Focused Feedback: Travel Power Updates (Build 1)

[Navigator]

7 minutes ago, QuiJon said:

I am coming to this late and have not read every page of this thread, however i guess my question is WHY? 

 

I mean i like over all the changes you are saying exist in the travel pools. But if afterburner is going to be essentially a free power with flight now, and all it will do is increase long distance flight times, why can it not functions in that way as it does now and provide that boost without the timer. Take away its defense bonus(which i am assuming was already done and put into that combat flight power) and keep it as "only effecting self". At that point its only purpose and possible use is just to get from point a to point b as quickly as possible and will still need to be turned off in order to take part in combat and give it that similar 10 second cooldown to turn it back on. Wouldnt that end the complaints, allow 1 power to do what 2 powers currently do without being able to exploit its use? 

 

On a second note for me personally, if flight and related powers are going to have that popup menu anyway, perhaps it might be fun or easier for people to also put on that popup menu the various flight poses that are emotes now. Helps clear our buttons and makes it easier to change on the "fly".

 

87.9mph is going to remain the "always-on" toggled flight speed cap, for reasons of ease-vs-velocity balance with the other travel powers.  Here's what I've found so far with testing:

 

2x Flight Speed IOs in Fly = 87.9mph

Fly + Evasive Maneuvers running (with no IOs in either) = 87.9mph

 

Afterburner let's us exceed that cap for flight speed, but only in exchange for being a limited-duration toggle, to avoid breaking the balance equation.  Given the alternative (no way to exceed 87.9mph at all) I think it's a fair compromise, even if it's conceptually troubling for some.

[Apparition]

13 minutes ago, Terminal said:

 

Well part of my concern is that while group/solos and the way they approach missions can and do use full stealth approaches, it is still something that people have to go out of the way to do. Pick up groups right now cannot reliably full-stealth a mission unless they have a person with invisibility run to the end and teleport them all there. This would change that basically.

 

And another aspect of the problem was I think it devalues builds that already specialize in or have built-in stealth or full invisibility options. Like Cloak of Darkness for example. Moreover, now everybody can just freely experience the full stalker lifestyle from level 4 onwards. 

 

So what I am getting at is that full combat invisibility should, in my opinion, remain something you have to deliberately build towards/go out of the way to achieve. Both because I think the current 'feel' and way the game is played generally is better without full combat invisibility available to everyone from level 4, and also because it gives people who do go out of their way to build that way a benefit/way to stand out in a team setting. 

 

I am mostly coming at this from a weird psychological/way to play view, so some of what I am saying may not be entirely clear. I hope people get the gist of it though.

 

People with both Super Speed and a Stealth IO enhancement have full invisibility as well, and that has been possible for a long, long time, (years prior to sunset).  So full invisibility on non-Stalker ATs has already been possible at level 12, IIRC (the earliest level that you can slot the Stealth IO enhancement) with one pool power pick and one IO enhancement.

Having the same at level 4 with one pool power pick isn’t a large stretch, IMO.

[QuiJon]

56 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

87.9mph is the Fly speed cap with a travel power. You aren't going to get any permanent toggle which takes you above that speed while flying because it needs to be balanced against the other travel powers.

 

Sorry to quote this same thing again but i just noticed this part and was wondering, if Fly was really kind of already the slowest of the 3 main travel powers (sorry porters i never really count you) and they all got buffs also. Speed is up to 120 mph, was already normally the fastest travel power because people paired it with temp and P2W powers or CJing etc. to over come the vertical limits and now it gets its own jump mechanic to do that itself. So really you could say that this change not only boost base speed but takes away one of its biggest limiting factors that was always the reason given for why it was the fastest. Super Jump was the second fastest really. Even at 87 MPH on my Flight+AB i was pretty consistantly still getting beat to missions by jumpers, and they get a fulltime increase and the ability for part of that time to get rid of the "falling" that slowed them down. 

 

So i guess my question is, i get saying we have to balance the powers, but they never had been before. Speed was always the fastest to a door, jumping was almost always second flight 3rd. And now you make these changes and most of them i like, but in regards to their over all balance they are being set to be exactly the same as they always have. You have essentially left the same speed gaps in their over all caps that always existed and simply attempted to take away eaches downside. But .9 miles of say afterburner doesnt even allow a player to cross a location like IP or Talos Island or a Shard completely before it turns off for a minute. So at that point a flier now drops back down to 87 mph all the while a speedster is still running 120 mph with his jumping still compensating for his vertical limits. So in some instances these changes, wont they actually make jumpers and fliers fall behind even further?

[Terminal]

3 minutes ago, Apparition said:

 

People with both Super Speed and a Stealth IO enhancement have full invisibility as well, and that has been possible for a long, long time, (years prior to sunset).  So full invisibility on non-Stalker ATs has already been possible at level 12, IIRC (the earliest level that you can slot the Stealth IO enhancement) with one pool power pick and one IO enhancement.

Having the same at level 4 with one pool power pick isn’t a large stretch, IMO.

 

That is just the thing I was getting at by saying you currently have to go out of the way to build towards it.

 

Right now, full combat invisibility for any AT requires taking stealth, or having a stealth power built-in one of your sets, and then a stealth travel IO. That is a requirement of at least two power picks and an enhancement slot, and a lot of builds will not have the wiggle room to leap for that.

 

This is a single power, no enhancements required, available at level 4.

[Infinitum]

8 minutes ago, QuiJon said:

Sorry to quote this same thing again but i just noticed this part and was wondering, if Fly was really kind of already the slowest of the 3 main travel powers (sorry porters i never really count you) and they all got buffs also. Speed is up to 120 mph, was already normally the fastest travel power because people paired it with temp and P2W powers or CJing etc. to over come the vertical limits and now it gets its own jump mechanic to do that itself. So really you could say that this change not only boost base speed but takes away one of its biggest limiting factors that was always the reason given for why it was the fastest. Super Jump was the second fastest really. Even at 87 MPH on my Flight+AB i was pretty consistantly still getting beat to missions by jumpers, and they get a fulltime increase and the ability for part of that time to get rid of the "falling" that slowed them down. 

 

So i guess my question is, i get saying we have to balance the powers, but they never had been before. Speed was always the fastest to a door, jumping was almost always second flight 3rd. And now you make these changes and most of them i like, but in regards to their over all balance they are being set to be exactly the same as they always have. You have essentially left the same speed gaps in their over all caps that always existed and simply attempted to take away eaches downside. But .9 miles of say afterburner doesnt even allow a player to cross a location like IP or Talos Island or a Shard completely before it turns off for a minute. So at that point a flier now drops back down to 87 mph all the while a speedster is still running 120 mph with his jumping still compensating for his vertical limits. So in some instances these changes, wont they actually make jumpers and fliers fall behind even further?

They arent going to run or jump across the shard - thats why the Eagles are always > the Earthworms.  lol

[Apparition]

18 minutes ago, Terminal said:

 

That is just the thing I was getting at by saying you currently have to go out of the way to build towards it.

 

Right now, full combat invisibility for any AT requires taking stealth, or having a stealth power built-in one of your sets, and then a stealth travel IO. That is a requirement of at least two power picks and an enhancement slot, and a lot of builds will not have the wiggle room to leap for that.

 

This is a single power, no enhancements required, available at level 4.

 

But what I'm saying is that it doesn't require stealth and two power picks.  It only requires one power pick at level four, and then one enhancement at level twelve.  No wiggle room involved.  Just slot the IO enhancement in Sprint or Power Slide and call it a day.  This is just simply removing the IO enhancement from the equation.  Now whether or not that is a step too far is a judgment call.

Edited March 14, 2021 by Apparition

[Terminal]

2 minutes ago, Apparition said:

 

But what I'm saying is that it doesn't require stealth and two power picks.  It only requires one power pick at level four, and then one enhancement at level twelve.  No wiggle room involved.  Just slot the IO enhancement in Sprint or Power Slide and call it a day.

 

But the thing is that is not full-blown combat invisibility. That is 'invisibility kind of as long as you keep moving at full-bore.' Super-speed by itself already grants full invisibility while in-motion, and combining hover with super-speed to 'slow-drift' invisibly past mobs has also been a thing for a long time. But nobody uses either of those tactics regularly, because on top of being iffy in efficacy, they are kind of hard to do all the time. Actual, true combat invisibility that just works with no strings attached requires a little bit more.

 

Except here, where it is just a single power pick at level 4.

[Wavicle]

I think Infiltration should also have a server tray ability.

Here's my suggestion:

Exfiltration

Basically, Afterburner but on the ground. Dramatically increases your running speed. Timed toggle, 30 second duration, 60 second cooldown. Not usable in combat, suppressed if you attack.

[Templarstone]

Just now, Terminal said:

 

But the thing is that is not full-blown combat invisibility. That is 'invisibility kind of as long as you keep moving at full-bore.' Super-speed by itself already grants full invisibility while in-motion, and combining hover with super-speed to 'slow-drift' invisibly past mobs has also been a thing for a long time. But nobody uses either of those tactics regularly, because on top of being iffy in efficacy, they are kind of hard to do all the time. Actual, true combat invisibility that just works with no strings attached requires a little bit more.

 

Except here, where it is just a single power pick at level 4.

Super Speed +Stealth io =  full invisibility.  Always has,  you dont have to be moving for it to be either.  No strings , just a ss +stealth io either slotted in ss or a sprint

This is very very common and very easy 

[Terminal]

1 minute ago, Templarstone said:

Super Speed +Stealth io =  full invisibility.  Always has,  you dont have to be moving for it to be either.  No strings , just a ss +stealth io either slotted in ss or a sprint

This is very very common and very easy 

 

Well, I did not know that and this is my first time hearing about it, so thank you. 

 

That said, maybe it should not be that way. 

 

Maybe I am still overthinking this and people will continue to just not take concealment at all. Maybe I just personally overvalue combat invisibility and assume everybody else will see and realize it is basically a must-have, especially if it is that easy to get. So maybe I am reacting to nothing.

 

Even in light of what you are saying, I still think the change is a little too much, and still for the reasons I stated earlier.

 

[DoctorDitko]

I think I really like these changes. I appreciate folks who specialize in Travel powers (like my Teleporter, who wants to be The Best Teleporter, dammit!) may feel like their specialness is infringed, but the benefits for everybody else seem worth it.

 

Please, please, make Group Fly keep everyone at the caster's speed, though!

 

The old days of "Cast Group Fly (endure bitching from teammates) then put Follow on random teammate" (to keep together) was a pain.

 

Nice work, guys!

[Doc_Scorpion]

On 3/13/2021 at 10:11 AM, Doc_Scorpion said:

Just tested Double Jump... and OMG!  I could almost reach the flight ceiling and covered 1725 yards horizontally* (vice 404 with it off). 

Previous record: .98 miles.  New record, with a little better understanding of how to use Double Jump (get up near the flight ceiling!): 1.28 miles.

[Glacier Peak]

55 minutes ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

Previous record: .98 miles.  New record, with a little better understanding of how to use Double Jump (get up near the flight ceiling!): 1.28 miles.
 

Not that it is very useful data, but I did the same thing in the Chantry and was able to jump 1.43 miles by waiting until I was at the fall of my first leap and then holding forward. (Don't mind the jet pack, I just used it to stop mid-air to get a snapshot).

 

Edit: I just realized I could've gone further if I utilized the vertical speed jump from Super Speed before turning on Super Jump and then using double jump at the top of that leap!

Edited March 15, 2021 by Glacier Peak

[zenblack]

8 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

Hmm. First, thanks for all the hard work.

 

Some considerations,

 

Now that 2 similar travel powers that are not mutually exclusive, this presents a problem. Before, I have alt tray slot 9 and 10 keybound to 2 side mouse buttons under my thumb. I put CJ in 9 and SJ in 10. I hit one Button and CJ is togged on, I hit thebother and it toggles on SJ, while toggling off CJ, because they are mutually exclusive. I switch back and forth, in and out of combat. Now, I will be running with both on, as they don't "toggle" between each other. To rectify this, I could create 2 macros, each an inversion of the other, where one turns on cj and one SJ, both turning off their counterpart. Unfortunately, now the icon is macro icon, not the original icon. If I don't monitor this or make macro, I could accidentally be running both, which is a much higher end drain. All my travel powers on all toons are like this, those two specific mouse buttons are the two travel powers using alttray9 and 10, under my thumb, instinct to switch back and forth.

 

No you can make a single keybind/macro that will switch between each toggle exclusively, it just won't be the way you did it previously.

[BrandX]

1 hour ago, Terminal said:

 

Well, I did not know that and this is my first time hearing about it, so thank you. 

 

That said, maybe it should not be that way. 

 

Maybe I am still overthinking this and people will continue to just not take concealment at all. Maybe I just personally overvalue combat invisibility and assume everybody else will see and realize it is basically a must-have, especially if it is that easy to get. So maybe I am reacting to nothing.

 

Even in light of what you are saying, I still think the change is a little too much, and still for the reasons I stated earlier.

 

 

Plenty will still take Concealment.  Concept and it gives +Def All.  

[zenblack]

3 hours ago, Terminal said:

 

Well part of my concern is that while group/solos and the way they approach missions can and do use full stealth approaches, it is still something that people have to go out of the way to do. Pick up groups right now cannot reliably full-stealth a mission unless they have a person with invisibility run to the end and teleport them all there. This would change that basically.

 

And another aspect of the problem was I think it devalues builds that already specialize in or have built-in stealth or full invisibility options. Like Cloak of Darkness for example. Moreover, now everybody can just freely experience the full stalker lifestyle from level 4 onwards. 

 

So what I am getting at is that full combat invisibility should, in my opinion, remain something you have to deliberately build towards/go out of the way to achieve. Both because I think the current 'feel' and way the game is played generally is better without full combat invisibility available to everyone from level 4, and also because it gives people who do go out of their way to build that way a benefit/way to stand out in a team setting. 

 

I am mostly coming at this from a weird psychological/way to play view, so some of what I am saying may not be entirely clear. I hope people get the gist of it though.

 

I would take this argument seriously except for the fact that Celerity:Stealth exists, every character can slot it, and it's all you need.

[Ironblade]

I have some feedback regarding the existence of some of these changes, rather than the details of the changes themselves.  Page 1 of this issue changed/removed/modified powers such that some existing characters needed to respec.

 

And now you're doing it again.  You're rewriting existing powers and I'm going to have to respec multiple characters.  It would be great if we could have a moratorium on this type of change for a while, once Issue 27 is done.

[Hartanna]

11 hours ago, ninja surprise said:

 

Kinda agree with you here, except that not every creature flies at the same speed and humans can go really, really fast in the air due to technology.

 

True, but Kheldians on HC can also be Magic/Technology/other origins. If a human uses technology

or science to propel themselves, no reason Nova's shouldn't be able to as well.

Kheldians are just as intelligent, especially since they can take knowledge from their hosts.

 

I would suggest same goes for Dwarf teleport as does with Nova's flight. Both should really be on par

with their pool power counterparts. Why?

 

Pool, Epic and Patron powers have always been weaker than their primary/secondary counterparts.

For instance, Leadership is weaker than Arachnos Soldier leadership. Stone Mastery is weaker than Stone Control.

Medicine is unspeakably weaker compared to any other healing primaries/secondaries.

 

Having Nova Flight and Dwarf Teleport weaker than their pool power cousins is inconsistent with general

power design, at least thus far in the games life-span.

 

And again it feels awful to have someone speed past my Nova with their pool power flight as I try to keep up.

I haven't had someone out-teleport my Dwarf yet, but just knowing I use the slowest version of teleport is meh.

 

If you think there is a good reason to handicap Shapeshifter's speed, please share your thoughts as to why.

Anyone really, not just the HC team.

 

And speaking of HC team, thanks much for the patch guys! I know it's a labor of love, and we appreciate

you all for it!

 

[Wavicle]

Just now, Hartanna said:

 

True, but Kheldians on HC can also be Magic/Technology/other origins. If a human uses technology

or science to propel themselves, no reason Nova's shouldn't be able to as well.

Kheldians are just as intelligent, especially since they can take knowledge from their hosts.

 

I would suggest same goes for Dwarf teleport as does with Nova's flight. Both should really be on par

with their pool power counterparts. Why?

 

Pool, Epic and Patron powers have always been weaker than their primary/secondary counterparts.

For instance, Leadership is weaker than Arachnos Soldier leadership. Stone Mastery is weaker than Stone Control.

Medicine is unspeakably weaker compared to any other healing primaries/secondaries.

 

Having Nova Flight and Dwarf Teleport weaker than their pool power cousins is inconsistent with general

power design, at least thus far in the games life-span.

 

And again it feels awful to have someone speed past my Nova with their pool power flight as I try to keep up.

I haven't had someone out-teleport my Dwarf yet, but just knowing I use the slowest version of teleport is meh.

 

If you think there is a good reason to handicap Shapeshifter's speed, please share your thoughts as to why.

Anyone really, not just the HC team.

 

And speaking of HC team, thanks much for the patch guys! I know it's a labor of love, and we appreciate

you all for it!

 

The Nova form isn't a Kheldians natural form. They borrowed it from another species. The Fly that the human form PB gets and the TP that the human form WS gets are equal to the pool versions. Only the travel powers from the forms are weaker, which seems fair since you get them for free.

[Hartanna]

3 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

The Nova form isn't a Kheldians natural form. They borrowed it from another species. The Fly that the human form PB gets and the TP that the human form WS gets are equal to the pool versions. Only the travel powers from the forms are weaker, which seems fair since you get them for free.

 

Actually they're not free. You have to pick Nova or Dwarf in order to get their travel power.

 

On the other hand, Flight for a Peacebringer and Teleport from a Warshade ARE actaully free,

so by your logic the PB/WS free travels should be nerfed, which I disagree with.

 

But yes it is true that it is a borrowed form, however it is literally a form of energy and therefore shouldn't

pack nearly as much air resistance as a physical human.

 

Appreciate the response 🙂

 

[Captain Powerhouse]

4 hours ago, Shaman Coyote said:

Not that I'm complaining but according to my combat attributes, the +def for Evasive Maneuvers does not suppress when in combat. It makes my Energy Aura brute seriously tough. Possibly OP tough.

 

Edit: The reason I mention this is that the power description says it should not be available during combat.

 

Double check the total defense. The way suppression works, the number continues to be displayed, but it is not added up to the total defense value.

[macskull]

3 hours ago, Terminal said:

 

That is just the thing I was getting at by saying you currently have to go out of the way to build towards it.

 

Right now, full combat invisibility for any AT requires taking stealth, or having a stealth power built-in one of your sets, and then a stealth travel IO. That is a requirement of at least two power picks and an enhancement slot, and a lot of builds will not have the wiggle room to leap for that.

 

This is a single power, no enhancements required, available at level 4.

You're forgetting the opportunity cost of taking the concealment pool, which doesn't really have that much useful stuff. That being said, every single one of my PvE builds has capped stealth without any additional powers or slots because I take Super Speed and slap a +stealth IO into one of the flavors of sprint if the character doesn't have another means of stealth in-set.

Edited March 15, 2021 by macskull

[Captain Powerhouse]

3 hours ago, Terminal said:

Am I making any sense here?

 

Hide grants 150ft stealth, Stealth provides 55ft.

 

55ft is usually enough for most content, but not all, and there might always be more content that gets you there.

Players already could add Super Speed with one stealth IO for identical results, better results, really, since its extremely faster movement power than Infiltration would be (and at this time, you cant use Infiltration with Stealth.) On top, Super Speed is already on a pool almost everyone takes due to hasten.

 

This does not make it "ok", but I find it unlikely there will be a mass adoption of Stealth just to speed-run missions.

[SwitchFade]

2 hours ago, zenblack said:

 

No you can make a single keybind/macro that will switch between each toggle exclusively, it just won't be the way you did it previously.

Which isn't  a solution because now I'll have to pay attention to which power is on. Before, I knew because I hit one Button or the other, like being I a certain gear based on the position of the shifter, could be 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th...

 

 

[Wavicle]

"Each jump while Double Jump is on cooldown has a X% chance to reset the cooldown of Double Jump."

That's an idea I had to make the difference between Double Jump and the Jump Pack/Steam Jump more than just ~.3 end/sec.