Is Regen still worth playing?

[Haijinx]

55 minutes ago, America's Angel said:

 

Regen provides +regen and +HP, and does not have its HPS reduced by autohit/unresistable attacks to the same extent other sets do.

Bio and rad provide +absorb

Damage auras and burn increase DPS.

Ice has Hibernate.

etc.

 

These things cannot be replicated with insps.

 

The benefits of SR is that it gets 20% recharge, doesn't need to use purple inspirations, and has good DDR. At the high end, that's not all that impressive.

 

At high end play you want to build for big global recharge, +HP, procs, and chaining insps.

 

It gets like ~99% DDR, that's awesome.  No other set can do that except Shield. 

 

 

[CaptTastic]

42 minutes ago, Werner said:

That we found ourselves referencing soloing +4/x8 content when discussing the relative power levels of armors suggests to me that Regen is likely just fine the vast majority of the time. And that’s what seems to be reported in this thread by the people playing it, regardless of relative power level. It’s been fun for me so far. I think I’m level 16 now, and died twice? Barely started, and it was all team play today, but leveling on teams probably much better describes the typical Regen experience than soloing difficult content while fully IOd and incarnated. It’s easy for me to lose sight of that sometimes.

I think that's the absolute joy of this game - the journey. Start off fighting street crime, get powerful enough to take on organised villain groups, graduate to AVs, then hit the endgame and get to join the fight against inter-dimensional threats to mankind. It is for me, anyway. 

 

Right now, I am tootling along soloing the Crimson arc on my incarnate archer on just +1/x1. Zeus Titans are kicking my ass. It's a fight, and I'm loving it. To those who love to solo at +4/x8, what I am doing is probably madness, especially since I have access to any number of characters who could do just that. 

 

This archer is great though. If he was powerful enough to solo at max difficulty settings, I'd not love him because he'd not be the plucky underdog. He'd be the Galactic Empire, not the Rebel Alliance. This is about his level to be honest. Fighting highly organised crime, teaming to take down bigger threats, and joining an armada of heroes for the big Avengers End Game style stuff, where he will be a minor player at best. 

 

And I guess that is why CoH still works so many years after it was created. Some people want to play a Thor, some people want to play a Hawkeye, and everyone can do it. 

Edited March 7, 2021 by CaptTastic

[Haijinx]

1 hour ago, CaptTastic said:

 

 

Why is the ITF the benchmark too? That feels a bit odd to me too. All sets will perform against different foes in different ways. They all have their strengths and weaknesses. Put a fire-farmer in an ITF and they will not perform well in that test. Put them against fire damage and they will excel while sets with strong S/L resists burn.

 

 

Its a good one for measuring survivability due to DEF debuffs  

[Monos King]

38 minutes ago, America's Angel said:

Inspirations exist in this game. At the high end of min/maxing, chaining inspirations is how you get the most out of your characters.

Not much of a commentary on regen, but we must be different types of min/maxers. My only interest is being as self-sufficient as possible, free from the need of perishables like insps or temps. And I'm a temp hunter. It just depends on my goal. I would never short on defense opportunities if I want my ultimate surviving blaster, but if I want omega damage blaster then I'll ignore it almost entirely. Inspirations exist just to patch the weaknesses of the set or build through momentary aid. I'm just not interested in needing insps to do what I want to be good at.

 

Here's what's important. You're very correct about some sets having higher potential, and it's similar to why proc play has the highest ceiling. Bio has absorb and regen, which means it has the ability to reach capped def and res on top of those two traits, something a set like elec could never do. Rad has nearly infallible regen res, meaning in a situation where bio has been stripped of its regen, rad can keep going...another non inspiration provided attributes. And to go on the earlier example, you obviously can't use enhancements to add entire different mini attacks to your moves, but a proc player can theoretically hit damage cap regardless. However, that doesn't mean the strength of armors is determined by what inspirations can draw out of it. Imagine someone said "old trick arrow build was way more survivable solo than pain domination because I could layer debuffs and then also use insps. That means I can heal, +res, and debuff lots of peoples, whereas pain dom can only do two of those! I think old trick arrow was pretty well off." 

 

You'd call that person insane. You can say that within the realm of the min/max sphere you can make regen work, but using inspirations as the basis won't.

[CaptTastic]

13 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Its a good one for measuring survivability due to DEF debuffs  

But that is surely a loaded test as some sets have strong defence debuff resistance, some don't. Some sets rely on defence, some don't

 

Again, not criticising anyone. It's an absolutely fair observation that Regen does not solo a max-dif ITF as well as other sets can. I'm just saying it doesn't prove anything more than just that. 

[Monos King]

Also, as a sidenote, fight vanguard sword or black knights guys. Do it. +4x8. You've been avoiding it, and I want you to do it.

 

It won't be just regen cursing at the character creator then.

[Haijinx]

3 minutes ago, CaptTastic said:

But that is surely a loaded test as some sets have strong defence debuff resistance, some don't. Some sets rely on defence, some don't

 

Again, not criticising anyone. It's an absolutely fair observation that Regen does not solo a max-dif ITF as well as other sets can. I'm just saying it doesn't prove anything more than just that. 

It definitely favors SR and Shield to an extent.  

 

But also any defense set will be better in a Debuff heavy environment.  Since they all get some DDR.

[Monos King]

3 minutes ago, America's Angel said:

Why?

I have a better question. Why would you think otherwise?

[Monos King]

Just now, America's Angel said:

The burden of proof is on the person who posits the existence of something. You've made a claim. Back it up.

Pass. Someone else can take this one.

[nihilii]

7 hours ago, CaptTastic said:

I’m just still trying to get my head around the supposed fact that being able to solo an ITF on maximum difficulty settings, the ease with which it’s possible, and the consistency with the theoretical data, is the new criteria for ‘playable’.

 

I feel like we may have, somewhere along the line, lost sight of the soul of this game among an ever-thickening fog of spreadsheets. 

My take on it:

- the game is easy enough any powerset can work

- yet it is easy to see some powersets work better than others

- however, something easy to see is not necessarily as easy to demonstrate

- therefore it becomes necessary to crank the difficulty dial, in order to have comparisons we can discuss

 

I agree with you it would be hyperbole to claim Regen isn't playable.

 

I also agree with those who say Regen might be able to survive as well as other characters.

 

But there will always be the opportunity cost in active mitigation. Which translates into less DPS (any time spent on a click is time spent not attacking). Also requires more skill, and that extra attention can compound with the previous factor to result in even more lost DPS.

 

So far, I've found my EM/Regen/Soul Brute to be outdamaged by all my EM tankers (Bio/EM, DA/EM, also Granite/EM). A player with higher skill may see different results. In any case, there is a tax tied to playing Regen.
 

[Infinitum]

11 hours ago, UberGuy said:

My guess is that you'll still get the same ranking, but I think WP and Regen will be (even) closer together and Bio will cruise to victory.

Fully IOd out my experiences is the opposite - Willpower is actually more of a set it and forget it vs the Cims than Bio.

[ForeverLaxx]

3 hours ago, America's Angel said:

The burden of proof is on the person who posits the existence of something

Considering the concept of "chain your inspirations or you're not playing right" came from you first, and you've been repeating it over and over, I'd say the burden is yours. Personally, I don't like relying on random luck of the draw to shore up my character's holes. If you get around this by filling your email with large inspirations or buying them from the AH to store for later, that's something I don't want to do either.

 

When I build characters, I build them around things I can control. I can't control what inspiration I get or how big that inspiration is if it's even the correct one.

[Infinitum]

5 hours ago, America's Angel said:

SR's scaling damres can be replicated with orange insps.

 

Set bonuses =/= insps.

 

Ideally you want to pick a secondary that does things you can't replicate with insps. It pushes your potential higher.

 

Inspirations exist in this game. At the high end of min/maxing, chaining inspirations is how you get the most out of your characters.

When I'm facing Lord Recluse with ANY of my tankers or brutes - I have a static survival line I know I will not need inspirations to survive.

 

Things get sideways occasionally - say for instance - run out of useful inspirations - oops i need a purple now - darn it a break free drops - faceplant.

 

Inspiration use cant be a determining factor when calculating the relative performance of any feature, mechanic, set or AT for that reason - it will always be a variable.

Edited March 7, 2021 by Infinitum

[Infinitum]

10 hours ago, Troo said:

Hey look there's Ice Armor begging for some help to keep up with Radiation Armor

That - is incorrect - ice armor is > than rad when facing just about any content - especially debuffers.

 

Ice armors biggest issue is that you get aaaalll this ice protection that serves no purpose - that could be distributed to better slows or - dmg or some other feature like that to improve the set - but ice armor doesnt need any help its at least #5 for me - maybe even #4.

[America's Angel]

38 minutes ago, ForeverLaxx said:

I can't control what inspiration I get or how big that inspiration is if it's even the correct one.

36 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Inspiration use cant be a determining factor when calculating the relative performance of any feature, mechanic, set or AT for that reason - it will always be a variable.

I can 100% control what insps I have available. Therefore they are not variable.

 

So what's my reason for ignoring them?

[ScarySai]

Guys, regen is fine and totally doesn't need massive buffs.

 

If I pop four purple inspirations before every pull I only die sometimes.

[Bill Z Bubba]

32 minutes ago, America's Angel said:

I can 100% control what insps I have available. Therefore they are not variable.

 

So what's my reason for ignoring them?

Because so can any other armor set. Therefore inspirations can, in fact, be ignored completely, and should be, when having a discussion about powerset balance.

 

It's as ridiculous a standpoint as saying my regen brute needs no help because I can have sonic and cold defenders perpetually buffing me thanks to multiple accounts.

 

And mez protection on squishies is a non-issue because we can all buy Defense Amps from the P2W vendor.

 

Inspiration use has no place in a discussion of powerset balance. None. Zero. Zilch. Use them as you see fit while you play but none of us are buying this line of thought.

[UberGuy]

The core issue with buffing Regen is twofold.

• Clicks cost time, but those who enjoy active sets need them to be click happy.
• HP recovery is the weakest survival mechanic on its own, but adding significant defense/resistance to the set will reduce the need for the set to be played actively.

Note that these observations don't mean I don't think Regen can't or shouldn't be buffed, but no buffs that will preserve its unique play will ever put it on survival par with sets that have high resistance or defense (or both).

 

Given that in real play, it is strong enough to be serviceable, even for some really outrageous game goals, and that alternatives exist for people who don't enjoy clicking a lot, I don't want Regen to change style too dramatically. I wouldn't resist it changing at all.

[UberGuy]

PS: I never said this explicitly (though you can infer it by combining my posts), but the DB/Regen in that ITF is a Scrapper. 

[Galaxy Brain]

On mobile so can't respond to everything, but I want to touch on the topic of variables.

 

The reason I run my tests with controlled conditions is to isolate the trial only to what the tested set can do as much as possible. If one set gets to use an x factor that they all can use, then I would likewise use it for all of them which ends up being a kind of moot point. A Granite user swinging with an AoE knockdown and a Fiery Aura user doing the same both get the benefit of enemies knocked down and not being able to act for a short time, regardless of the comparative need or relative benefit to each. When the enemies stand back up, they would treat you the same as if you had just been standing there. I see it more like the room for error on the armor sets, so something like Ice Armor being a rather active set and surviving well enough on many tests indicates it has a lot of wiggle room while you fight. Invuln can pretty much be set and forget, and fiery needs to be super active but you also get the benefit of a ton more offense.

 

With Inspirations, we can patch nearly anything about our character if prepared enough. However mid-mission if you are not able to whip out the one you want on demand like if you hit a store before zooming to a specific encounter, then you are at the mercy of RNG for what drops (if they drop, if you get the right one, if you have enough to combine, etc) which ultimately makes them something you cannot 100% rely on. These two combined make them a moot point when it comes to the set's balance. Don't get me wrong, its definitely a factor if one set needs just 1 purple to soft cap at all times and another doesn't, but on the whole they cannot be leaned on. Stocking up on X inspiration for a fight you know is coming doesn't equate to the normal gameplay where they come in at random.

 

 

18 minutes ago, UberGuy said:

The core issue with buffing Regen is twofold.

• Clicks cost time, but those who enjoy active sets need them to be click happy.
• HP recovery is the weakest survival mechanic on its own, but adding significant defense/resistance to the set will reduce the need for the set to be played actively.

Note that these observations don't mean I don't think Regen can't or shouldn't be buffed, but no buffs that will preserve its unique play will ever put it on survival par with sets that have high resistance or defense (or both).

 

Given that in real play, it is strong enough to be serviceable, even for some really outrageous game goals, and that alternatives exist for people who don't enjoy clicking a lot, I don't want Regen to change style too dramatically. I wouldn't resist it changing at all.

I want to preserve the core playstyle of regen as that is what people take it for over other sets. Its just in practice, the extra effort that goes into that playstyle does not seem to equate to extra power compared to sets with other mitigation that are also more passive. 

 

We can maintain that active style while also boosting the effectiveness of its buttons.

[UberGuy]

21 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

I want to preserve the core playstyle of regen as that is what people take it for over other sets. Its just in practice, the extra effort that goes into that playstyle does not seem to equate to extra power compared to sets with other mitigation that are also more passive. 

 

We can maintain that active style while also boosting the effectiveness of its buttons.

Even if we boost the survival benefits of Regen's clicks, since clicking deprives "power" unconditionally, the only way click-happy survival tools can offset that is by boosting offense. That strikes me as an unlikely benefit for the set to see added.

 

We can make Regen more survivable for sure, but I figure at its best it's always going to bounce around WP-levels of survival as long as it remains primarily about HP recovery. 

Edited March 7, 2021 by UberGuy

[nihilii]

1 hour ago, UberGuy said:

The core issue with buffing Regen is twofold.

• Clicks cost time, but those who enjoy active sets need them to be click happy.
• HP recovery is the weakest survival mechanic on its own, but adding significant defense/resistance to the set will reduce the need for the set to be played actively.

Note that these observations don't mean I don't think Regen can't or shouldn't be buffed, but no buffs that will preserve its unique play will ever put it on survival par with sets that have high resistance or defense (or both).

 

Given that in real play, it is strong enough to be serviceable, even for some really outrageous game goals, and that alternatives exist for people who don't enjoy clicking a lot, I don't want Regen to change style too dramatically. I wouldn't resist it changing at all.

Perhaps a solution for Regen is the Sid Meier school of design. Paraphrased: if balance isn't right, don't waste time fiddling with numbers in the dark. Just double or halve things, see how it goes, and work from there.

 

Would Regen become overpowered if most of its tools had 2x efficiency?

- Reconstruction would be a full bar heal instead of a half bar heal.

- Quick Recovery would give the highest recovery buff of all passives, giving Regen back its crown after many other powersets came with QR clones sometimes with extra effect, and sometimes with even more end recovery in other powers of these powersets.

- DP would hit against the HP cap for many ATs.

- Fast Healing and Integration would give fantastic regen, but not necessarily out of line with a fully saturated WP or Bio

- Resilience... maybe doesn't need a buff? But then again, would having double the resistances be gamebreaking?

- Moment of Glory, rather than double the def/res, could use half the animation time, or half the recharge, or a mix of both. No matter which route, this would help a lot, as it is the primary route against alpha strikes.

 

For sure, this would mean Regen would become better than most other powersets in casual play where incoming damage is low. I don't see it as necessarily a problem. With the above 2x example, it might still end up just on par with (or even less efficient than) many other powersets in highend survival.

 

Plus, Regen does not give offensive boons unlike many powersets these days. QR barely qualifies as such as is. At 2x efficiency, it would perhaps start to be more justifiable. High endurance recovery can let one run higher damage attack chains, with more procs; eventually forgo Ageless as an Incarnate in favor of Barrier or Rebirth.

 

At least none of the above should change with the feel of Regen. Just make it dramatically stronger on paper, and see if it plays out to be overpowered in the actual game.

 

1 hour ago, America's Angel said:

I can 100% control what insps I have available. Therefore they are not variable.

I know you can, but surely you also know most people either can't or won't.

 

For better or worse, the [convert insps + use insps] playstyle is one that is simply not adopted by the playerbase at large.

 

Perhaps this is due to the inherent twitch skill part of it. Planning a build, even minmaxed, is something one can do at a leisure pace, and then just go and run it. Actively managing insps adds an extra layer you have to take care of.

It remains "temporary" in nature, even if proper management can make it permanent. It's potions. It's stuff external to the character. I'm a fellow insp chugger, but pragmatically I think heavy insp use will always remain an alien notion to many.

 

It makes sense to bring insps as an advantage of Regen, purples are truly the best inspirations. But at the same time, active inspiration use concerns not merely the highend, but the highest end of the highend. Or perhaps, not to put things on a ladder, it's a paradigm shift from the nature of a RPG where you eat the odd consumable to an action game where you actively manage your skittles, and that is simply unacceptable to a sizeable enough portion of the playerbase. If we're already worried solo +4/x8 ITFs is a ridiculous metric, efficient inspiration use likely concerns an even smaller % of the playerbase.

Edited March 7, 2021 by nihilii

[Galaxy Brain]

34 minutes ago, UberGuy said:

Even if we boost the survival benefits of Regen's clicks, since clicking deprives "power" unconditionally, the only way click-happy survival tools can offset that is by boosting offense. That strikes me as an unlikely benefit for the set to see added.

 

We can make Regen more survivable for sure, but I figure at its best it's always going to bounce around WP-levels of survival as long as it remains primarily about HP recovery. 

So, there is a couple things we can do that would preserve the feel of regen while boosting it's effects. 

 

 

Bopper has a post here that goes over a lot of what could be done, but basically what we need here is both mechanics to buy Regen time to act, and to increase the speed of how it acts. There are some highlights:

 

1) Scaling Regeneration gives you more buffer when you actually do get in trouble where your healing factor kicks in harder the less HP you have. Bopper had it slated as a max of +450% bonus regen when at 0% hp, so on top of the ~580% you normally run passively on a regen with basic slotting, you could stack another 400% to get near IH levels without clicking. This buffer allows you to take on a few more seconds of damage, which can make all the difference. On top of this, many powers grant Regen Debuff resistance which helps with keeping your performance consistent. There are also Slow resists which like in Fiery Aura should be in every set that relies on click powers, as well as significant End Drain/-Rec resists with the altered Quick Recovery (Perseverance). That power also now comes with a small passive +HP boost to make up for Dull Pain not being as strong + having a better baseline for all your Regen stats / general toughness. 

 

2) The clicks are both more reliable and offer extra lingering benefits. Reconstruction for one now grants ~9.5% res vs all instead of 15% Toxic res only for it's duration on top of it's normal stats (this is unenhanceable) in order to make it so when you have to pop your heal, you are also made to be that much tougher vs whatever was able to hurt you. Dull Pain was shaved down to offer less effects (less max HP, less up front heal), but had it's recharge significantly reduced from 360s to 240s so that it is not only easier to maintain higher HP but it is up more often as a back-up click heal. Instant healing got a small (comparatively) recharge boost from 650 to 600s, but now also grants a % increase to all healing while active which, like Dull Pain, allows all Regen powers to be even more potent while active. Mog was made to animate much faster + the duration was made from 15s to 20s (with an increased rech of 240 > 300s) so that when you do pop it, you have far more time in your invincible state. On top of that, it swapped places with a revamp to Revive called "Return to Glory" which is literally a SECOND MoG you can use that doubles as a Revive if you die (you pop back up in MoG if used this way), which while on a longer rech by a whole minute, you now get an extra "avoid damage" button built into Regen that you can cycle with the other big clicks.

 

3) Add in a slight buff to integration where it has more unenhanceable regen (it had 50% unenhanceable /100% enhanceable and now it's 100/100), and everything layered together provides Regen with a stronger base outside of when it needs to use clicks, on top of more reliability when clicks are used thanks to better uptimes, better cycling of key abilities with 3 god mode powers, and the debuff resistances to keep it all consistent.

 

Outside of a second MoG, Bopper's changes keep the core playstyle and mechanics intact but just allow it to work better.

 

I myself would love to play that version, though with maybe a tweak to make Reconstruction available more often yet weaker per click, but still it sounds like it'd be just a better version of it's current self while still being uniquely Regeneration compared to the other heal-y sets.

 

Edited March 7, 2021 by Galaxy Brain

[Troo]

4 hours ago, nihilii said:

But there will always be the opportunity cost in active mitigation. Which translates into less DPS (any time spent on a click is time spent not attacking). Also requires more skill, and that extra attention can compound with the previous factor to result in even more lost DPS.

Agreed.

Regen, at +4 without level shifts, is not a friend to DPS.

At more reasonable levels it is not as much of an concern due to not needing as many clicks. Even then, there are secondaries that add to DPS and those that don't.

 

4 hours ago, nihilii said:

So far, I've found my EM/Regen/Soul Brute to be outdamaged by all my EM tankers (Bio/EM, DA/EM, also Granite/EM). A player with higher skill may see different results. In any case, there is a tax tied to playing Regen.

As would be expected.

There is no tax. Regen's capabilities just cap out earlier. Expecting an 8 foot ladder to reach 20 feet is simply user error.

(could probably outperform Granite due to not being rooted or slowed depending on incoming damage management)

 

1 hour ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Its just in practice, the extra effort that goes into that playstyle does not seem to equate to extra power compared to sets with other mitigation that are also more passive.

I think 'seems' is the term to key in on.

Folks have shown Regen can do some awesome things.

It is possible your mathematical analysis could be flawed and is failing to capture something. In my opinion that might be 'time'. It is possible there are other factors which are difficult to factor.

 

Why is there no Regen tank? This is likely because it has a razors edge component that is not conducive to tanks but ideal for scrappers. A regen tank would either be overpowered to all damage types or face down.

 

My stalker is just fine. I am not going to try and solo a +4/8 ITF on it and I am okay with that.

 

 

[Bill Z Bubba]

10 minutes ago, America's Angel said:

Nothing you just wrote convinced me not to use inspirations. And, as they are part of the game, I need a reason to justify not using them. (Otherwise I'm fine to use them. And game balance must take them into account...because they're part of it.)

No one is attempting to give you a reason not to use cheat codes. We're simply explaining to you that there's no difference between a regen spamming insps and any other powerset spamming them so they have no relevance to the discussion at hand. You can continue stating otherwise until you're blue in the face but you'll still be wrong.

We have explained it to you many times. You just refuse to accept the facts.

 

Stock up your email with insps and temps, refill all three amps every 8 hours, keep yourself fully cranked to the walls with base buffs. Knock yourself out. NO ONE CARES. It has NOTHING to do with balancing a melee armor against the other melee armors. I have no doubt that you're going to continue to argue that it does but you'll remain wrong.

 

15 minutes ago, America's Angel said:

Unless...it's a question of insp chaining being too complex for people? Of micro-managing a bunch of consumables being too much for your typical MMORPG PVE player? I'm a PVPer so this sort of micro-management-using-every-tool-available optimal play is standard.

Yes, yes, we get it. You're so much smarter and better than the rest of us because you can store insps in email.

 

16 minutes ago, America's Angel said:

What inspiration does +regen?

What inspiration does +HP?

Those are the benefits Regen brings.

Greens can replace the need for regen and more HP. What insp grants DDR? Oh wait, it doesn't matter because just as greens can replace regen and more HP purples can replace the need for DDR. It's almost like inspirations can be used by every armor just as we've been saying and you continue to ignore.

 

19 minutes ago, America's Angel said:

This posts gets to the long and short of it: most people are playing this game with a dated approach.

Yes, we know, not utilizing every possible cheat code/P2W/base buff available means we're all old and bad at the game. Why even bother with melee at that point at all? Any blaster playing like you is going to make any regenner you have look like it's attacking people with a feather.

 

Your ability to store insps and lean on amps and base buffs or anything doesn't impress anyone because anyone can do it. No one cares and it has no place in powerset balance discussion.