SUGGESTION: Add a taunt to Mastermind primary attacks

[Kid_Gloves]

Add a taunt to all Mastermind primary power pool attacks that starts at a base of 0 magnitude, but then scales up based on the number of minions who are within superiority range and set to defensive/follow.

 

This can use the same code path to calculate validity as the existing health sharing check that already exists for masterminds.

 

Reasoning

When MMs were first introduced, they were touted as the villain tank-alternative. However, Brutes very quickly took that spot for a number of reasons - ease of use in the role, defensive secondary, and the fact that their core mechanic is very much about being an attention diva. For people coming across from CoH, the similarity between the Brute and the Tank made the comparison easy.

 

Masterminds have since been left with a bit of a questionable team role. There's no question that a MM can solo like a champ, but in teams they often end up as being a bit defender-ish with weaker support but more numerous (and sometimes irritating) attacks. They end up being a quasi-defender that, honestly, a defender or corruptor is probably better suited to perform. What they bring that a defender or corrupter doesn't is personal survivability.... sometimes. They also bring minions, which are controversial enough that some MMs will intentionally run without their class-defining feature when in large groups.

 

On top of this, Masterminds have superiority - complete with the health sharing mechanic - which is all about survivability. Survivability is a trait you want in someone filling a tank role, but a tank role is barely viable if you can't actually attract the attention of anything.

 

While it's true that a MM could grab provoke as a pool power (and it works!), it seems a bit weird that a pool power would be a necessity to be able to effectively exploit a core AT ability in a group situation. For this reason I suggest doing something about it, and by having the taunt scale based on superiority it means those MMs who want to tank things can, while those MMs who prefer not to aren't suddenly landed with a taunt they don't want.

 

Solo Impact

None. It's tied to an attack already, so if the MM was drawing agro, they were going to do it anyway.

 

Team Impact

MMs can grab agro! Because it's tied to how minions work, it means a MM can control how much agro they're grabbing. By using a smaller number of minions, they can set their taunts to be lower magnitude than the tanks or brutes, making them great for off-tanking or similar. By running with more minions, masterminds can experiment with more central tanking roles - although it's likely MMs will need more than just a taunt for tanking late-game content. Even so, being a viable off-tank is still a useful role to fulfil, and doesn't step all over the toes of ATs like the Tanker or (to a lesser extent) the Diva (Brute).

 

The taunt effectiveness is tied to the attack itself, so for many MMs their taunt will be single target rather than group based. This immediately changes how they interact with enemies, and sets them well apart from Tankers (who are all about the AoE taunt) and Brutes (who are all about the attention from everyone!) - making them a much more strategic, scalpel-like tank. One might even say... a mastermind.

 

As MM minions die, their ability to effectively tank wanes. This puts MMs in a position of being able to relief-tank (stepping in and taking over from a main tank for a short while to provide the MT with some brief respite).

 

Love ya, Brutes!

[arcane]

I didn’t read all of that but did recently build provoke into an MM for the first time so.. I like the basic idea well enough.

[Monos King]

No thanks, I'll pickup provoke when I don't want my fodder taking blows for me. I do like taunting at times though, so I wouldn't be opposed to seeing a taunt temporary power installed in the game somewhere. Maybe from a zone event or holiday arc. 

[Greycat]

I'd have to agree, if I want attention, I'll grab provoke. There are times enough that I *don't* want to pull attention from my minions - such as when you actually start playing a MM and have one weak minion sitting there. Not enough to really use bodyguard effectively, and *you* don't have any way to boost your survival. Plus there are attacks (I'm thinking necro specifically - if I'm using life drain, it's likely because I need health half the time, not aggro. Aggro would be the exact opposite of what I needed.)

 

Necro attacks need ... many things, but this wouldn't hit the top 10 for me. At most, along these lines? Let them take taunt enhancements, but start out with no taunt itself. You want it as a ST that deliberately taunts, you put a taunt enhancement *in* it.

[Kid_Gloves]

What about having one of the primaries able to do double duty as a taunt?

 

Or if the taunt didn't kick in until you had a minimum number of minions - but I'm not sure how well that would function for a lower level MM.

[SuggestorK]

Im with Monos King and Greycat, since i end up mostly focusing on buffing team etc. with my MMs.. i do not need more aggro on me.....

Edited January 13, 2021 by SuggestorK

[golstat2003]

Pass. Agreed with the others. My MM isn't a tank.

[AerialAssault]

Tbh my MM seems to draw enough aggro just standing around, doing nothing. No taunt necessary.

[Black Zot]

Oh hell no.  Like any of the squishy ATs, most of a MM's survivability on a team revolves around NOT having aggro.  Tankerminding is, at best, a gimmick build that falls well short of an actual tank class.

 

And telling MMs to run with less than the full complement of pets when those pets comprise the vast majority of their contribution to a team is ludicrous.

[arcane]

I obviously didn’t think about this hard enough. Probably because life drain is the only primary attack power I would ever take on an MM.

[Purrfekshawn]

Yes for more options, but Minions shud be set Defensive+Follow for that to work lMO.

 

Also: Mastermind replacement for Tankers? l don't think so. l thought devs plan was to make CoV generally harder than CoH, which is why Villain AT would deal more damage, but have weakened their secondary roles. Survivability was a lot lower back then and boss fight could easily lead to team wipe (w/out IO's and Incarnates):

 

Corruptor - Defender with MORE DAMAGE & weaker buffs. Average between Defender & Blaster at this point.

Brute - Tanker with MORE DAMAGE & weaker defenses. Average between Tanker & Scrapper at this point.

Dominator - Controller with MORE DAMAGE & weaker control.

Stalker - modified Scrapper, that has a bit lowered self-defense in favor of Stealth.

Mastermind - purely unique AT, that has no analogue in City of Heroes.

 

Edited January 13, 2021 by Purrfekshawn

[Greycat]

17 minutes ago, Purrfekshawn said:

Also: Mastermind replacement for Tankers? l don't think so.

Having trouble tracking it down, but I'm fairly sure they did say that specifically on a few occasions, yes. That was their intent.

[SwitchFade]

1 hour ago, Purrfekshawn said:

Yes for more options, but Minions shud be set Defensive+Follow for that to work lMO.

 

Also: Mastermind replacement for Tankers? l don't think so. l thought devs plan was to make CoV generally harder than CoH, which is why Villain AT would deal more damage, but have weakened their secondary roles. Survivability was a lot lower back then and boss fight could easily lead to team wipe (w/out IO's and Incarnates):

 

Corruptor - Defender with MORE DAMAGE & weaker buffs. Average between Defender & Blaster at this point.

Brute - Tanker with MORE DAMAGE & weaker defenses. Average between Tanker & Scrapper at this point.

Dominator - Controller with MORE DAMAGE & weaker control.

Stalker - modified Scrapper, that has a bit lowered self-defense in favor of Stealth.

Mastermind - purely unique AT, that has no analogue in City of Heroes.

I can confirm the original theme and while there were no direct analogs, as they wanted it to be different, the following was the intent,

 

- MM original role was the "tank" equivalent in CoV, in that it was a meat shield

- The brute was the "analog" of scrap, melee tough with damage

- Stalkers were melee squishies, like a blaster was ranged, but were single target focused where blasties are mixed aoe and st

- Corruptor was a reverse defender, with an offense mechanic

- Doms were in the vein of controllers, more damage and intermittently more control (that is, until containment made controllers and Doms equivilant, generally)

- veats were squiddy 2.0 redux 😂 

 

This was all discussed on live, thank God it all changed, as in actual play, none of this panned out and brutes were recognized as tankish. Jack's "vision" was clearly foggy. Now, you can be skeptical, but, it was discussed in depth 😄

Edited January 13, 2021 by SwitchFade

[Doomguide2005]

14 hours ago, AerialAssault said:

Tbh my MM seems to draw enough aggro just standing around, doing nothing. No taunt necessary.

🙄  yes, if within their perception range you'll create some minimum threat even with the fact all the parts are multiplied by '0' damage ... it's suspected the floor is actually set to 1.  I've used that fact on lowbies to pull on Live before vet attacks and similar options didn't yet exist.  Fought a lot of Vahz in particular as a scrapper that way.  Of course on a team you're likely at or sharing the bottom of the threat list of any foe when not attacking.

Edited January 14, 2021 by Doomguide2005
Clarity

[tidge]

I understand the intent behind the initial request, but I don't think all combinations of MM primary/secondary would appreciate this. It seems from the thread that not all players would either 🙂

[Dragon Crush]

Yeah, at most I could see maybe a null the gull option to add mag 1 taunt to MM attacks if you want it with the default being no-taunt (and in that case, maybe other classes have the option for adding mag .5, and tanks/brutes having an option to decrease [but not eliminate] the taunt on their attacks)