It's 2021. Do we really want Paragon Protectors with the old version of MOG still?

[oedipus_tex]

If this is the enemy I am thinking of, you can Confuse them and then not worry teammate AoEs will kill your special pet.

[Haijinx]

16 hours ago, Vanden said:

Their MoG gives them +95% defense. Radiation Infection is only -31.25%, unless you slot it, but who does that? Even if you did slot it, and threw in Power Build Up, the PP still comes out ahead. It's an absolutely massive buff that almost no single character can negate. The only example I can think of is an */Energy Blaster that can Power Boost Aim and Build Up. (Also, Dark has no defense debuffs at all, just to clarify.)

 

Debuffing the resistance is an even grimmer picture. It gives them 95% damage resistance, there's no "overcoming" that with the debuffs available to players. That Radiation Defender's Enervating Field does -30% resistance; PP's with their 90% resist cap and MoG resist 90% of that, so it goes down to 3%. 95 - 3 = final resistance of 92%. With the 90% cap, there's no change at all in the PP's resistance.

This must be how the baddies feel when every hero team is full of people softcapped to everything.

[Piecemeal]

 

3 hours ago, Haijinx said:

This must be how the baddies feel when every hero team is full of people softcapped to everything.

 

[arcane]

3 hours ago, Haijinx said:

This must be how the baddies feel when every hero team is full of people softcapped to everything.

Underrated comment

[arthurh35353]

3 hours ago, Haijinx said:

This must be how the baddies feel when every hero team is full of people softcapped to everything.

And then they realize that there are people that only have 75% resistance, so they can actually affect them. 

[Alchemystic]

less challenge

more challenge

yall better make your minds up real soon 

[arcane]

7 minutes ago, Tyrannical said:

less challenge

more challenge

yall better make your minds up real soon 

No kidding. Story of this forum in a nutshell lol.

[PeregrineFalcon]

On 3/1/2021 at 12:48 AM, Vanden said:

Man if you can go and aggro a brand new group while you’ve still got a boss from the previous group aggroed on you you’re clearly way too strong for that boss to pose any real challenge and the MoG is just wasting your time

Another reason why cutting the duration in half and adding a big damage boost during that time might be a good solution.

 

It makes it difficult while not making it last so long as to just be annoying.

[SwitchFade]

Ok, fine. Here's a compromise, á la ghoul and freaks...

 

MoG duration is halved... And upon activation they heal to full health and get +70% recharge for the duration of MoG, a pseudo hasten effect.

 

So, they go berserk and fully heal, for half the current duration... The powers exist too, dull pain and hasten... Just code them for it.

 

There's your new and modern challenge without the frustration 🤪

Edited March 3, 2021 by SwitchFade

[Tigraine]

On ‎2‎/‎26‎/‎2021 at 10:05 PM, SwitchFade said:

Yes, yes we do want to keep it the way it is.

 

PPs are one of the more challenging aspects of the game, no need to water them down.

 

Leave them as is, they're iconic. Hard no vote on changing them.

They're not challenging, they're boring!  If you can't interrupt or prevent MoG from going off, you end up twiddling your thumbs forever waiting for them to be vulnerable again.

[SwitchFade]

10 minutes ago, Tigraine said:

They're not challenging, they're boring!  If you can't interrupt or prevent MoG from going off, you end up twiddling your thumbs forever waiting for them to be vulnerable again.

That's actually the definition of challenge... An exerp of which I posted in this thread. 😋🤐🤪😋🤤🤣🤣🤣🤣🤯🤯🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🆘

Edited March 3, 2021 by SwitchFade

[Razor Cure]

1 hour ago, SwitchFade said:

That's actually the definition of challenge

Maybe it is, but fighting PPs while MoG is STILL stupidly boring. A tank, afk with one attack on auto fire, compared to a blaster, jumping around, kiting, trying not to get hit..has almost exactly the SAME time frame for killing them. Because nearly every attack will miss or do almost zero damage. Is that still a challenge for the tank?

Something that is unhittable and almost invincible is not a challenge. Not when some ATs can afk, and the rest simply can run away and wait 2 mins.

 

[arcane]

53 minutes ago, Razor Cure said:

Maybe it is, but fighting PPs while MoG is STILL stupidly boring. A tank, afk with one attack on auto fire, compared to a blaster, jumping around, kiting, trying not to get hit..has almost exactly the SAME time frame for killing them. Because nearly every attack will miss or do almost zero damage. Is that still a challenge for the tank?

Something that is unhittable and almost invincible is not a challenge. Not when some ATs can afk, and the rest simply can run away and wait 2 mins.

 

Again, part the challenge is in avoiding MoG altogether at a reliable rate. Based on this thread it’s quite obvious many players find that difficult. Why would anyone be complaining about MoG if it weren’t something of a challenge to prevent?

Edited March 4, 2021 by arcane

[Razor Cure]

1 hour ago, arcane said:

Again, part the challenge is in avoiding MoG altogether at a reliable rate. Based on this thread it’s quite obvious many players find that difficult. Why would anyone be complaining about MoG if it weren’t something of a challenge to prevent?

Because it sticks out as a HUGE issue compared to every other enemy in the game. Nothing else (even the council phasing guys only lasts about 15 secs) comes close. And it really isnt that much of a challenge at all (as I will keep saying). On small teams, you can just all go afk. On large teams, like Manti, it gets super annoying, because in those massive spawns, a few AoEs can knock them into MoG range, which then just slows teh whole team down, trying to kill something that cant be killed.

Make their MoG last 15 secs, and be exactly the same amount of def and res. STILL a 'challenge' and it wont just make an entire team go 'Ah, screw that mog.'

[Troo]

Buff Paragon Protectors!!

[Techwright]

On 2/28/2021 at 12:22 AM, SwitchFade said:

Since we're debating semantics 🤪

 

challenging

[ˈCHalənˌjiNG]

 

ADJECTIVE

1. testing one's abilities; demanding.

Respectfully, I think you just made Razor Cure's point.  RC's description shows the PP aren't testing player ability.   It really can't challenge player ability if literally nothing the player does affects them for 1 or 2 minutes, or however long that "eternity" is.  It's not even a game of keep away at that point.  I've run several teams fighting Crey of late and the PP never seem to lethally hit while using MOG.  The teammate literally stand around with a "we gotta wait...again?!" attitude. Often, I'll see 5 or 6 teammates move on to the next mob, and leave 2 or 3 to mop up when MOG wears off.  I do agree with you that if the team can drag them along to the next mob, it's the better way to go.

 

Challenging to me would be to find a way to burn down a near-MOG ability.  For example, if they're resistant to everything else except psionic, and even then psionic's attacks are less potent.  Then it becomes a challenge to wear them down faster than the MOG-like ability would give them.  Alternately, if all player attacks are reduced to, say, half a minor damage attack, then again, it's a challenge to wear them out faster than their normal allotted time.  Should they also start getting true hits in, like I remember from the original game, then it becomes a challenge.

[SwitchFade]

13 minutes ago, Troo said:

Buff Paragon Protectors!!

PP MoG buffed to 120 seconds.

 

Damage buffed to 200%

 

And vengence.

 

Yes vote.

[Razor Cure]

13 minutes ago, Techwright said:

It really can't challenge player ability if literally nothing the player does affects them for 1 or 2 minutes, or however long that "eternity" is. 

Exactly! I can agree its a challenge to kill them BEFORE MoG. But after? Just an exercise is frustration.

[Indystruck]

It's fine.

[Tigraine]

12 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

That's actually the definition of challenge... An exerp of which I posted in this thread. 😋🤐🤪😋🤤🤣🤣🤣🤣🤯🤯🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🆘

I'm going to use a time-honored quote here.

"You keep using that word.  I do not think it means what you think it means."

Yes, I know you posted the definition.  I still don't think you understand it.

[Galaxy Brain]

18 hours ago, Tyrannical said:

less challenge

more challenge

yall better make your minds up real soon 

Both of these can be true!

 

As mentioned, certain things are not "challenging" as much as they are "frustrating". When a PP pops MoG, you and it often just kind of sit there for 45 seconds till you mop the floor with them right after having to look at your watch for a bit. For most characters, it's not an "Oh crap!" moment where the tables turn and you gotta back off or switch tactics, it just puts you in time out until you can attack them again. 

 

A great version of this enemy trope can be found in Borderlands games. They have a "Goliath" enemy type that has a helmet where their critical hit spot (well their head lol) is, and they have a ton of HP and hit hard. You can fight them slowly, which may take a bit since they're tanky, or you can try and defeat them quickly by hitting their critical spot... but there is a catch. IF you crit them and DO NOT DEFEAT THEM in the next few seconds, they will go BERSERK and regain all HP, pop essentially CoH rage + Hasten, and hunt you down with incredible speed and power, even attacking other enemies and leveling up to bigger and badder versions (with a full heal) each time they do so. On occasion, normally damaging them also has a chance for their helmets to pop off and go berserk too. 

 

The difference between Paragon Protectors and Goliaths is that there is far more interaction and player agency with one over the other. The encounters with both allow a player to actively prevent the bad timeline from happening by shutting down the threat fast either through raw firepower or control, though that in itself is a decent challenge to do so given they are boss-tier enemies. This is good. What is not good is that while one turns into a markedly much more intense encounter where the tables turn from hunter to hunted, with even more risk/reward if you allow it to grow even *stronger*, the other just goes "nah nah you can't get me!" for like a minute and most characters can just ignore the thing relatively safely, leading to the reaction going from "Oh Crap!!!" to "Ugh, dang it now I gotta wait".

 

 

For a different example, think of basically ANY platforming game where you have that one room with the moving platforms. Yeah, you all know *that* room. 

 

The one where there is a big climb up to some area where there is then a slow moving platform in mid-air you have to jump on, and then stay on it as it takes you to a whole other part of the level you cannot get to otherwise. Getting up to the platform, jumping onto the platform, and generally staying on it is not that difficult, and if you do get pushed off, you are not killed or even take too much damage... but you gotta go back to the (ladder), climb allllll the way back up, and then WAIT for the damn thing to come back. 

 

It's not hard, it's just a slog.  Compare that room to the one where there is like a series of platforms that disappear when you land on them, making you have to jump with very quick timing and think one leap ahead with each action, and messing up has you have to do it over again. On the surface, the punishment seems similar but this one is far more engaging as you actively have a role in what happens as a player where a bad result is moreso your own actions, while the other is the game punishing you by putting you into time out arbitrarily.

Edited March 4, 2021 by Galaxy Brain

[arcane]

13 hours ago, Razor Cure said:

 

Make their MoG last 15 secs, and be exactly the same amount of def and res. STILL a 'challenge' and it wont just make an entire team go 'Ah, screw that mog.'

The noticeable duration is the only incentive to engage in challenge of killing/mezzing them before they can pop MoG in the first place. Maybe a little reduction is warranted but 15 seconds doesn’t sound like much. Also think Switch’s idea of giving them an offensive buff would be good. Throw some +ToHit in the mix too so soft cappers can’t ignore them completely 🙂

[Infinitum]

I take focused accuracy on most of my melee characters and that plus buuld up will allow me to take them out - did it many many times last week in fact.

 

But what I normally did would be to wait on the build up take them down to about 20% then pop my buildup or any other booster I have and unload the heavy hitters - and I would say 90% of the time they didnt make it to MOG.

 

I like the strategy of it as is.

[SwitchFade]

6 hours ago, Tigraine said:

I'm going to use a time-honored quote here.

"You keep using that word.  I do not think it means what you think it means."

Yes, I know you posted the definition.  I still don't think you understand it.

Regardless of what you may think, even quoting mandy patinkin, you're quite certainly wrong. My lexicon is quite adept.

 

Word mean what they mean. Challenge means what it means.

[InvaderStych]

Hold on, people actually stand around and wait for the duration?  The ones that are lucky enough to pop MoG can just be ignored until it's down.  They'll follow you for a good long while zipping in and out of their max range.  The ones that don't are easy enough to find later on the fairly rare "defeat all" missions that have them.  There's figuratively zero reason to wait around.

 

Edited March 4, 2021 by InvaderStych