Focused Feedback: Travel Power Updates (Build 1)

[Starforge]

I didn't mention numbers either, except the numbers of how many slots were in my flight-related powers.

[Wavicle]

29 minutes ago, Bopper said:

It is exactly the same. There is maybe appeal to having a graphics-less jump pack for character purposes. Personally, I would like to see a little extra with it, like not being shared cooldown with Jump Pack so that you could chain them...but that's just my opinion with no considerations for if that's balanced.

I don’t mind the shared cd, but it should have some improved function, even just a little.

[Wavicle]

7 minutes ago, arthurh35353 said:

And you just proved you can cherry pick and not respond to that it is now functionally different and all you care about is numbers.

 

To *REMOVE* evasive (because I got it for the 'speed boots' I now need to respec my level 50s with heavy IO builds and change power choices. And I no longer have a speed boost that is on all the time for long distance travel.

 

Nowhere did I mention a single number.

But your flying is now as fast as you were with quantum acceleration before. Your speed boost is literally on all the time.

[Wavicle]

27 minutes ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

Double Jump isn't a travel power, it's a tray power which enhances Super Jump (which is a travel power).  That being said @Bopper bopped it right square on the nail - my jumpers now have vertical travel and "get the eff away from Dodge" ability on par with flyers, without needing a temp power.  (Though some of that is intrinsic to the new scaling, not due to Double Jump.)  All for free, and having no time limits like the free temp powers.

Otherwise, yeah, it's still Super Jump with all it's disadvantages,  ("What comes up, must come down.  Preferably not in the middle of a mob.")  But it's way cooler and way more useful.

My only wish is that it had a little longer duration or a little shorter cooldown.  (Something closer to 50% duty cycle rather than the current 33%.)

 

In fact the current design fails at the stated design goal of having Real Travel Powers always be better than what you can get at p2w.


I was wrong about this @Bopper. Double Jump has only half the endurance cost of the Jump Pack, making it explicitly better.

Edited March 14, 2021 by Wavicle

[Shaman Coyote]

Not that I'm complaining but according to my combat attributes, the +def for Evasive Maneuvers does not suppress when in combat. It makes my Energy Aura brute seriously tough. Possibly OP tough.

 

Edit: The reason I mention this is that the power description says it should not be available during combat.

Edited March 14, 2021 by Shaman Coyote

[arthurh35353]

6 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

But your flying is now as fast as you were with quantum acceleration before. Your speed boost is literally on all the time.

I had a power I picked for travel that allowed me to travel at the top end for as long as I want (no number).

 

Now, that power has been removed for a combat power, so I will have to respec. My ability to go as fast as I possibly want all the time is now a finangly toggle that detoggles and only puts me at top speed sometimes. 

 

"But complicated engineering feature is better!"

 

"I want my super cruise mode back."

 

"No, you'll take our numbers or die!"

 

"I want my easy to use out of combat power max flight speed back. You can take your combat power back that you turned my NON-COMBAT power into."

 

"Well, we'd have to knock about 2/3rds of the speed bump off afterburner-"

 

"SOLD!"

[Bopper]

There seems to be a lot of confusion on what Afterburner does on Live. It does not increase your fly speed, it only increases your fly speed cap. The increase in fly speed is still being provided from your fly powers (swift, fly, etc).

 

Fly now comes with an automatic fly speed cap increase, so Fly on beta (without activating the Afterburner subpower) will be everything you had with Fly+AB on live. The minor exception, fly had some of its speed buff turned down as it no longer is a combination of 4 fly effects and the Fly Speed modifier table no longer scales with level

Edited March 14, 2021 by Bopper

[Bopper]

5 minutes ago, Shaman Coyote said:

Not that I'm complaining but according to my combat attributes, the +def for Evasive Maneuvers does not suppress when in combat. It makes my Energy Aura brute seriously tough. Possibly OP tough.

 

Edit: The reason I mention this is that the power description says it should not be available during combat.

I believe there's a bug report on that, but if not, please make one.

[arthurh35353]

Huh. Since they want to do silly popup so you have to click another power, how about we leave Afterburner there with its full 100% fly cap increase for 33% of the time and just do a second power of +33% fly cap increase for 100% of the time and call it Supercruise mode. Make them mutually exclusive.

 

I know I'll only ever use Supercruise myself, but someone loves their pet project power and wants to force it on us.

Edited March 14, 2021 by arthurh35353

[Macchiato]

Moaning about Afterburner aside, I'm genuinely impressed by how most of the other things being complained about (read: offered actual feedback on) are universally in regards to GFX and aesthetics. _{(Though, I don't personally see the point in Infiltration even with the slot investment, but that's another story; I'm still trying to play around with it on the beta and there's genuinely not a lot that can be done to give it 'oomph' without overpowering other travel powers, I think. That, and something mentioned earlier in the thread about making a pass at Stealth are why I'm leaving it alone for now.)}

 

To be honest, I can see the argument for there needing to be a 2nd look at Travel Power animations and FX - if not in this Issue, then the next.

Because not only is there that known issue with Hover and Fly fighting for animations, the big concern about fusing the Concealment pool powers is that Invisibility's practically-transparent FX were supplanted by Stealth's more ghostly-but-still-tangible FX.

 

And on top of those two introduced with the changes in this beta, there's also the fact that Teleport still lacks a Min FX option in lieu of the big pop of light, as has been requested in the last Issue when Teleportation was reworked entirely.

 

What sucks about this situation is that all of these GFX options are valid and desirable. There are people who love this Magneto hover flight, there are people who prefer Stealth's ghostly transparency over the complete invisibility, and there are still plenty of other people (and even other characters owned by the same people) where the converse options would make more sense.

 

But with combining the Flight toggles, or literally fusing the Concealment powers, the number of power GFX options has decreased at the moment, and that is a concern in such an old game that lives and breathes on the amount of customization options it has.

Edited March 14, 2021 by Macchiato

[Jimmy]

20 minutes ago, arthurh35353 said:

I had a power I picked for travel that allowed me to travel at the top end for as long as I want (no number).

 

Now, that power has been removed for a combat power, so I will have to respec. My ability to go as fast as I possibly want all the time is now a finangly toggle that detoggles and only puts me at top speed sometimes. 

 

"But complicated engineering feature is better!"

 

"I want my super cruise mode back."

 

"No, you'll take our numbers or die!"

 

"I want my easy to use out of combat power max flight speed back. You can take your combat power back that you turned my NON-COMBAT power into."

 

"Well, we'd have to knock about 2/3rds of the speed bump off afterburner-"

 

"SOLD!"

87.9mph is the Fly speed cap with a travel power. You aren't going to get any permanent toggle which takes you above that speed while flying because it needs to be balanced against the other travel powers.

 

I will repeat: 87.8mph is the top end for long-distance flight. This hasn't changed from live, it just requires fewer powers and slots.

 

Afterburner is just an extra, in the same way that Translocation is. You don't have to use it if you don't like it.

 

Your argument simply doesn't hold water because you would be happier if this new version of Afterburner was removed entirely so nobody could use it. We won't be doing that just to satisfy you.

 

That's the end of it - if you continue clogging up the thread with posts about this same concern, they will be removed. Allow others to post their feedback without the noise.

[Navigator]

7 minutes ago, arthurh35353 said:

I had a power I picked for travel that allowed me to travel at the top end for as long as I want (no number).

 

Now, that power has been removed for a combat power, so I will have to respec. My ability to go as fast as I possibly want all the time is now a finangly toggle that detoggles and only puts me at top speed sometimes. 

 

"But complicated engineering feature is better!"

 

"I want my super cruise mode back."

 

"No, you'll take our numbers or die!"

 

"I want my easy to use out of combat power max flight speed back. You can take your combat power back that you turned my NON-COMBAT power into."

 

"Well, we'd have to knock about 2/3rds of the speed bump off afterburner-"

 

"SOLD!"

 

Evasive Maneuvers is now the Speed Boost Toggle that Afterburner used to be.

 

Live:  Fly + Afterburner = constant toggled high-speed out-of-combat cruise mode

Test:  Fly + Evasive Maneuvers = constant toggled higher-speed out-of-combat cruise mode

 

The two toggles on Test provide everything the two toggles on Live provide.  The new Afterburner isn't the replacement for the old Afterburner, it's a brand new free power that's completely optional to use and provides a temporary extra speed bump as a completely novel bonus.

 

It really seems like your main complaint is that, even though the new version of the toggles exceeds the speed cap of the old toggles and hits the new higher cap, the mere existence of a temporary speed cap even above and beyond that one is some kind of conceptual inconvenience for you.  If you don't want to mess with the "complicated engineering" of the new temporary Afterburner power, don't use it and just stick to the two normal toggles to cruise faster than ever before.

[Navigator]

One thing I really appreciate about the new Flight changes is that I can either hit the cruise cap with two power picks (Fly + EM) or just with two slots in Fly and two IOs.  It gives me options for both power-tight builds and slot-tight builds.  I'm really loving this patch.

[Terminal]

Just checking in before I actually start discussing something like this seriously, is it ok to discuss changes to the travel pools here that do not have anything to do with the actual movement/travel aspects? 

[Infinitum]

Some other tidbits i am discovering:

 

This bind works well for me to activate AB now /bind mousechord "powexecname afterburner"

 

Also new AB allows you to fly at that speed for .9 miles until recharge - thats pretty good that will get you pretty much anywhere you need to get to in zone - aside from a talos, IP or shard zone traverse.

 

Even when it drops at that point you are still going at previous Live speed caps.

[GM Lines]

36 minutes ago, Shaman Coyote said:

Not that I'm complaining but according to my combat attributes, the +def for Evasive Maneuvers does not suppress when in combat. It makes my Energy Aura brute seriously tough. Possibly OP tough.

 

Edit: The reason I mention this is that the power description says it should not be available during combat.

 

The combat attributes has a habit of showing the addition of bonuses even if they're suppressed. Keep an eye on the total and see if it varies in and out of combat. My experience is that it's worked correctly for its current iteration.

 

But yes, place a bug report if it's not behaving.

[GM Lines]

7 minutes ago, Terminal said:

Just checking in before I actually start discussing something like this seriously, is it ok to discuss changes to the travel pools here that do not have anything to do with the actual movement/travel aspects? 

 

Please do, as long as it relates to the changes noted in the OP of this thread.

Otherwise, suggestions may be better off in the relevant forum.

Edited March 14, 2021 by GM Lines

[Macchiato]

4 minutes ago, Terminal said:

Just checking in before I actually start discussing something like this seriously, is it ok to discuss changes to the travel pools here that do not have anything to do with the actual movement/travel aspects? 

 

I don't see why not. Especially since the top of the thread contains the relevant notes for discussion, and Concealment is an example of a big shift from not being a travel pool, to suddenly being one. I also think that my post RE: GFX pushes it a little even though it is entirely relevant to travel pools as a whole, what with the GFX being cut or missing.

 

Just make sure to read and tinker with the changes in the Beta before anything else, please, a lot of confusion can be avoided by going in and poking at things before making a post. Not naming names.

Edited March 14, 2021 by Macchiato

[Terminal]

11 minutes ago, GM Lines said:

 

Please do!

 

Alright, here goes.

 

I have a big concern with the changes to the concealment pool. I like infiltration and its intended utility - that is fine as far as I am concerned. What I am actually fretting over is the change of stealth to full combat invisibility. I get the mentality behind the change - stealth and invisibility as separate powers are already highly redundant and nobody really takes invisibility except as an IO mule, but I think making full combat invisibility an open pool pick is a little too much. In particular I am now concerned about how the change is going to affect the solo and team dynamics/necessity and utility of stealth generally and overall. Right now, full teams not being able to reliably stealth past the entire body of a mission to just blitz the last room is what makes people have to actually slow down and play the game when they are not just farming. Even teams with supports that brought group stealth options like steamy mist cannot really reliably do it, but having full combat invisibility just dangling there in concealment as an open pick means you can have entire teams that can just ignore doing the entire mission, regardless of AT or the specific allocations of their builds.

 

And then from a solo perspective, you have sort of the same thing going on. If you are running police and scanner missions or even if you are doing regular contact runs, people will eventually decide they do not want to bother 'grinding' through the normal content of a mission and just perfect stealth the whole thing. That is why just playing a stalker who can freely play that way from the very start of the game is such a focus/thematic shift in gameplay, and this sort of devalues that.

 

I may be overthinking/sort of misplacing the point of this change. What I am mostly concerned over is the new stealth becoming sort of a new hasten. Everybody takes it because doing so instantly makes huge aspects of the game easier at minimal/no actual cost beyond having to pick the power itself. Only unlike with hasten, what is going to be impacted is not combat utility and efficacy, but just how people fundamentally play the game - or rather do not play the game. 

 

I just think keeping full combat invisibility exclusive to certain sets like Illusion and Stalkers etcetera is healthier for the solo/team dynamics of the game, and this move sorts of devalues the purpose of going *out of the way* to emphasize stealth capabilities in a build. Even though you can still get full combat invisibility on most ATs/builds currently, at least you still have to go out of the way to do it, it's something you have to dedicate multiple powers and build slots to. This change just reduces it to a single power pick at level 4.

 

Am I making any sense here?

Edited March 14, 2021 by Terminal

[Macchiato]

12 minutes ago, Terminal said:

 

Alright, here goes.

 

I have a big concern with the changes to the concealment pool.

 

Basically, you're concerned that making Stealth more accessible and potent will negatively affect the way people tackle missions, even though as you say previously, people had to go out of their way to build group/solo stealth capability?

 

tbh, when it comes to combat invisibility, I'm a little lost on the details - I main a Stalker, I have a very simple view of how hide and invisibility work for me. But I guess I can see the concern, especially when you put it like you fear that it'll become a new must-have (although, I wouldn't mind an alternative meta pick to Hasten, it's a bit weird to me to have Stealth be it) for various builds.

 

Unfortunately, I don't know enough yet to really compare how the changes tackle that kind of shift, especially when you add player psychology to the mix.

Edited March 14, 2021 by Macchiato

[QuiJon]

34 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

87.9mph is the Fly speed cap with a travel power. You aren't going to get any permanent toggle which takes you above that speed while flying because it needs to be balanced against the other travel powers.

 

I will repeat: 87.8mph is the top end for long-distance flight. This hasn't changed from live, it just requires fewer powers and slots.

 

Afterburner is just an extra, in the same way that Translocation is. You don't have to use it if you don't like it.

 

Your argument simply doesn't hold water because you would be happier if this new version of Afterburner was removed entirely so nobody could use it. We won't be doing that just to satisfy you.

 

That's the end of it - if you continue clogging up the thread with posts about this same concern, they will be removed. Allow others to post their feedback without the noise.

I am coming to this late and have not read every page of this thread, however i guess my question is WHY? 

 

I mean i like over all the changes you are saying exist in the travel pools. But if afterburner is going to be essentially a free power with flight now, and all it will do is increase long distance flight times, why can it not functions in that way as it does now and provide that boost without the timer. Take away its defense bonus(which i am assuming was already done and put into that combat flight power) and keep it as "only effecting self". At that point its only purpose and possible use is just to get from point a to point b as quickly as possible and will still need to be turned off in order to take part in combat and give it that similar 10 second cooldown to turn it back on. Wouldnt that end the complaints, allow 1 power to do what 2 powers currently do without being able to exploit its use? 

 

On a second note for me personally, if flight and related powers are going to have that popup menu anyway, perhaps it might be fun or easier for people to also put on that popup menu the various flight poses that are emotes now. Helps clear our buttons and makes it easier to change on the "fly".

[Infinitum]

2 minutes ago, QuiJon said:

But if afterburner is going to be essentially a free power with flight now, and all it will do is increase long distance flight times, why can it not functions in that way as it does now and provide that boost without the timer. Take away its defense bonus(which i am assuming was already done and put into that combat flight power) and keep it as "only effecting self". At that point its only purpose and possible use is just to get from point a to point b as quickly as possible and will still need to be turned off in order to take part in combat and give it that similar 10 second cooldown to turn it back on. Wouldnt that end the complaints, allow 1 power to do what 2 powers currently do without being able to exploit its use? 

how will it increase long distance flight times?

[Terminal]

3 minutes ago, Macchiato said:

 

Basically, you're concerned that making Stealth more accessible and potent will negatively affect the way people tackle missions, even though as you say previously, people had to go out of their way to build group/solo stealth capability?

 

tbh, when it comes to combat invisibility, I'm a little lost on the details - I main a Stalker, I have a very simple view of how hide and invisibility work for me. But I guess I can see the concern, especially when you put your concerns like you fear that it'll become a new must-have (although, I wouldn't mind an alternative meta pick to Hasten, it's a bit weird to me to have Stealth be it) for various builds.

 

Unfortunately, I don't know enough yet to really compare how the changes tackle that kind of shift, especially when you add player psychology to the mix.

 

Well part of my concern is that while group/solos and the way they approach missions can and do use full stealth approaches, it is still something that people have to go out of the way to do. Pick up groups right now cannot reliably full-stealth a mission unless they have a person with invisibility run to the end and teleport them all there. This would change that basically.

 

And another aspect of the problem was I think it devalues builds that already specialize in or have built-in stealth or full invisibility options. Like Cloak of Darkness for example. Moreover, now everybody can just freely experience the full stalker lifestyle from level 4 onwards. 

 

So what I am getting at is that full combat invisibility should, in my opinion, remain something you have to deliberately build towards/go out of the way to achieve. Both because I think the current 'feel' and way the game is played generally is better without full combat invisibility available to everyone from level 4, and also because it gives people who do go out of their way to build that way a benefit/way to stand out in a team setting. 

 

I am mostly coming at this from a weird psychological/way to play view, so some of what I am saying may not be entirely clear. I hope people get the gist of it though.

[Macchiato]

3 minutes ago, QuiJon said:

On a second note for me personally, if flight and related powers are going to have that popup menu anyway, perhaps it might be fun or easier for people to also put on that popup menu the various flight poses that are emotes now. Helps clear our buttons and makes it easier to change on the "fly".

 

Honestly? That's... Not a bad idea. I do wish we could actually put stuff on trays like that ourselves, but having the flightpose emotes wouldn't be too bad. It'd also be a very, very sloppy workaround for the animation problems atm.

[Rathulfr]

I thought I'd share some data on my own data collection using my main, Rathstar (50+3 Energy/Energy Blaster with a full IO bonus sets build).  Here are the numbers for the same character, but the only difference is live prod versus beta.

 

LIVE PROD	Flight Speed	Ranged Defense	BETA	Flight Speed	Ranged Defense	FS Delta	RD Delta
Hover	29.95	31.42	Hover	30.16	31.42	0.70%	0.00%
Fly	58.63	28.50	Fly	62.41	28.50	6.45%	0.00%
Afterburner	30.16	41.10	Evasive Maneuvers	30.16	41.1	0.00%	0.00%
Hover+Afterburner	29.95	44.02	Hover+EvaMan	51.64	44.02	72.42%	0.00%
Fly+Afterburner	72.95	41.10	Fly+EvaMan	83.89	41.10	15.00%	0.00%
			Hover+Fly	62.41	31.42
			Hover+Fly+EvaMan	83.89	44.02
			Fly+Afterburner	79.22	28.50	8.59%	-30.66%
			Fly+EvaMan+AB	102.27	41.10	28.67%	0.00%
			Hover+Fly+EvaMan+AB	102.27	44.02	28.67%	6.63%

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nxcWqFYZUTLnBXeYklkWuSwMkRNXFj4-3pNegpfWrlo/edit?usp=sharing

 

(edit:) Please note that I had no other powers turned on/active, except for my Incarnate passives and any set bonuses from IOs.  So while the numbers may vary from build to build, the deltas/ratios should remain the same.

 

Edited March 14, 2021 by Rathulfr
add one more row to table