Weekly Discussion 84: Kinetic Melee

[Galaxy Brain]

14 minutes ago, Safehouse said:

Okay, cool, thanks for clarifying. The visuals and the numbers in your previous post help too! Always appreciate seeing the data 🙂 I just wasn't sure I had the right understanding of it. So from my persepctive, even if I'm able to perform my next action almost immediately after unleashing burst, that looong start-up before the hit just feels too much. Maybe making it function a little more like whirling mace and fire sword circle is all that would be needed, but right now it really does feel so slow and laggy.

Exactly, it may be worth speeding up the start up and increasing the end lag if that makes sense! The fact that it hits so late is the issue.

[Safehouse]

1 minute ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Exactly, it may be worth speeding up the start up and increasing the end lag if that makes sense! The fact that it hits so late is the issue.

Makes total sense to me, and I'd be 100% in support 👍🏼

[siolfir]

2 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

 

Burst on the other hand is allllll Start-Up before unleashing the attack/hit, but then you can act nearly immediately once it unleashes. 

 

If I had to guess (there is a stat for this but I cannot find it at this sec), FSC actually "hits" around the ~1.6 second mark of it's 2.67s animation, while Burst hits well over 2 seconds into it's 2.67s animation. So while they are the same animation/activation, FSC is actually a second faster to strike.

Name	Animation	TimeHit	Damage	Recharge	Radius
Fire Sword Circle	2.67	1.2	126.3	20	10
Typhoon's Edge	2.27	0.5	117.7	12	8
Spin	2.5	1.2	113.7	9.2	8
The Lotus Drops	1.83	0.83	94.47	14	8
Burst	2.67	2.17	89.93	15	8
Whirling Hands	2.5	1.2	81.33	14	8
Whirling Mace	2.67	1.2	80.58	14	8
Eye of the Storm	2.57	0.3	76.98	17	10

 

You already illustrated this, but I added a column to the chart earlier that includes TimeHit, which is when the damage is applied after the animation starts and what you were probably thinking of in the highlighted part of the quote. You are correct in saying that FSC hits nearly a second earlier than Burst despite the same animation time, but were a bit off on how much recovery time each power has.

 

Concentrated Strike's TimeHit is 2.53 seconds - that's the full animation time of the sped-up Total Focus (which now has a 1.77 second TimeHit); the old 3.3 second animation Total Focus had a TimeHit of 2.3 seconds, and the slow Energy Transfer hits 2.2 seconds into the 2.67 second animation. Kinetic Melee has a lot of late TimeHit powers relative to their animation times, because its animations use a "wind-up and fast strike/recovery" model. That's fine if the animations are short enough - you don't see people complaining about Body Blow (1.07 second animation, 1 second TimeHit) or Smashing Blow (1.2 second animation, 1.23 second TimeHit - yes, the full animation including 'recovery' plays before the damage is applied for this one) because the animation times are shorter.

 

But for comparison, Greater Fire Sword also has a TimeHit of 1.23 seconds, and Dark Melee has one power with a TimeHit above 0.83 seconds (Soul Drain applies damage at 1.77 seconds). So even the fast Kinetic Melee powers are slow (to deal damage) compared to other sets, and it is all based on the style of the animations, not necessarily the animation times themselves.

Edited January 11, 2021 by siolfir

[Vanden]

I said my piece in the Kinetic Melee thread in Suggestions & Feedback:

Spoiler

On 12/2/2020 at 5:23 PM, Vanden said:

The standard damage formula makes it pretty easy to categorize single-target attacks based on their recharge. Attacks with a recharge of 8s or less are basically filler attacks; they're not that strong, but you use them when stronger attacks are on cooldown. Attacks with a recharge of 10-15s or so (I don't think there's any powers in the game with a 9s recharge) are the meat-and-potatoes powers, attack chain staples; these are powers like Freezing Touch or Golden Dragonfly. And powers with recharges longer than 15s are the heavy-hitters, powers like Total Focus and Knockout Blow. The best sets have at least 2 powers falling into the latter two categories (or they have several good AoE powers). Kinetic Melee's main problem is that it has four powers in the Filler range and only one Heavy Hitter, and its AoE isn't good enough to make up for that. Increasing the recharge on Focused Burst to 10-12s, with the corresponding increase in damage scale, would fix this.

 

Another problem is Concentrated Strike. It's basically Total Focus, but worse. The damage is the same, but Total Focus is 100% chance for scale 10 Stun, while Concentrated Strike is only 60% chance. Also, TF does more damage on a crit, while CS only recharges Build Up/Power Siphon, which isn't necessarily helpful. TF is also faster than it now, and of course is also in the same set as Energy Transfer; really I'm not sure why they decided to make the capstone power of KM an inferior clone of a power that isn't even its own set's capstone, that's just weird. So some kind of buff for CS is also in order.

 

Lastly, Power Siphon is just too slow. I've only played KM on Stalkers, but I know I would hate spending 2s casting PS multiple times a minute.

The TL;DR is Focused Burst should have a recharge of 10-12s with a matching increase in damage (preferably 12s) and Concentrated Strike needs something. I think @Galaxy Brain up there has a pretty good handle on what the set is lacking.

[Snarky]

6 hours ago, Safehouse said:

So as of this post, my KM/EA scrapper is my first, and only, level 50. I have so much love for Kinetic Melee, and it comes this close (holds up thumb and forefinger) to actually achieving what I want that character to be, thematically. It does, however, fall short.

 

What I love:

• The "twisty" energy. If you look at the way the energy itself moves when you attack, it's like little spirals of power.
• The combination of melee and ranged attacks. It's exactly the combo I always wanted to create for my "battlemage" style character. It sometimes feels like I am playing on an assault/defense archetype, and that's so cool.
• Among the melee sets, this truly feels the most unique. It's super fun to play.

What I feel needs work. Lots of folks have already touched on this but:

• Animation times. Especially for Concentrated Strike and, to a lesser degree, Focused Burst and Burst. There could be other attacks that need the AT trimmed, but those are the big three that need some love. Nobody wanted to be a "corpse blaster."
• Animations themselves. I'm sure plenty of people like the animations just fine, but I strongly advocate for alternate animation options. An option for simpler punches, or maybe even a third animation option to have more of the street brawler look a la street justice, would be awesome. For me, personally, alternate animations to be less hand wavy/jazz hands, would actually, thematically, complete my character. I know that's really my unique scenario, but I imagine I'm not alone in feeling this way.
• Sound design: we've seen "Nascar melee" thrown around and I agree. BUT, more to the point, my main issue is the lack of impact that the sounds design has. When you strike an enemy, it really doesn't FEEL like you've hit them hard.
• On the less aesthetic side of things: damage. Maybe improving animation time could fix this, but I seriously feel like the set needs a damage pass, even if after seeing how animation time fixes affect damage.
• Power Siphon. I'd honestly be all for Power Siphon just being replaced with the stalker Build Up, but I could get behind changes that have been suggested elsewhere in this thread.

At the end of the day, I think lots of my biggest issues with the set (even though I love it!) are more aesthetic than anything else. But, aesthetics has value, and can be an important aspect of WHY people choose not to use the set (or why folks choose TO use the set). I'm a proponent of "more options," and I feel KM is one of those sets that would benefit from such.

Well reasoned and presented analyses.  Even better from someone who is 1) running their first 50 2) enjoys the set.

 

I cannot stress enough how important it is to listen to opinions like these.  Recognize value.  First rule.

[VULCAN]

Thanks a lot for putting your attention on this set :) !

It is a very original set and I like the way it was designed (I have no problem with the sounds, they are  very specific and franckly I like them). 

The main problem for this set is :
- when you play it with tank / brute / scrapper (I keep stalkers aside because many stalkers using KM seem to say its ok in the various threads, so I will focus on the unhappy KM users who are mostly the other melee AT), you feel very often Under the other melee characters in term of damage dealt.
- The attacks are very slow, but for a counterpart you dont really see.
- The original mechanic of power syphon is excellent on the paper, but practically in game it does not give the boost you are hoping.

Any solution that will improve either the damages OR the speed of attacks could bring a solution.
This would be the simplest way of enhancing the set. But in my opinion the best thing to do would be to work on Power Syphon and find a way to make it more powerful. Either a longest duration, or another kind of bonus, like previously said on other threads. For example If power syphon improve your recharge, damage and reduce the casting time of your attacks a little after every succesful hit, that will simulate nicely the draining capacity of kinetics.
For me it would be the perfect way to respect the philosophy of kinetic and at the same time enhance its power to make it competitive with other sets.
 

[Hew]

I am going to spin up a scrapper KM and see how it performs again out of curiousity. It has been a long while, and maybe my memory is a bit rusty. 

 

What do you guys recommend I use for a secondary?

[Max Firepower]

2 hours ago, Hew said:

I am going to spin up a scrapper KM and see how it performs again out of curiousity. It has been a long while, and maybe my memory is a bit rusty. 

 

What do you guys recommend I use for a secondary?

An hourglass?

[Galaxy Brain]

2 hours ago, Hew said:

I am going to spin up a scrapper KM and see how it performs again out of curiousity. It has been a long while, and maybe my memory is a bit rusty. 

 

What do you guys recommend I use for a secondary?

Couple fun choices

 

Shield has fun synergy

 

Ice has fun synergy with more -Dam stacking

 

 

[Erratic1]

3 hours ago, Hew said:

I am going to spin up a scrapper KM and see how it performs again out of curiousity. It has been a long while, and maybe my memory is a bit rusty. 

 

What do you guys recommend I use for a secondary?

As I noted upthread, Shield disappointed me back on live (and Shield is awesome) but Bio has kept me excited.

 

Also might consider Rad or Energy Aura.

Edited January 12, 2021 by Erratic1

[Heraclea]

I have kinetic melee on two characters: Ann Atomic, a kinetic/radiation scrapper on Torchbearer, and Witchfinder General, a bio/kinetic tanker on Excelsior.  On the tanker I like the animations fine; he's supposed to be casting spells, but the sounds are rather incongruous.  On the scrapper, I built her to represent a speedster concept, and that's a bit less successful; the revving noises work just fine, but the animations are slow and there isn't quite enough AoE in the set IMO.  Works best on AVs and other hard targets than it does on regular spawns. 

[Safehouse]

3 hours ago, Hew said:

I am going to spin up a scrapper KM and see how it performs again out of curiousity. It has been a long while, and maybe my memory is a bit rusty. 

 

What do you guys recommend I use for a secondary?

I freaking love Energy Aura with Kinetic Melee. It's just a delightful combo. I can't recommend it highly enough.

 

I don't know how I slept on EA when the game was live but I always ignored it.

[midnox]

I love this power set.  I have several 50+ toons, in different AT's, with it, including a VL 79 scrapper.  I like it for its tai chi/bagua like movements.  As a 30+ year practitioner of tai chi...it appeals to me. 

Edited January 12, 2021 by midnox

[SeraphimKensai]

If I had my way I'd speed up the animation of most of the attacks, as the set feels clunky, and then change:

Power Siphon as follows:

1. Nerf the TBD gained per stack from 7.5% to 2.5%, with the proposed changes below this is actually a buff to tohit.

2. Increase the Maximum Duration of Power Siphon from 20 seconds to 60 seconds, once the duration is over, cause increased end cost to all powers for 10 seconds (a fatigued status of sorts)

3. Increase the Maximum Number of Power Siphon Stacks to 20.

4. Adjust damage increase per stack to be 5%, thus allowing you to hit 100% damage increase.

5. Lastly, Power Siphon is changed to a pbaoe, that targets surrounding enemies, and it inflicts a -15% damage buff on any enemy in range, and gives the caster up to 8 starting stacks based on number of nearby targets.

 

Thoughts? Is this too much? too little? or just enough?

 

[Galaxy Brain]

20 minutes ago, SeraphimKensai said:

If I had my way I'd speed up the animation of most of the attacks, as the set feels clunky, and then change:

Power Siphon as follows:

1. Nerf the TBD gained per stack from 7.5% to 2.5%, with the proposed changes below this is actually a buff to tohit.

2. Increase the Maximum Duration of Power Siphon from 20 seconds to 60 seconds, once the duration is over, cause increased end cost to all powers for 10 seconds (a fatigued status of sorts)

3. Increase the Maximum Number of Power Siphon Stacks to 20.

4. Adjust damage increase per stack to be 5%, thus allowing you to hit 100% damage increase.

5. Lastly, Power Siphon is changed to a pbaoe, that targets surrounding enemies, and it inflicts a -15% damage buff on any enemy in range, and gives the caster up to 8 starting stacks based on number of nearby targets.

 

Thoughts? Is this too much? too little? or just enough?

 

Currently, Power Siphon hits give you much, much more damage per attack.... 25% per hit as a Tank/Brute and 31.25% per hit as a Scrapper, for a total of 125%-136.25% at 5 hits. Needing a total of 20 total hits, or at best 12 hits to get less of a buff is a downgrade 😞

 

 

 

[Spaghetti Betty]

Ok, I don't have too much experience with this set, but I'll go ahead and throw my opinion on this anyway. I'll try my best to separate my thoughts into points, and I apologize if the post is long and windy, adult beverages tend to do that.

 

When trying this set, I rolled 2 different toons, a stalker and a scrapper.

 

Right off the bat, the stalker version of the set felt way better. I feel like it "trims the fat" so to speak. Power Siphon feels clunky and not worth having. In its current state, I feel like running Assault or Tactics with a gaussian proc does a way better job of increasing damage without as much investment. Now, that's not to say I don't like the concept of Power Siphon, but I feel like it should've been a baked in gimmick to the set rather than a whole click that takes up a power slot. Instead, I have another idea that I'll get to later.

 

Another element of "trimming the fat" that I think makes the stalker version better is getting rid of Repulsing Torrent. Even speaking in a solo experience, this power is extremely situational. Scrappers don't really benefit from KB as much as say a Blaster does, so the power feels unnecessary to pick up. Especially because of the long animation without much reward in terms of damage. Now, it's really hard to say how this power could be changed so that you would want it over, or even in conjunction with, Burst. I feel like Burst already does everything a Scrapper would need Repulsing Torrent to do.

 

So let's talk about what we would replace Power Siphon with if it got baked into the set as a passive. I would suggest placing it with something I would call Siphon Momentum. This is the melee version of Kinetics, right? If I'm supposed to be blitzing down a single target using the T1, T2, and T3 power (and AS, but this also assuming this was the intentioned design choice), why is there no way for me to ensure my target stays right in front of me? Well, what if Power Siphon was a power that sapped your target's speed and gave it back to you as +Rech and +Spd? I feel like that would be a really interesting change, and give a lot of synergy to armor sets that would make it a more alluring pick. For example, if I, as a Regeneration scrapper, would benefit greatly from dealing with incoming damage taken without a huge investment in +Rech and +Res IO set bonuses, I could choose Kinetic Melee, since I know it'll give targets -DMG on hit, and the new Siphon Momentum will give me a nice Recharge bonus to keep things like Reconstruction and Moment of Glory coming up more reliably, and I have more wiggle room to build for things like Defense or Slow Resistance.

 

And then there's Concentrated Strike, to make Siphon Momentum work, I would probably have this power guarantee a refresh of Siphon Momentum based on how many stacks of the now passive Siphon Power. That way, the ideal gameplan is to dump your stacks into your strongest attack to guarantee a nice bonus to your global recharge. The payoff makes it valuable, your T9 is now benefitting fully from your +DMG without as much setup being required (since you don't have to click Power Siphon), and for landing your T9, your other powers come back faster as a result. Oh, and I would also give it increased damage on crit. Maybe not double, since in my suggestion, it would be refreshing Siphon Momentum on hit with enough stacks, but I also feel like this power needs to do increased damage on crit to be worth picking up.

 

I also wanna go on record and say I don't mind any of the animations of Kinetic Melee, except maybe Repulsing Torrent. I feel like cool factor is a big reason why people choose certain sets, and Kinetic melee definitely delivers that. Burst is cool. Focused Burst is cool. I even think Concentrated Strike could be cool if it actually did something worthwhile.

[siolfir]

57 minutes ago, midnox said:

I love this power set.  I have several 50+ toons, in different AT's, with it, including a VL 79 scrapper.  I like it for its tai chi/bagua like movements.  As a 30+ year practitioner of tai chi...it appeals to me. 

Trying to keep the feel of the animations similar to how they currently are is why I recommended just speeding up the existing one for Focused Burst, and removing the first "arm waving" loop of Concentrated Strike (basically just playing the end of the loop).

 

One thing I see brought up a few times is that Stalkers don't complain about Kinetic Melee - that's not really because it's a great set for them, though, it's because it doesn't have Power Siphon (and Build Up is superior) and they actually get a fast animating heavy hitter: the Kinetic Melee fast Assassin's Strike animation time is 0.67 seconds (keep in mind, with an Assassin's Focus critical that's scale 5 damage - fast Energy Transfer is scale 4.56 in 1 second). This makes Concentrated Strike completely irrelevant*, especially since it comes 26 levels earlier - essentially as a Stalker you can have every power you're likely to use from your primary at level 8 with the slowest animation being 1.2 seconds, unless you take Burst for the 100% critical from Hide. Because Concentrated Strike's "gimmick" was added to a Stalker ATO, having high uptime on Build Up is considered standard Stalker behavior, making the set's performance relative to other Stalker primaries worse because now every set can do it while having better attacks to use. Kinetic Melee could use help on Stalkers also, which is why my list earlier had changes to Smashing Blow, Burst, and Focused Burst to increase their damage/end/recharge along with a reduced-damage critical on a faster Concentrated Strike.

 

24 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Currently, Power Siphon hits give you much, much more damage per attack.... 25% per hit as a Tank/Brute and 31.25% per hit as a Scrapper, for a total of 125%-136.25% at 5 hits. Needing a total of 20 total hits, or at best 12 hits to get less of a buff is a downgrade 😞

That's why my suggestion earlier was just to increase the to-hit bonus (which doesn't stack) for the 20 second duration, and have a baseline +damage that the stacks build on. You get something immediately, but still have to continue attacking (with a better chance of success!) and will exceed Build Up's +damage with 3 stacks instead of 4, making it easier to maintain for a 10 second duration.

The alternate idea I've seen for just having it act as a mini-Fulcrum Shift by applying -damage in an AoE and providing that many stacks immediately would also work to use it as a burst damage tool.

 

* - in a post-Stalker ATO world

Edited January 12, 2021 by siolfir

[SeraphimKensai]

8 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Currently, Power Siphon hits give you much, much more damage per attack.... 25% per hit as a Tank/Brute and 31.25% per hit as a Scrapper, for a total of 125%-136.25% at 5 hits. Needing a total of 20 total hits, or at best 12 hits to get less of a buff is a downgrade 😞

 

 

 

Yes I did think of that myself, and the reason I aimed for a little lower is that you could essentially make my version of power siphon permanent as long as you have mobs to hit. Maybe double damage isn't enough though?

[Hew]

Remove the 5 target bigboost cap, and just let it run out to max targets for the power?

[Myrmidon]

8 hours ago, Leetdeth said:

Another element of "trimming the fat" that I think makes the stalker version better is getting rid of Repulsing Torrent. Even speaking in a solo experience, this power is extremely situational. Scrappers don't really benefit from KB as much as say a Blaster does, so the power feels unnecessary to pick up. Especially because of the long animation without much reward in terms of damage. Now, it's really hard to say how this power could be changed so that you would want it over, or even in conjunction with, Burst. I feel like Burst already does everything a Scrapper would need Repulsing Torrent to do.

That one is a no from me on removing Repulsing Torrent. On Tankers (and Brutes played as such), that power is really good ranged aggro control which also can be converted into Knockdown. GB’s idea of making it more hard hitting would be a better option.
 

I do like your Siphon Momentum idea, so let’s get rid of Concentrated Strike (since it’s completely redundant) and make this a worthy T9 instead.

[Myrmidon]

9 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

once the duration is over, cause increased end cost to all powers for 10 seconds (a fatigued status of sorts)

Going down the road to anything resembling a Rage penalty is madness. Let’s not entertain that.

[Erratic1]

Sandbox thinking...

 

What if when Power Siphon is activated not only do attacks made generate stacks but also incoming attacks that deal either Smashing or Energy damage?

 

Or maybe go further and make Power Siphon an auto power where incoming attacks (taking damage) builds stacks, Kinetic Melee attacks spend stacks, stacks build to 10 but at stack values greater than five incoming damage is increased by 20% per stack. Or maybe it should remain a click power if 10 stacks will scale you to taking double damage, you just have great incentive to spend stacks quickly.

Edited January 12, 2021 by Erratic1

[Erratic1]

2 minutes ago, Myrmidon said:

That one is a no from me on removing Repulsing Torrent. On Tankers (and Brutes played as such), that power is really good ranged aggro control which also can be converted into Knockdown. GB’s idea of making it more hard hitting would be a better option.

Agreed. My KM/Bio Scrapper has slotted the Overwhelming Force set and converted the Knockback to Knockdown, making it a very useful power.

[Myrmidon]

3 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

Or maybe go further and make Power Siphon an auto power where incoming attacks (taking damage) builds stacks, Kinetic Melee attacks spend stacks, stacks build to 10 but at stack values greater than five incoming damage is increased by 10% per stack.

A Sabastian Shaw concept. That would be a really fun and different idea to work out.

[Erratic1]

1 minute ago, Myrmidon said:

A Sabastian Shaw concept. That would be a really fun and different idea to work out.

With the name Power Siphon, it seemed a reasonable extension. That the power is auto or click should determine the penalty and scaling. Since auto gives you no choice the penalty should be less  and because it is all the time the bonus should be smaller. As a click power, with the ability to choose when best to use it, the bonus can be higher and likewise the risk of the penalty higher too. 

 

Hmmm...both of best worlds? A power which when taken gives a permanent lower effect and clicks for augmented effect?