Unlimited Growth

[Bursurkur]

So my cousin who got me into COX when it was live had just went to graze in greener pastures.  He said he's bored with COH and there's nothing to do.  I think he meant once you're as strong as you could possibly be, then you're not motivated anymore to continue.  I know some of you will disagree with that, and I myself like to build out new toons.  But I can see his point.  But it got me thinking, what if we have unlimited growth?  What if we can  continue to level and gets stronger?  I've played games where I've seen people with levels over 1000.  Every time you level you get a few points that you can add to your attributes that would make you stronger.  There's a certain allure to when you walk in, everyone bow down in awe lol.  So what if COX can be like that?  What if after Incarnate, every time you level, you get a point to add to your "attributes", say your HP, or Endurance, or Damage, etc.  
My kids were playing the personal story of Emperor Cole where he single handedly destroyed Lord Recluse and all his army and they were like, "Wow! I want to be him!"
I think that would retain people who love to focus on  one toon to continue to make it stronger while not taking away from others who wants to create many toons. So what do you guys think?

[Darmian]

Well, we're in "different strokes for different folks" territory here, really.  Me?  I want the game to go wider, more depth, more stories, out and out, not driven into a point (and this is my opinion rather than me assuming I'm speaking for many) of "I'm a god, give me god stuff".  I want to see the game's narrative and plot advance, that's not tied to "I'm level 90(+1) , so I need fights to be THIS hard.  Fallout from previous stories, what are the people doing.

 

I understand where you're coming from, I do. Progression of a sort is desired in games. And having played for instance Cole's Personal Story, It's a great piece of character for him. But surely, if it were your character, you'd want to at least have the chance of being defeated?  Else what's the point.  Cole's story is effectively a cut scene you get to benefit from but it's still only a cut scene.

 

Again, in continuing to level and get stronger you're delving into the downside of HC  albeit it can't be helped, in that as a volunteer set of devs they literally haven't the team to build out the way you're talking about.  Or at least that's my take on it.

[Snarky]

Making a very strong toon takes a month or so from scratch (if you follow advice) and a few days if you are established.  (have cash, know the speed level runs etc) 

 

Incarnating a very strong toon fully, another few days tops.  So a week, done with game.

 

Hmmmm....wait a minute.  Wasn't there something I was supposed to be doing?  Oh, right.  Playing.  I started a toon in Late October, soloed all redside arcs (every single story arc. from every contact) and am now badging with them.  1050 badges of 1500.  Lot of stuff left to do.  But, yeah.  He is 'done'  as far as how powerful.  I could maybe squeeze a bit more out of the build, but I am happy with how he plays

 

I am happy with how he plays.   Hmmm.  Right, there ya go.

 

 

[Techwright]

1 hour ago, Darmian said:

Well, we're in "different strokes for different folks" territory here, really.  Me?  I want the game to go wider, more depth, more stories, out and out, not driven into a point (and this is my opinion rather than me assuming I'm speaking for many) of "I'm a god, give me god stuff".  I want to see the game's narrative and plot advance, that's not tied to "I'm level 90(+1) , so I need fights to be THIS hard.  Fallout from previous stories, what are the people doing.

 

I agree with you, however, I would note that there's actually lore to support the idea that your character is constantly growing in power for millenia:  the first Incarnate mission where you get to play that finally version of your character, undamageable and unstoppable by a host of the mightiest opponents.    So I think the real answer...and as always this is pie-in-the-sky wishing at this point...is to have both.  Allow progress, but slower, as keeping with the lore's idea of a very long time, and have a greater body of material in which Incarnates feel challenged.

[SuperPlyx]

Wouldn't a more powerful character need more challenging content ? or what's the point of it all.

IMO Content is needed above all else

[Darmian]

Content is exactly what's needed. But at the moment we're in the position of part time volunteer Devs leveraging existing assets. Content as regards story can be done, we do it ourselves in a limited way in the AE, but right now, there are boundaries that are being hit. 

[Darmian]

15 minutes ago, SuperPlyx said:

Wouldn't a more powerful character need more challenging content ? or what's the point of it all.

IMO Content is needed above all else

What's challenging to one player, not character, may not be challenging to another. And both need to be addressed in some way. I'd rather play "The Last of Us" than "Dead or Alive", but that's me.

And challenging for a character? Is your character a powerful character because they have all Superman's powers, or because they are Superman? Those aren't the same thing and each approach I'd warrant is part of the choices the dev team are looking at. Again, working within their current boundaries. One of which is also ensuring the stability of the code.

Different strokes.

Edited March 11, 2021 by Darmian

[Darmian]

29 minutes ago, Techwright said:

I agree with you, however, I would note that there's actually lore to support the idea that your character is constantly growing in power for millenia:  the first Incarnate mission where you get to play that finally version of your character, undamageable and unstoppable by a host of the mightiest opponents.    So I think the real answer...and as always this is pie-in-the-sky wishing at this point...is to have both.  Allow progress, but slower, as keeping with the lore's idea of a very long time, and have a greater body of material in which Incarnates feel challenged.

Yep, the lore is there. Lore made by a full time dev team. Right now we are moving forward, it's not fast enough for some. That's unfortunate.

[Troo]

2 hours ago, Bursurkur said:

 I've played games where I've seen people with levels over 1000.

[SuperPlyx]

14 minutes ago, Darmian said:

What's challenging to one player, not character, may not be challenging to another.

That seems like different discussion all together.

 

14 minutes ago, Darmian said:

Is your character a powerful character because they have all Superman's powers, or because they are Superman?

This reminds me of that meme from the office: "they are the same picture" 

 

OP said he wanted characters to keep leveling and to increase there HP, End and Damage...that would make that character a more powerful version.

My thing is why do that if you don't have something to challenge that more powerful character. It just seems pointless to me. But that just my simple opinion.

[Luminara]

2 hours ago, Bursurkur said:

 There's a certain allure to when you walk in, everyone bow down in awe lol.

 

I don't think anyone plays Co* to impress others.

 

2 hours ago, Bursurkur said:

I think that would retain people who love to focus on  one toon to continue to make it stronger while not taking away from others who wants to create many toons. So what do you guys think?

 

People can already solo the hardest content in the game, with sufficient ease that they impose their own challenges just to feel like they're accomplishing something.  Look at some of the longer discussions right here on the first page of this sub-forum.  Unlimited power doesn't seem to be the thing that most want.  Something to do with the power they already have... that might be a better course.

[Darmian]

21 minutes ago, SuperPlyx said:

That seems like different discussion all together.

 

Perhaps it is but it's very much related if it is.

 

21 minutes ago, SuperPlyx said:

This reminds me of that meme from the office: "they are the same picture" 

Ah. I don't know the meme. So I have no idea whether you're agreeing, disagreeing or indifferent.

 

 

[Techwright]

1 hour ago, Troo said:

What happens at those levels, Troo?  Does it just show advancement?  or is there some reward?  I'd have thought ever last corner of the Incarnate build window might be filled out by then.

[Troo]

Beyond the current incarnates there were future incarnates planned which I would expect to come into play at some point. But yeah level 1007 isn't going to do anything growth wise.

 

That said, I have heard stories that when you hit 2,500 the graphics bend a little as you walk by objects and doors that were previously unopenable allow you to pass through the geometry.

[Nemu]

When you hit vet level 9999 you turn into a gull. The most powerful being in the whole CoX Universe!

[twozerofoxtrot]

5 hours ago, Bursurkur said:

So what do you guys think?

I think people like your cousin would get bored even faster. 

[SaintD]

Trying to pander to such players is an unwinnable situation, and resulted in the relentless and ever more ludicrous vandalization of the story and background of Warcraft. Whatever additional cap you put in and extra achievements to be acquired....will be hit as quickly as possible. And then they'll go back to complaining for another bump.

It's gaming power creep of the worst kind, and it's a cancer for long running MMO franchises.

[Gulbasaur]

9 hours ago, Bursurkur said:

I think that would retain people who love to focus on  one toon to continue to make it stronger while not taking away from others who wants to create many toons. So what do you guys think?

The game is already too easy when you hit top level and round out your character. Current end-game blasters often have higher defence than old end-game tankers. Power creep is already an issue in many aspects of gameplay, both in terms of what's available for powers (the later ones are generally stronger or better rounded than earlier ones, which are often one-trick ponies) and cheap IOs have caused a massive power elevation already.

 

The game needs harder content before it needs stronger characters.

[Parabola]

The fact that levelling stopped at 50 and the devs were always adamant that wouldn't change was one of the selling points of coh to me. This game encourages alting and having an achievable ceiling is good when you are staring at a roster of 80+ alts all demanding your attention.

 

I can see how it might feel limiting if you are a one character player but how people do that is a bit beyond me. I've created characters in the past that I've logged into atlas with and immediately logged back out to create another character because another idea ocurred to me as it was loading. I forced myself to have a main for a bit and got a load of badges but I realised it just wasn't fun. No matter how much I enjoy the way one character plays I need the variety of other powersets and ATs.

 

Even the incarnate system is to me an unwelcome extra grind on top of the journey to 50 and it took development time away from making the game broader to make it taller. My strong reservations about the design and balance of the incarnate system don't help of course!

[Shred Monkey]

13 hours ago, Bursurkur said:

What if after Incarnate, every time you level, you get a point to add to your "attributes", say your HP, or Endurance, or Damage, etc.  

OK... First.  I'm a type of player who does focus on just a few toons.   I have around 30 alts now, but generally I have a tank, an AoE damage specialist, and A ST damage specialist.  I play them up to a maxed out build and just keep playing them.  Occasionally I make a new alt, and they either get retired or replace one of those 3 toons.

 

Now, with that said, I think there needs to be an endpoint to our "growth."  For my own sanity there needs to be a point where I am not chasing 1 more point of damage.  As of now, I never farm.  I have a personal position against this type of activity as it takes away from so much of the actual "fun stuff" in the game.  But if I'm in a position where there's a enemy I can't kill at Vet level 1 that I will be able to kill at Vet level 1000... I'm gonna farm the heck out of that toon to get to vet level 1000 and hate myself the whole time.  And if 2000 vet levels makes me even stronger, then I'm going to keep on farming... and if it never stops, the entire game will change for me and it will be only about building a better farmer. 

 

I know it's silly because this change is something I could completely ignore (just like I ignore farming today), but knowing myself as I do, I won't do that.  That change would destroy the game for me.  This doesn't mean I'm opposed to doing something with vet levels that grants increasing power... but there has to be an endpoint or I will keep chasing that carrot until I run myself to death.

 

 

[Sailboat]

I really, REALLY like being able to "finish" a character.  I hate the idea of never maturing.  I have a hard time with Incarnate abilities, to be honest.

 

I still play Diablo III, which has unlimited "paragon levels" that work like what you described, and you fight an unlimited increasing enemy strength in scaling "greater rifts."  It's fine, but it's a narrow kind of stunt as far as games go -- you compete for highest rift level and best time...and...uh...then you go play COH/V.

 

edited to add:  also, shouldn't this be in the Suggestions forum?

Edited March 11, 2021 by Sailboat

[Bursurkur]

As Darmien said, "different strokes for different folks"
I don't see how this change would break COX for anyone from playing the game as they already want to play it.  It would not prevent anyone from playing every story arc in the game, it won't prevent anyone from creating as many alts as they want, it won't prevent anyone for looking for shinies, it won't even prevent people from enjoying Zone PvP since each zone already cap the levels and even disallow incarnate powers.  I think the only thing that would be affected might be Arena PvP if they chose to allow it and of course bragging rights.  I don't think it's unreasonable for someone to invest five years into his thermal defender and got him to level 3000 to be able beat a three months old decked out level 100 Fire/Engy blaster.  Even the goddess of healing should be able to defeat the toughest human warrior.  This change actually would allow people to break free from the pigeon holes of having to select certain AT or power sets to be powerful (wreck your opponents).  Now any of your toons can be powerful if that is what you want and are willing to invest in it.
I would say that for the folks who would be interested in going down this road, they would be perfectly happy to chase the carrot down this endless road whenever they don't want to create another toon or run another TF. Yes some people do want the doorway to bend a little as they walk pass :) You won't even need to come up with endless storylines to please these folks.  They're already happily chasing that +1 carrot down the endless road.  While you'll probably see some people leaving cause they've played every story arc in the game and nothing new has come out for six months, you would probably still see these other people logging in everyday to chase that +1 carrot.

[DougGraves]

Players have unlimited power.  The problem you have is that they reach it. 

 

The devs could simply wipe the characters and make it harder to reach unlimited power.  Remove AE farming, remove the XP multipliers, etc.  Make IO sets massively expensive.

 

But the players wanted to reach the end quickly.  They wanted unlimited power quickly and effortlessly.

[Doc_Scorpion]

10 hours ago, SaintD said:

Trying to pander to such players is an unwinnable situation, and resulted in the relentless and ever more ludicrous vandalization of the story and background of Warcraft. Whatever additional cap you put in and extra achievements to be acquired....will be hit as quickly as possible. And then they'll go back to complaining for another bump.

It's gaming power creep of the worst kind, and it's a cancer for long running MMO franchises.

Quoted.  For. Truth.

Level cap/player power bumps are a treadmill, you just keep going and you never get anywhere.

[Techwright]

16 hours ago, Troo said:

 

 

That said, I have heard stories that when you hit 2,500 the graphics bend a little as you walk by objects and doors that were previously unopenable allow you to pass through the geometry.

Ah, now I understand why the Tenth Doctor could snap his fingers and the Tardis opened.