Why beast is bad?

[Radamond]

So after finding out this gem of a server and jumping in, I found out that there are several power sets that weren't around when I played on live, like demon summoning and beast mastery  :o

I came by the forums to do some research and I see that you wonderful experienced players are giving some bashing on the poor wolf handlers and I really would like to know why. I can see how melee & lethal only can be a bit detrimental, but isn't the dmg output compensated with pack mentality and the crit buff?

Is it at least viable for solo and grp play(I tend to do some solo mishs when time is short)? What secondary would pair up nicely with it and keep me a useful team member?

 

Thanks in advance ;)

[Adeon Hawkwood]

I think Lazarillo said it best in the thread about Mercs:

A "bad" Mastermind set is like, I dunno, a "bad" winning lottery ticket.  Sure, you might not be set for life, but it's still a pretty good thing.  Mercs can handle just about anything you throw at 'em, just maybe not as well as bots or demons.

 

Beasts will be fine for both solo and group play, it's just not as good as sets like Bots and Demons. It's probably worth picking one of the stronger secondaries to give some damage mitigation though.

[Redlynne]

For min/max players, Beasts is "bad" for their egos (and their id) when EVERYTHING doesn't live up to their (nigh impossible) expectations of superlative e-peen-ness on maximal overdrive.

 

For casual players, Beasts are "fine" for being able to enjoy playing the game.

 

Which type of player you are is left as an exercise for the disinterested observer.

[Radamond]

Thanks for the replies, time to see if I can make something aesthetically pleasing that can also toss birds on people's heads.  ;D

[Jon]

People are definitely overly dramatic about it. I wouldn't say Beast Summoning is bad at all, but the pets primarily fight in melee range so it they may feel squishy depending on your secondary just because of the higher risk that comes from being in melee. Beasts in general have great damage outside of Fortify Pack, and they have some good built-in resistance that works well with support sets that can layer on top of that. Beasts/Sonic is a fun, tanky example that I was playing as my main at the end of Live - it really comes into its own with Incarnates once you can get Rebirth.

[Solvernia]

beast is bad because they're melee pets and melee pets die more than ranged pets

 

beast is really good if you're /kin secondary tho

 

please avoid listening to toxic statements such as:

For min/max players, Beasts is "bad" for their egos (and their id) when EVERYTHING doesn't live up to their (nigh impossible) expectations of superlative e-peen-ness on maximal overdrive.

 

[scran]

beast is really good if you're /kin secondary tho

 

Maybe in large parties where others can cover your defenses.. but I dont think kin is a good solo primary in general.  Recharge doesnt work on pets, and with the limited dmg cap on pets, even fulcrum is kinda meh.  The -res most other sets have probably does a good job at getting the same effect.  Even the res kin effect doesnt include lethal.  In large groups that cover your weak defenses kin is great cause.. well having a kin in the party is generally better than not having a kin in the party.  I have a 50 nin/kin and have tried all sorts of crowd control and provoking combinations.  pets just drop like flies solo if you up the difficulty even a bit and even a minion ends up not being crowd controlled.

 

 

With the res special IOs that give +35% res to all, a res secondary and inherent res some primary sets can hit res cap which makes pets a lot easier to heal.

 

Beasts have S/L (but the wolves have less at 16% rather than 26, still cap-able though).  Mercs have S/L. Demons have S/L.  Nins have none (lol), Necro has smash but not lethal plus a ton of others.  Bots has lethal but not smash. Thugs have none except the bruiser that has s/l.

 

S/L res primaries pair well with res sets, nature is solid with beasts so far.  I need more cdr, but when you have the absorb plus HOT going they are practically unkillable.

 

I also think all MMs should be provoking bosses/elitebosses/AVs to prevent oneshots on pets.  Though with max resists they might still not get oneshot.

 

I have a 40 beast/nature so far and its working fine.  Most of your aoe comes from the dire wolf.  And things ramp up once you have all pets so they can better stack pack mentality.  Each stack is 2% dmg and 2% crit chance which adds up.  If you pickup some of MM attacks you can keep pack mentality higher.  The hawk in particular can be used for force feedback.  And if you want to do damage it can fit a lot of dmg procs which bypass AT damage penalties. With only one stack of wild growth (cause i still need recharge). Primary attacks also have -fly.

 

Beasts also have about 10% inate defense, plus the special ios and a modest -10% hit from something (like spore cloud) they are aoe def capped.

[Nightmarer]

Also, being the pets melee almost exclusively, I think Storm could make a good combo with Beast Mastery

[Radamond]

beast is really good if you're /kin secondary tho

 

S/L res primaries pair well with res sets, nature is solid with beasts so far.  I need more cdr, but when you have the absorb plus HOT going they are practically unkillable.

 

I also think all MMs should be provoking bosses/elitebosses/AVs to prevent oneshots on pets.  Though with max resists they might still not get oneshot.

 

 

i was wondering about that. Can't poison get you covered in that front since the word around the web is that it's the ultimate debuffer? Would Beast/Poison be suitable for solo and grp since you can debuff alot and your pets are melee so the gas cloud would always be affecting at least one target?

[Radamond]

Also, being the pets melee almost exclusively, I think Storm could make a good combo with Beast Mastery

 

Never really looked into storm cause I just thought it would be a bunch of knockbacks and I know how much groups love those... Would you please elaborate?

[Mikazuki]

I'm currently working through the numbers and will post something more concrete at a later date, but overall beast might be quite amazing.

 

Extremely focused and doesnt waste time on crowd control, base numbers offer a lot more damage and defense(compared to ninjas, Minions and bosses have twice the defense but jounins have a bit more base defense compared to the lioness)

 

As far as mastermind terms go, they got the tier 1 and 2 pets of necromancy, added base defense to them, removed ranged attacks, and mixed them with another high powered melee tier 3 pet. All of them having an ability that gives immob resistance and increases movement speed(plus damage and other things)

 

And theres also the pack mentality and fortify pack mechanics. which can give you stacking damage/crit chance numbers or just plain extra defense.

 

 

Honestly from my point of view, people were too tired from melee mastermind pets being suboptimal just dismissed beasts as just another one back in 2012, But so far trying it out and running the numbers, this might actually be Demon-Level. (Hard to compare it to the safeness of bots and sheer power of thugs right now.)

[StrikerFox]

Also, being the pets melee almost exclusively, I think Storm could make a good combo with Beast Mastery

 

Never really looked into storm cause I just thought it would be a bunch of knockbacks and I know how much groups love those... Would you please elaborate?

 

There's actually a couple IOs you can slot to alleviate Storm's KB issue. Overwhelming and Sudden Acceleration both change knockback to knockdown. Overwhelming is a unique but I'm pretty sure we can slot multiple Sudden Acceleration procs. We can get Overwhelming free as a reward drop from the Blockbuster event; Sudden Acceleration is available at /AH.

 

Is there a list of Beast pet powers? I never knew quite how to slot them.

[scran]

Extremely focused and doesnt waste time on crowd control, base numbers offer a lot more damage and defense(compared to ninjas, Minions and bosses have twice the defense but jounins have a bit more base defense compared to the lioness)

 

Am not sure about more damage than ninjas... ninjas do some crazy damage.  Two permanently stealthed jounins mow things down.  Two stealthed jounins usually means a lot of dead genins though.

[Clave Dark 5]

please avoid listening to toxic statements such as:

For min/max players, Beasts is "bad" for their egos (and their id) when EVERYTHING doesn't live up to their (nigh impossible) expectations of superlative e-peen-ness on maximal overdrive.

 

I'd second that quote.    Touched a nerve?  =)

[Ragnar]

The good thing about Beasts is that you know what happens in a fight. You know they will all be in the thick of things, no exception.

And with close to 30% S/L Resist on the Lt.+ Pets and the special resist IOs you look at 65% Resist out of the Box. 55% on the Minion Pets.

Paired with /FF, softcapping the Pets to all positionals is easy with their inherent 10%+ defense, you look at very sturdy Pets.

 

Downside is, they have so few attacks that there is like a 3 seconds Gap in their attack chain where they are just standing around and look stupid. And no ranged attacks beside one on the Boss pet.

You need something from the Ancil Pools to counter this weakness like Leviathan Mastery (good Immobilize and Hold), which also enables yourself be softcapped to Melee/Ranged/AoE Defense as well as S/L Resists.

 

This is what I am running right now, it works well enough. (Edit: Actually, the Primary can be swapped with anything .. The /FF side of the build will work with everything).

 

Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.962

http://www.cohplanner.com/

 

Click this DataLink to open the build!

 

Clawsome: Level 50 Mutation Mastermind

Primary Power Set: Beast Mastery

Secondary Power Set: Force Field

Power Pool: Leaping

Power Pool: Medicine

Power Pool: Leadership

Power Pool: Fighting

Ancillary Pool: Leviathan Mastery

 

Villain Profile:

Level 1: Summon Wolves -- BldMnd-Acc/Dmg(A), BldMnd-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(3), BldMnd-Acc/EndRdx(3), BldMnd-Dmg(5), SvrRgh-PetResDam(5), CaltoArm-+Def(Pets)(7)

Level 1: Force Bolt -- Acc-I(A)

Level 2: Deflection Shield -- RedFrt-Def/EndRdx(A), RedFrt-Def/Rchg(7), RedFrt-EndRdx/Rchg(9), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(9), RedFrt-Def(11), RedFrt-EndRdx(11)

Level 4: Insulation Shield -- RedFrt-Def/EndRdx(A), RedFrt-Def/Rchg(15), RedFrt-EndRdx/Rchg(15), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(17), RedFrt-Def(17), RedFrt-EndRdx(19)

Level 6: Train Beasts -- EndRdx-I(A)

Level 8: Call Hawk -- Rui-Acc/Dmg(A), Rui-Dmg/EndRdx(19), Rui-Dmg/Rchg(21), Rui-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(21), Rui-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(23)

Level 10: Super Jump -- BlsoftheZ-ResKB(A)

Level 12: Summon Lions -- BldMnd-Acc/Dmg(A), BldMnd-Dmg(23), BldMnd-Acc/EndRdx(25), BldMnd-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(25), ExpRnf-+Res(Pets)(27), EdcoftheM-PetDef(27)

Level 14: Combat Jumping -- GifoftheA-Def(A), GifoftheA-Run+(50)

Level 16: Aid Other -- Mrc-Heal/EndRdx(A), Mrc-Heal(29), Mrc-EndRdx/Rchg(29), Mrc-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(31), Mrc-Heal/Rchg(31)

Level 18: Fortify Pack -- RechRdx-I(A)

Level 20: Dispersion Bubble -- RedFrt-Def/EndRdx(A), RedFrt-Def/Rchg(31), RedFrt-EndRdx/Rchg(33), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(33), RedFrt-Def(33), RedFrt-EndRdx(34)

Level 22: Maneuvers -- RedFrt-Def(A), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx(34), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(34)

Level 24: Tactics -- GssSynFr--ToHit(A), GssSynFr--ToHit/Rchg(36), GssSynFr--ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx(36), GssSynFr--Rchg/EndRdx(36), GssSynFr--ToHit/EndRdx(37), GssSynFr--Build%(37)

Level 26: Summon Dire Wolf -- SprMarofS-Dmg(A), SprMarofS-Acc/Dmg(37), SprMarofS-Acc/EndRdx(39), SprMarofS-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(39), SprMarofS-EndRdx/+Resist/+Regen(39), SprCmmoft-Rchg/PetAoEDef(40)

Level 28: Boxing -- Empty(A)

Level 30: Tough -- StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), GldArm-3defTpProc(40), Ags-ResDam(40), Ags-ResDam/EndRdx(42), Ags-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(42)

Level 32: Tame Beasts -- EndRdx-I(A)

Level 35: School of Sharks -- EnfOpr-Acc/Rchg(A), EnfOpr-EndRdx/Immob(42), EnfOpr-Acc/EndRdx(43), EnfOpr-Immob/Rng(43), EnfOpr-Acc/Immob/Rchg(43), EnfOpr-Acc/Immob(45)

Level 38: Weave -- RedFrt-Def(A), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx(45), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(45)

Level 41: Shark Skin -- Ags-ResDam(A), Ags-ResDam/EndRdx(46), Ags-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(46)

Level 44: Spirit Shark Jaws -- Lck-Acc/Hold(A), Lck-Acc/Rchg(48), Lck-Rchg/Hold(48), Lck-EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(48), Lck-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(50), Lck-%Hold(50)

Level 47: Assault -- EndRdx-I(A)

Level 49: Personal Force Field -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A)

Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)

Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)

Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- EndRdx-I(A)

Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)

Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)

Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)

Level 1: Sprint -- Clr-Stlth(A)

Level 1: Supremacy

Level 2: Rest -- RechRdx-I(A)

Level 4: Ninja Run

Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)

Level 2: Health -- Mrc-Rcvry+(A), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(13)

Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)

Level 2: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A), EndMod-I(13), EndMod-I(46)

Level 50: Reactive Core Flawless Interface

Level 50: Longbow Core Superior Ally

Level 50: Support Core Embodiment

Level 50: Musculature Core Paragon

------------

 

 

 

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[Dixa]

 

 

Downside is, they have so few attacks that there is like a 3 seconds Gap in their attack chain where they are just standing around and look stupid. And no ranged attacks beside one on the Boss pet.

You need something from the Ancil Pools to counter this weakness like Leviathan Mastery (good Immobilize and Hold), which also enables yourself be softcapped to Melee/Ranged/AoE Defense as well as S/L Resists.

 

 

 

this is why beasts are actually bad and why their overall dps is extremely low.

[ed_anger]

please avoid listening to toxic statements such as:

For min/max players, Beasts is "bad" for their egos (and their id) when EVERYTHING doesn't live up to their (nigh impossible) expectations of superlative e-peen-ness on maximal overdrive.

 

Sorry, I agree more with Red on this. That's the great thing about CoH, many paths are viable and the game is about more than min/maxing. Min/max culture can be incredibly toxic and often ends up forcing players into the same cookie-cutter builds.

 

That said, knowing the comparative facts is useful, as long as that's not the only factor.

[ed_anger]

There's actually a couple IOs you can slot to alleviate Storm's KB issue. Overwhelming and Sudden Acceleration both change knockback to knockdown.

 

Did not know this, thanks.

[Galaxy Brain]

please avoid listening to toxic statements such as:

For min/max players, Beasts is "bad" for their egos (and their id) when EVERYTHING doesn't live up to their (nigh impossible) expectations of superlative e-peen-ness on maximal overdrive.

 

Sorry, disagree and agree with Red on this. That's the great thing about CoH, many paths are viable and the game is about more than min/maxing. Min/max culture can be incredibly toxic and often ends up forcing players into the same cookie-cutter builds.

 

That said, knowing the comparative facts is useful, as long as that's not the only factor.

 

Same here. While the MinMax mindset can out some off, we all naturally tend to do this even at the most casual level. If a set feels worse than another you tried, it suddenly becomes less fun.

[Scarlet Shocker]

There's actually a couple IOs you can slot to alleviate Storm's KB issue. Overwhelming and Sudden Acceleration both change knockback to knockdown.

 

Did not know this, thanks.

 

KB is incredibly useful, especially if you solo a lot. It's a great way of preventing your foes from touching you, and thus hurting you. Most players struggle with it because they want their opponent locked down right in front of them. Don't disregard its value. And if you want to cause complete chaos you could go for a FF/Storm troller, or an En/Storm corruptor and throw the entire map around! :D

[ed_anger]

KB is incredibly useful, especially if you solo a lot. It's a great way of preventing your foes from touching you, and thus hurting you. Most players struggle with it because they want their opponent locked down right in front of them. Don't disregard its value. And if you want to cause complete chaos you could go for a FF/Storm troller, or an En/Storm corruptor and throw the entire map around! :D

 

I'm usually playing grouped, and it tends to piss people off. If I can convert to knockdown some powers have just become more useful, for me.

[Tankshock]

I think Time might be the best Beast secondary, and certainly makes them solid.  Farsight easily gets them past the defense cap, with plenty of room for debuffs.  Add in over 50 Resistance and being in melee is not a drawback.

 

I would not avoid them for fear of being underpowered, but the right secondary will have a big impact on your playstyle.

[Dispari]

Having played Beasts a bunch lately (and having played several other MMs to 50), I think I can say it's actually surprisingly good.

 

I see a lot of "beasts bad" from people who haven't even played the set. They look at the fact that they're melee and decide to write them off. I think that's a mistake.

 

Some sets are notoriously bad like ninjas, but the reasons they're bad are addressed in the beasts set. For one, the pets have good base RES and DEF values (at least 17% S/L/C RES and 10% DEF all which the two lions buff even higher) and four of them have heals or self-RES powers, so they don't die to a random strike like ninjas would. Also if you really want, you can boost their DEF even higher by using the 18 power, though I rarely feel the need.

 

Their lack of range also means they don't just stand around using their one ranged power instead of doing actual damage. They also have a very high base movement speed and can easily run things down, so their lack of range isn't really a problem. Even if you fight things that fly, you're given powers that do -fly to deal with it. They do a lot of -DEF, -ToHit, and -recharge, and on the high end they also stun and fear. And it's hard to overstate this but their damage is EXTREMELY HIGH. If you just stand around watching them, even without any buffs from their master, they'll regularly go over +70% damage and sometimes over +100%. And they can all crit.

 

I wouldn't say they're the best MM set. Thugs, bots, and demons all have some sexy things going for them. But I'd say at minimum they're mid-tier if not leaning toward the high end.

[desarix]

The biggest issue with melee pets is the AOE they are exposed to when they go into melee range. So they are more susceptible to huge damage spikes and all of them get hurt at the same time since they are all near the source of the damage. This is one of the reasons people say beasts are weak.

[You]

Which one is better: beast trap, cold or rad?

 

Thanks!