Why were the Echo zone beacons removed from bases?

[Starforge]

18 minutes ago, JKPhage said:

In the end, it doesn't really bother me at all, because Ouro can be access at the drop of a hat if you want to go echo exploring

Pretty much my take. Yeah, it would be nice to have kept them in but it's not some huge inconvenience now to pop an Ouro portal and take a five second run to the back of the building and get to the Echo zones.

[Greycat]

8 minutes ago, Starforge said:

Pretty much my take. Yeah, it would be nice to have kept them in but it's not some huge inconvenience now to pop an Ouro portal and take a five second run to the back of the building and get to the Echo zones.

Though for the original poster, "convenience" wasn't the issue. They'd set up (as I understand) part of their base a specific way and that access fed into it a specific way which now does not work.  From their own description:

 

Quote

Some of us base builders were using them for concept reasons - like in my group's base, I had them hooked up to a 'magic history book,' and in another base in my coalition, there was a 'memory crystal' that led to the Echo zones when clicked.

 

That isn't replaced with "use an ouro portal," no matter how convenient it may be.

[UltraAlt]

I'm not going to go digging around to find it.

Someone probably did and posted it here at any rate.

 

The Echo are alternate timelines, and the zone teleport system isn't powerful enough to travel to alternate timelines.

You have to go to the Ouroboros first before you start fiddling with the timestreams....

 

..well ... unless you go to the Midnighters' Club, so maybe they should fix that as well - and move the portal to Crimerioa (or however you spell it) to the Oroborus.

 

Edited December 30, 2020 by UltraAlt
corrections

[Placta]

1 hour ago, JKPhage said:

Considering you couldn't even use echo transporters in your bases on Live, these were likely added as simple convenience for players before Homecoming came to the wider public's knowledge.

Yes, you could. When Galaxy was removed and DA revamped, old beacons to both zones were changed* to point to the echoes (and you could place new echo beacons).

 

* Eventually. For a while after i21 the arcane beacon for Galaxy still sent people to Galaxy-That-Was, which was set to kick them to Atlas after a few seconds.

[Tiger Shadow]

22 hours ago, Placta said:

TUNNEL to Night Ward.

Enter Midnighter Mansion.

Base portal to Croatoa or FF.

Enter Midnighter Mansion.

Take the crystal to Ouroboros.

Oro portal back to Atlas.

 

Just did this on a level 2, mostly fresh out of the tutorial (I took the time to get Atlas Tour Guide) character. No combat the whole way. (It might be tougher redside.)

 

Redside it goes:

 

TUNNEL to Night Ward.

Enter Midnighter Mansion.

TUNNEL to Cap.

Enter Midnighter Mansion.

Take the crystal to Ouroboros.

Oro portal back to Mercy.

 

And one that works both sides:

 

Log out newbie somewhere safe.

Log in higher level character, go to where newbie logged out, drop portal, log out.

Log in newbie, click portal.

[Flashtoo]

On 12/16/2020 at 12:58 PM, UltraAlt said:

I'm not going to go digging around to find it.

Someone probably did and posted it here at any rate.

 

The Echo are alternate timelines, and the zone teleport system is powerful enough to travel to alternate timelines.

You have to go to the Ouroboros first before you start fiddling with the timestreams....

 

..well ... unless you go to the Midnighters' Club, so many they should fix that as well.

 

 

I'm going to assume you meant to say "the zone teleport system isn't powerful enough to travel to alternate timelines." Frankly, that doesn't hold water. First, Praetoria is an alternate timeline, and we have zone teleporters that go there. Second, game lore establishes that there are twelve ways of engaging in time travel, and in a lore dump, a dev stated that one of these ways is "whatever method your character uses." Give me one good reason that method shouldn't be "I have a time machine in my base."

Edited December 29, 2020 by Flashtoo

[Starforge]

4 hours ago, Flashtoo said:

First, Praetoria is an alternate timeline

Dimension, not timeline.

[Flashtoo]

1 hour ago, Starforge said:

Dimension, not timeline.

My understanding is that alternate dimensions happen when timelines diverge. Is this stated not to be the case?

[Starhammer]

For all the speculation about whether it's supported by lore, I just want to know what about the mechanics of the game justified doing the work to make this change. It sems like more effort than could be justified by lore alone, considering all the other inconsistencies.

[Grindingsucks]

I don't mind losing them.  I never used any of them, except for Echo Galaxy, to get the Ouro portal. 

 

Having said that, I do agree that the reason given for removing them (telport beacons not able to be used for time travel) doesn't gel.  Considering that the medi-porter can pull you from the timestream back to your base, this is clearly untrue, both from  a literal mechanical and from a lore standpoint.

[Player2]

On 12/16/2020 at 3:58 PM, UltraAlt said:

I'm not going to go digging around to find it.

Someone probably did and posted it here at any rate.

 

The Echo are alternate timelines, and the zone teleport system is powerful enough to travel to alternate timelines.

You have to go to the Ouroboros first before you start fiddling with the timestreams....

 

..well ... unless you go to the Midnighters' Club, so many they should fix that as well.

 

Can't teleport through time?  Try using the mission teleport, LRT, or other teleport powers to get out of the Echo zones, Ouroboros, or Cimerora.  Seems like the zone teleport system is powerful enough to travel through time after all.

[UltraAlt]

20 hours ago, Flashtoo said:

I'm going to assume you meant to say "the zone teleport system isn't powerful enough to travel to alternate timelines." 

Yep. thanks.

Posting in the forums when I'm tired is a bad habit. But here I am doing it again.

 

20 hours ago, Flashtoo said:

Praetoria is an alternate timeline

 

Praetoria is on the same timeline as far I know. It is, however, in another dimension. 

So yeah, way make it convenient. Take out all the teleporters that go to Praetoria.

 

20 hours ago, Flashtoo said:

Second, game lore establishes

Old game lore, or Homecoming Game lore?

 

The times they are a changin'.

 

20 hours ago, Flashtoo said:

Give me one good reason that method shouldn't be "I have a time machine in my base."

 

I think they did away with the base equipment that would allow you to travel through time form your base.

Sometimes a blue police box is just a blue police box.

 

14 hours ago, Flashtoo said:

My understanding is that alternate dimensions happen when timelines diverge. Is this stated not to be the case?

Depends on who's hypothesis you are using.

If you are going with your hypothesis there are an infinite number of dimensions because any possible variation on any level would lead to an alternate timeline branching ever more variant from the original as the timeline progresses. Anyone traveling back in time would increase the branching.

Fortunately, there are only two dimensions in City of Heroes - Primal Earth and Praetorian Earth.

The Praetorians had to build special equipment to attempt to bridge the gap and start their invasion plans. Luckily, those plans were mostly thwarted other than the clock work situation in higher level hero-side missions.

 

6 hours ago, Grindingsucks said:

Having said that, I do agree that the reason given for removing them (telport beacons not able to be used for time travel) doesn't gel.  Considering that the medi-porter can pull you from the timestream back to your base, this is clearly untrue, both from  a literal mechanical and from a lore standpoint.

 

Looks like we need a hospital in the Ouroboros, and we need to block the option of going to a base when someone is in the Ouroboros, on an Ouroboros mission, or are in Crimeroia. That includes falling in battle and base teleporter.

You would have to exit out of Cimerora through the Ouroboros and then leave the Ouroboros and return to the Primal Earth before you could use your teleports again.

 

... or maybe we should just go with what the DEVs have set-up and put so much of their own time into and stop hassling them about it.

[Grindingsucks]

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... or maybe we should just go with what the DEVs have set-up and put so much of their own time into and stop hassling them about it.

 I mean... I'm not sure how I'm hassling anyone about anything.  As I stated in the part of my reply that you didn't quote, I don't care whether the zones are there or not.  I'm just saying the reason that was offered for taking them out doesn't make any sense, given how the medi-porters function.  That's not a criticism or even an opinion- it's a statement of objective fact.

Quote

Looks like we need a hospital in the Ouroboros, and we need to block the option of going to a base when someone is in the Ouroboros, on an Ouroboros mission, or are in Crimeroia. That includes falling in battle and base teleporter.

I don't care if they do.  It wouldn't bother me in the slightest.  Perhaps, after reading this, they will.  If they did, then their own stated position on removing the zones would be self-consistent.

 

[Greycat]

4 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

Fortunately, there are only two dimensions in City of Heroes - Primal Earth and Praetorian Earth.

 

You're ... far from correct in that. We officially (via story arc) visit *multiple* dimensions outside of Praetoria (though some of the dimensions are visited because of that.) For example:

 

- "Nictus" or "War Wolf" Earth

- Battle Maiden, as I recall, is from a different dimension than Praetoria ("Warrior Earth")

- Axis America's Earth

- The Hydra are taken from another dimension.

- The Rikti are from another dimension.

- There's a dimension that is sped up by either Antimatter or Neuron (I think Neuron) that drives its natives crazy because of it.

- Nemesis has a few dimensional counterparts, one of which had his automatons slaughter everyone else when he died

- The Shadow Shard

- Whatever dimension Protean is using to make multiple clones of the character in Jenny Adair's arc

- The Psychic Clockwork King's world

 

... and that's *just* off the top of my head. I mean, other dimensions are the entire *point* of Portal Corp. It's also the "secret" of Supradyne - a *small* percentage of users end up actually seeing across dimensions. (As I recall, they don't keep their sanity.) I seem to recall this being part of why Dr. Webb actually started Portal Corp.

 

Also, several of those dimensions can be seen as different timelines - after all, something different happened and changed the course of history. Getting to and from the dimension that's sped up would *necessarily* put you in a different time from ours, since if the day is (say) 1/3 as long (it's hinted at being faster,) it's not just "different series of events but the date is the same," as it would be for Praetoria or Axis America, but the actual *time* is different - Portal would have to pull you back from the (relative) future to the (primal) present.

 

4 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

Old game lore, or Homecoming Game lore?

I don't recall Homecoming actually changing lore. They may have added little pieces (via story arcs) but nothing's really *changed.* And nothing relevant to this.

 

Though if we want to stick with "lore says," well, if their excuse is a "mysterious surge" knocked out access to the Echo zones, they're going to have to consider impact on some of those arcs I mentioned. And even *if* they want to stick with that for ... "official" time access, that should still have zero impact on player bases and access. If Flashtoo's access was magical (the "book" mentioned in the OP,) why would that be affected? Does this affect people with time travel characters - especially with a literal time *manipulation* powerset inspiring them? (And even those without, I have a thief/assassin whose blades affect time - hard for a heart to beat if part of it is stuck in a moment a minute ago.) Is that now verboten except through Ouro?

 

Also. The argument that "the portal/teleport system isn't powerful enough to visit alternate timelines" (and all the cascading followon from that) doesn't really matter if you're (IC) not *using* that system. It's like saying "Cars can't drive over the ocean" to someone taking a boat to get somewhere as reason they shouldn't be able to reach their destination. 

 

 

[srmalloy]

7 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

I think they did away with the base equipment that would allow you to travel through time form your base.

Sometimes a blue police box is just a blue police box.

The Pillar of Ice and Fire base item.

[Flashtoo]

15 hours ago, Starhammer said:

For all the speculation about whether it's supported by lore, I just want to know what about the mechanics of the game justified doing the work to make this change. It sems like more effort than could be justified by lore alone, considering all the other inconsistencies.

Yes - this. To remove a feature requires taking the time and effort to remove it. It makes no sense to do that without a mechanical or code-related reason. If the reason for the removal is "The teleport system broke when we added this many new beacons, so we had to get rid of some" then that's fine, but for god's sake, tell us, don't just leave us with "we took away your toys because we don't want you to have it!"

[UltraAlt]

6 hours ago, srmalloy said:

The Pillar of Ice and Fire base item.

I thought they removed that from bases. (I don't use the thing)

Is that still in there?

 

Guess the DEVs need to remove that too in order to satisfy the few that remain to debate this.

[UltraAlt]

9 hours ago, Greycat said:

You're ... far from correct in that. We officially (via story arc) visit *multiple* dimensions outside of Praetoria (though some of the dimensions are visited because of that.) For example:

 

- "Nictus" or "War Wolf" Earth

- Battle Maiden, as I recall, is from a different dimension than Praetoria ("Warrior Earth")

- Axis America's Earth

- The Hydra are taken from another dimension.

- The Rikti are from another dimension.

- There's a dimension that is sped up by either Antimatter or Neuron (I think Neuron) that drives its natives crazy because of it.

- Nemesis has a few dimensional counterparts, one of which had his automatons slaughter everyone else when he died

- The Shadow Shard

- Whatever dimension Protean is using to make multiple clones of the character in Jenny Adair's arc

- The Psychic Clockwork King's world

I stand corrected

 

However, can you get to any of these through a base teleport beacon (Other than the Shadow Shard - and I think that was added after the change maybe)?

 

The Hydra are from another dimension?

I thought the Rikti were from another planet. They got here on dimension ships and not spaceships?

 

Honestly, I would consider most of those pocket dimensions.

 

And once again, that is teleporting to another dimension and not another point in the time stream.

 

Regardless, I still fall back on that we should stop bothering the DEVs about this.

 

9 hours ago, Greycat said:

Though if we want to stick with "lore says," well, if their excuse is a "mysterious surge" knocked out access to the Echo zones

Lore issue resolved.

[CrudeVileTerror]

"True Rikti" are extraterrestrial AND from another dimension (it remains to be seen if there are "True Rikti" in the Primal Dimension).

The Rikti that invaded the Primal Dimension are converted humans from Rikti Earth.  The majority of Rikti that continue to fight on Primal Earth are converts from The Lost.

At least that's my reading of the lore presented, sourced additionally from the Lore Bible and A.M.A.s.

 

But the topic on hand . . . there's a LOT of inconsistency, both narratively and strictly from a pure gameplay standpoint, when it comes to this decision to remove the Echo Zones from Base Telepads.

It really doesn't add up any way you slice it.

[Darmian]

21 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

I thought they removed that from bases. (I don't use the thing)

Is that still in there?

 

Guess the DEVs need to remove that too in order to satisfy the few that remain to debate this.

Sarcasm hopefully 🙂

[Greycat]

3 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

I The Hydra are from another dimension?

I thought the Rikti were from another planet. They got here on dimension ships and not spaceships?

Yes, and yes, both were different dimensions. From Paragonwiki (itself copied from the old COH site) :

 

Quote

The fact that the Rikti Invasion is over for the time being does not mean that the other-dimensional invaders are cleansed from the city. In fact, quite the opposite is true. No one knows for sure how many Rikti still lurk beneath the streets of Paragon City and other great battleground cities like Rome and Kuala Lumpur. Some estimates put the number at a few thousand. Others suggest that there are ten or twenty times that many still menacing the planet. While the danger of total worldwide enslavement to an alien race seems to have passed for the time being, the Rikti still present a daily and ever-growing threat.

 

And -

 

Quote

Higher level contacts reveal that the Rikti are in fact descended from humanity. In their own dimension, an advanced alien species of unknown origin converted the humans of the Rikti dimension into what they are now. The Rikti are born as what we consider ordinary, but around adolescence changes begin, and they begin to morph into full Rikti aliens. To this end, humans of Prime Earth may also be converted into Rikti, but usually adults must go through years of regimen before becoming a Rikti citizen. The Restructurist Rikti faction ignores this unlike their Traditionalist opposition, and use Rikti converts as soldiers.

 

(just to touch on Crudeville's point - it's not a majority, even though we see a *lot* of Lost.)

 

So now you know. And as we all know, that's the *other* half of the battle, aside from the red and blue lasers. 🙂

[CrudeVileTerror]

I dunno . . . I think we've defeated well over 20,000 Rikti in Paragon City over the past eight to fifteen years.  They gotta make up those numbers from somewhere, right?

[UltraAlt]

7 hours ago, Darmian said:

Sarcasm hopefully 🙂

Nope.

 

Either the DEVs are left alone, or all the situations that cause a debate need to be removed.

There won't be a reversion so those seem to be the two options.

[Darmian]

23 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

Nope.

 

Either the DEVs are left alone, or all the situations that cause a debate need to be removed.

There won't be a reversion so those seem to be the two options.

Left alone then. Because there's no debate here.

[Greycat]

Or, y'know, people put in ideas and questions regardless and people feel free to debate without anyone putting up ultimatums they have no say in executing.