for Res powers, why do you need 2?  Resurrect with solid slotting and recharge bonuses should be on a sub-one-minute cooldown.  Everybody gets a freebie revive P2W for cheap.  You can get 30 charges of a res temp power from day jobs.   If you find yourself needing all of those, you're doing a bad job of actually keeping people alive, and might have been better off taking Dark Miasma for Howling Twilight.  

 

A full reroll shouldn't be needed, but you really need to gut your build and start from scratch.  You can still play a healer concept, but you need to mold that to how the game functions.  

 

EDIT: I just remembered a funny quote a friend said in game:

 

"Advertising yourself as a dedicated healer in COH is like someone applying to a physics PhD program with 'proud flat Earth believer' on their resume.  They might be a great guy, but I'm not dealing with that situation."

Edited November 16, 2020 by Omega-202

[Greycat]

39 minutes ago, TygerDarkstorm said:

Because, as mentioned by myself and others, this game doesn't require, need, or desire dedicated healers, not even on MSR's. You should be doing more than heal and waiting for green bars to move.

This. 100% this.

 

Mostly from prior experience with "dedicated healers" - like the 30-ish rad emission character who just took the healing aura, med pool, and no buffs or debuffs and didn't bother attacking -  if someone describes themselves as a "healer" or "Dedicated healer," I pretty much write them off. (Yes, I know, "it's unfair." But it's from experience.) And yes, I play empaths and pain domination characters. "Healers" are just not needed. That whole secondary (or primary in the case of controllers and corruptors) is there, and I want to know you're interested in using it, because those controls and attacks (both as attacks and with their buff/debuff components) are of *far* more interest to me than something I can replicate with an inspiration.

 

If one of my empaths (or pain doms) is in an MSR just "rocking the aura," one of three things has happened:

1. nothing is coming up as a visible target, so I'm watching for wherever the next pull is coming from,

2, I've gone to the rest room and will be right back, or

3, it's been a long day at work and I fell asleep. (Yes. This has happened. Finish work, get to the raid, get in the bowl, and at some point I wake up to the login screen because I just conked out.)

 

Otherwise, I'm throwing out controls, attacks, running over to rez, getting impatient and blasting a gate to get some more Rikti into the bowl... something.

[Miltonaut]

1 hour ago, TygerDarkstorm said:

Because, as mentioned by myself and others, this game doesn't require, need, or desire dedicated healers, not even on MSR's. You should be doing more than heal and waiting for green bars to move.

Method and context of message delivery is also important.

 

Here, I'm asking for information and advice. There, I was getting insults and unsolicited opinions and "suggestions." Being told I *have* to do something by complete strangers with no apparent authority only convinces me to dig in my heels and not do whatever it is they say I have to do.

[Omega-202]

5 minutes ago, Krimson said:

In all fairness. People get uptight over a lot of things. Nothing you can do about that. As was mentioned above, either form your own team, or get friends who don't care about min/maxing. 

Alternatively, fixing up their build and changing their in-game "messaging" can go a long way.  Nobody is going to give a "dedicated healer" the time of day, and there's not a lot you can do to change that.  But with some tweaks, you can optimize the build and just advertise as an Ill/Emp Controller.  

[Omega-202]

4 minutes ago, Krimson said:

I think people should play what they want to play. I know for a fact there are players that simply do not care about min/maxing in a game where the only PvP requires a dedicated build and there aren't very many of those. People will debate builds for hours, not realizing the time spent in debate your DPS is zero. If someone wants to bring a petless Mastermind to one of my teams, no problem. I don't boot builds, but I will boot people who whine about them. Over 90% of the CoH experience requires no competition with other players. I've seen groups ask for healers plenty of times, and if you are on a PI team that is mostly lowbies, that healer is going to be appreciated. 

That's fine and good.  People can play what they want.  But my understanding of the topic of this thread is that OP has done some self reflection and realized that they may be overlooking something (see the final paragraph of the first lost).  Eg. their build and playstyle may have issues and that they may have some misunderstandings about how the game works.  And the truth seems to be "yes" to both of those concerns.  

[Greycat]

2 hours ago, Miltonaut said:

Method and context of message delivery is also important.

 

Here, I'm asking for information and advice. There, I was getting insults and unsolicited opinions and "suggestions." Being told I *have* to do something by complete strangers with no apparent authority only convinces me to dig in my heels and not do whatever it is they say I have to do.

Well, look at what you're getting here. With you talking about how you're presenting yourself ("I'm a dedicated healer,") you're seeing peoples' reactions and the *why* of it (which you don't get if, say, someone just doesn't respond to you.)

 

You have to keep an idea of what's wanted and what  you're putting out there. There's a reason, after all, cars are named Mustang and Bronco and other exciting (or, granted, utilitarian, but usefully utilitarian) things in most cases rather than "model 2018 sedan 2" - and they try to avoid accidental names that are... less appealing. (Just ask anyone who owned a brown Ford Probe.)

 

I mean, going back to your OP:

 

12 hours ago, Miltonaut said:

Criticisms mainly focus on its lack of dps and how other powersets (e.g.: warmth) are more useful. It's a dedicated healer--it has some attacks, but that's not where the focus is. The purpose of a dedicated healer is to keep the rest of the team alive and kicking (or punching or blasting). I purposely chose controller over defender for the Phantom Army and Phantasm powers.

(snip)

12 hours ago, Miltonaut said:

Am I actually overlooking something? Or do they and I simply have different playstyles?

 

What people are telling you, basically, is that from experience (live and here,) the "Dedicated healer" might be... great (well, useful) through the teens, maybe even up to level 20. But after that it tends to be half a character, and not that effective or useful.

 

COH has *always* had this difference people have had to learn. Most MMOs go by the "holy trinity" of tank, DPS and healer. There, yes, you need someone focusing on keeping you alive... though there's often an "and buffed" to it, too. Here - we don't need that structure. The buffs and debuffs are important (and are often delivered through the attacks/controls that most people who call themselves "dedicated healers" or "pure healers" skip and/or don't slot.) You want shockingly effective, you get a team of emp/* Defenders (or corruptors) that get their rotation of their buffs set up. They're pretty much untouchable. (There's a group called Repeat Offenders. On live - maybe on here, too, I haven't caught up with them - one of their subgroups was called the "Green Machine." Dedicated to Empaths who did exactly this and basically turned themselves into regen blasters. A single emp/something defender might be a bit underwhelming. A team of them reinforcing each other? Frightening.)

 

So. In your case, Illusion/Emp by itself is not a bad combo. It's a fairly classic combination. (Not least for keeping *yourself* safe, with an inherent invisibility.) You mention PA and Phantasm, sure... but what *else* besides "and I'm a healer" are you bringing to the table? Are you just being invisible while throwing out green numbers and pets? Or have you taken and slotted your controls (yes, even the placeable fear, yes, even the PBAOE hold, yes, even the confuse) and the attack? How are your buffs? If people aren't getting hurt, are you doing more than just sitting back and waiting for PA to recharge?

 

You want to keep the rest of the team alive and kicking, you do it through being proactive (with your controls and buffs.)

 

And if you're doing that, drop that "Dedicated healer" tag if that's how you're advertising yourself. An ill/emp is welcome for all the other ways they can change fights. So be that.

[Doomguide2005]

Outside of concept, which I gather is important to @Miltonaut, the Medicine pool is wasted on an Empath given they can spam HO, HA rinse, repeat considerably faster than any combination of the pool powers.

 

High global recharge works very well for both Empathy and Illusion Control as well ... and one very good path to getting high recharge is +recharge set bonuses in your attacks.  Even if I were to never use or intend to use them on a dedicated "Healer" I'd slot and take them for that reason alone.  And full disclosure here I play very aggressive offensive minded  Empaths.  And I always have even before joining the RO Networks "Green Machine" they just opened my eyes just how offensive they can be (and yes @Greycatthey are around on Everlasting).

 

I also largely agree with Sir Myshkin and others about the state of Empathy in Incarnate play.   It's very hard for any one character to feel like they're having an impact but even more so for a set so built upon buffing teammates who can be so indifferent to outside buffs owing to building strongly for self reliance.  Incarnate abilities just add to this independence.

 

Play how and what you enjoy and find fun, it's a game dammit 😃.

 

[Sir Myshkin]

5 hours ago, Miltonaut said:

 

I remembered dedicated support from live, but I don't remember any of the dislike for it.

On Retail we also had several thousands more people playing throughout the day (albeit across more servers so it didn’t always feel so “busy”). The dislike of a dedicated healer was there, just not quite as profoundly as now, and that really comes down to the fact that there’s a lot more people capable of getting “Billion Inf Builds” here with a much more accessible market than before. Having said that, it really widens the divide of specialist focus builds when it comes to pretty much any support class, they can’t really just rest on using half their power sets.

 

5 hours ago, Miltonaut said:

I might could get ill/pain to work but the toon is already lvl 50 with all incarnates unlocked. Not excited about having to do all that again...

The struggle is real, but thankfully there’s a lot of resources at your disposal in the game right now that can make that trip faster. Keep in mind I’m only suggesting this, nothing more, it’s up to you to decide if you want to go through with it, but given that you’ve gone 50 levels with Ill/Emp, I think it would be a worthwhile experiment for you to take an Ill/Pain along the journey as well and see how different they are, how having not just a singular buff, but team buffs, plus AoE debuffs, dynamically shift your impact. You can obviously still keep the original and just roll this as a secondary version to try out.

 

From an RP perspective maybe make it a possessed version of your original, an ancestral spirit getting angsty and wanting to get back out into the world or something.

 

If you can get someone willing to help you PL into 20-something quickly to skip the dull drum of early levels, the important part where you should see the difference is in that 26-38 zone where the good powers reside for Pain on a Controller. And ultimately if you get to 45-50 and you still prefer the Empathy version, then you’ll know it’s still there available to you. 🙂 

[Mr. Vee]

I'm as much in the lolhealz camp as about anyone but there's no excuse for people being jerks to strangers just based on their build or playstyle. I've never seen any of this on my teams but then I only run TFs and only hit LFG if I can't fill it with people I know. Plenty of times a 'dedicated heal' player joins and no one ever gripes about it, but they probably feel pretty left out anyway from everyone zipping off and ignoring the "gather for ra" calls.

[Strawberry]

I won't lie and say there wasn't empath hate back in the day, especially on the forums, but in game I never see empath hate ever. In fact, most teams are incredibly happy to have an empath, even slotted out incarnate teams. Does this really happen to you in game? I could maybe understand on the forums.

[Nemu]

I am going to talk about skill level, something you may not like to hear.

 

Empathy has a fairly high skill ceiling. Most people that gravitate to the pure support playstyle play at the very baseline because they believe that they can be god's gift to teams just by watching the green bar and shout "gather for RA" every couple of minutes.

 

The reason I say Empathy requires a bit of skill is because a good empath needs to understand team composition, AT strengths/weaknesses, mob factions, and generally be observant about their teammates capabilities and skill level and the foes they face. Most people that play pure empaths lack that level of understanding and awareness. Here are a few examples:

 

-Clear mind the whole team when facing arachnos because they blind

-Adrenaline Boost the not fully IOed dominator so they can get perma-dom easier

-Clear mind the blasters and the controllers and the other squishies that lack mez protection PROACTIVELY, especially the ones that go into melee range a lot.

-Fortitude the teammates that seem to get hurt a lot.

 

Here are a few examples of what I see bad/average empaths do that good ones don't:

 

-Throw all the buffs on the tank/brute including clear mind meanwhile ignoring all the other squishies that could use those buffs. - Tanks/brutes and all melee ATs have mez protection so unless they are fighting mobs that blind, fear or confuse, clear mind is not needed. If a tank/brute is surviving just fine but another teammate is not then fortitude and other buffs are better suited for that teammate. Empaths that play like this still harbor the holy trinity mindset, a mindset that does not fit this game.

 

-Shout "gather for RA" every couple of minutes. Good ones don't expect the team to break up their flow just for RA, they find a spot where they can tag the most teammates and fire it off. Bonus points if you joust it in the heat of battle.

 

-Being "fair" with the buffs. Sounds all warm and fuzzy right? I'm spreading the love around and everyone will love me! This might sound harsh but give buffs to the people that need it first, and then spread it around.

 

-Being lazy with Clear Mind. If you play pure support you have plenty of time to apply clear mind to the ATs that lack mez protection proactively. Blasters will love you for it, so will other defenders/trollers with toggle debuffs. Back on live the lazy emps used to shout "type zzz if you are mezzed." and the blasters are like "yeah like I have time to type that before I get 2 shot" Nowadays I don't even see that anymore. The sad truth is that most people are used to not counting on empaths or any other support set that have an anti-mez to be used proactively on them. But that doesn't mean you can't break the current status quo and do exactly that.

 

Ill/emp is a great support combo, you help control the flow of battle and you get to throw buffs/heals out. I had one on live and it worked out very well.

 

Edited November 16, 2020 by Nemu

[ChocolateMercenary]

Do people look at Empathy and only see the first three powers? I mean people that play it and people the criticize it. Do they only see the first three powers?

[DSorrow]

I think the response you're seeing is a reaction to several things.

 

First, healing is the weakest source of support in CoH. The gameplay of CoH never really supported reactive sets thanks to comparatively long delivery times for most heals. It's also a "full time" job because you can't commit to an attack because that even further increases the delivery time of a much needed heal. So, because of that and the power of buffs it's just much more practical to get a teammate who can buff you once every two or four minutes to a point where your natural regeneration and incidental heals keep you topped off and spends the rest of the time helping you dispose of enemies.

 

Second, Empathy suffers a lot from being a support powerset that doesn't offer anything that isn't easily available through IOs. When you have soft capped defenses, no endurance worries, capped hit chance and enough recharge to run your preferred attack chain, Empathy can only offer you some extra buffer on those stats in case of debuffs. You didn't need the heals before IOs so you sure as hell don't need them now. The most valuable thing you're basically getting is the mediocre +DMG from Fortitude and Mez Prot from Clear Mind if you're a squishy. Obviously, in lower level and un-IO'd teams Empathy is much more beneficial.

 

When anyone who agrees with these viewpoints sees someone advertising themselves as a dedicated healer, it's pretty natural to draw the conclusions that the player doesn't know what kind of force multipliers are most valuable to teams in CoH. Furthermore, the term "dedicated healer" just sounds like you're committed to doing the least useful thing you can do in a team at the expense of more useful activities. My favorite analogy of this is somebody playing "dedicated medic" in an FPS game by using only med packs when some use of their gun would greatly reduce their team's need of said med packs.

 

This isn't to say that Empathy is a bad set or that healing is completely worthless, but I feel like advertising Ill/Emp as a dedicated healer just skips the best parts of the combo (crowd control and buffs) and creates the image of a player who doesn't understand the strengths of the character.

[Carnifax]

2 hours ago, Nemu said:

 

-Throw all the buffs on the tank/brute including clear mind meanwhile ignoring all the other squishies that could use those buffs. - Tanks/brutes and all melee ATs have mez protection so unless they are fighting mobs that blind, feat or confuse, clear mind is not needed. If a tank/brute is surviving just fine but another teammate is not then fortitude and other buffs are better suited for that teammate. Empaths that play like this still harbor the holy trinity mindset, a mindset that does not fit this game.

This is really important. I've been on my Staff/NRG Brute leading a team and told the Empath not to worry about casting Fort on me because he's basically beyond capped anyway. Unless a load of Seers show up and I actually start struggling give it to someone else. Turn the team Domi into God if they haven't themselves yet. Pick a Blapper or Blaster and make a Tankmage. 

 

As for a dedicated empath for Ill/Emp, if you need two rezzes in your life something is definitely wrong there. Medicine is total overkill. Get your mezzes going, including things like Spectral Terror which has oodles of -toHit in it. Group Invis can be annoying for frontliners but the extra defense it gives squishies is helpful. Leadership will also go a long way. Deceive is an incredibly useful power for dealing with annoying lieuts or minions with horrible buffs or debuffs. 

Edited November 16, 2020 by Carnifax

[roleki]

13 hours ago, TygerDarkstorm said:

Because, as mentioned by myself and others, this game doesn't require, need, or desire dedicated healers, not even on MSR's. You should be doing more than heal and waiting for green bars to move.

These may all be facts, but it's also a fact that only while soloing or as part of a duo would anyone even notice if a character was a "dedicated healer."  It's not a game that requires optimization from every (or any) character.  

[Carnifax]

1 hour ago, roleki said:

These may all be facts, but it's also a fact that only while soloing or as part of a duo would anyone even notice if a character was a "dedicated healer."  It's not a game that requires optimization from every (or any) character.  

Depends. Are they "rocking the aura"? 

 

That's usually a giveaway. 

[Furiant]

The fact is, for all I hear about healing being irrelevant in the rarified end game speed run scenario, I have never once been in a group where somebody didn't need healing; and I can count on the fingers of one hand those runs in which nobody died.

 

Maybe I just don't have access to this mythical strata of end game (on any of my characters) but the world I live in definitely appreciates empaths and bubblers who can also contribute some dps or control or debuffs.

 

Play your toon who can heal, heal when needed, and find a way to contribute otherwise. If you can do that, I'm glad you're on the team.