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Focused Feedback: PvP Changes (Release Candidate 1)


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  • Lead Game Master
Posted (edited)

 This is a Focused Feedback Thread

  • Please note that Focused Feedback threads are heavily moderated to ensure they remain on topic.
    • Any off-topic posts in these threads will be removed without warning.
    • The thread will be locked when no more feedback is required, but you are more than welcome to continue the discussion in a new thread.
  • The most up-to-date version of the changes will be listed in the first post.
  • The changes in each build will be posted as replies.
    • Most changes from the previous beta build are listed in green.
      • Green text will become white text in the next set of patch notes.
    • Any changes or fixes that are only relevant to the beta builds (ie: fixes / tweaks to new features) are listed in blue.
      • Blue text will be deleted in the next set of patch notes as it is only relevant to highlight changes between beta builds, not a changes from live.
    • Known issues are listed in purple.

 


Patch Notes for April 10th, 2021 - Issue 27: Second Chances, Page 2 (Release Candidate 1)

 

PvP Changes

Arena Maps

  • Lowered the max height on the Last Bastion arena map to 1150

Animation Rooting

  • In PvP only, all powers will only root for 75% of their total cast time

Mez Protection

  • The following powers now provide mez protection in PvP:
    • Storm Summoning > O2 Boost (stun/sleep only, 60s)
    • Sonic Resonance > Clarity (confuse/terrorize/held/immob/stun/sleep, 90s)
    • Empathy > Clear Mind (confuse/terrorize/held/immob/stun/sleep, 90s)
    • Force Fields > Insulation Shield (confuse/terrorize/held/immob/stun/sleep, 90s, main target only)
    • Kinetics > Increase Density (held/immob/stun only, 60s)
    • Pain Domination > Enforced Morale (confuse/terrorize/held/immob/stun/sleep, 90s)
    • Poison > Antidote (confuse/terrorize/held/immob/stun/sleep, 90s)
    • Thermal Radiation > Thaw (confuse/terrorize/held/immob/stun/sleep, 90s)
    • Electrical Affinity > Faraday Cage (held/immob/stun/sleep, while inside the static sphere)
    • Trick Arrow > EMP Field (generated by EMP Arrow, held/immob/stun/sleep, while inside the sphere)
  • Magnitude protection will not stack from multiple casters, but the strongest protection will always be active
  • Protection granted by these powers per AT:
    • Defender 10.81 Mag (requires 4 to 6 successful equal type mez to break through [based on the mez being mag 2 or mag 3])
    • Controller 8.65 Mag (requires 3 to 5 successful equal type mez to break through)
    • Corruptor 8.65 Mag (requires 3 to 5 successful equal type mez to break through)
    • Mastermind 6.49 Mag (requires 3 to 4 successful equal type mez to break through)

Other PvP Power Changes

  • Scrapper ATOs and Shinobi-Iri
    • Fixed a bug that prevented most Epic pool attacks from having their crit rate increased by these in PvP
  • Temp Powers > Raptor Pack
    • Duration reduced from 2 minutes to 45 seconds
  • Radiation Emission > Enervating Field (All Versions)
    • Increased -Resistance debuff from scale 2 to scale 3 (30% to 40% in the case of Defenders)
  • Empathy > Absorb Pain (All Versions)
    • Self Debuffs have been increased from 20s to 25s
  • Pain Domination > Share Pain (All versions)
    • Self Debuffs have been increased from 15s to 20s
  • Super Reflexes > Elude (All Versions)
    • This power now grants 20% Elusivity(AoE/Melee/Ranged) in PvP
  • Ninjutsu > Kuji-In_Retsu
    • This power now grants 20% Elusivity(AoE/Melee/Ranged) in PvP
  • Pool > Experimentation > Jaunt
    • In PvP, this power now recharges in 30s
  • Poison > Envenom
    • Resist Debuff lowered from 40% to 30% (defender values)
  • Pain Domination > Soothing Aura (All Versions)
    • In PvP, this power grant Heal over Time instead of +Regen, same way it does in PvE
  • Water Blast > Dehydrate (All Versions)
    • In PvP, this power grant Heal over Time instead of +Regen, same way it does in PvE
  • Time Manipulation > Temporal Mending (All Versions)
    • In PvP, this power grant Heal over Time instead of +Regen, same way it does in PvE
  • Time Manipulation > Chrono Shift (All Versions)
    • In PvP, this power grant Heal over Time instead of +Regen, same way it does in PvE
  • Nature Affinity > Regrowth (All Versions)
    • In PvP, this power grant Heal over Time instead of +Regen, same way it does in PvE
  • Stalker > Dark Melee > Shadow Maul

    • Hidden PvP Crit chance lowered from 100% to 50%

  • Stalker > Dual Blades >Ablating Strike

    • PvP damage chance against held/sleep foes lowered from 100% to 20%

  • Stalker > Staff Melee > Sky Splitter

    • PvP critical damage against held/sleep foes increased from 1.4905 to 2.9810

Edited by GM Arcanum

Please contact me on the Homecoming Discord for a faster response! GM Arcanum#7164


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  • Lead Game Master

Build 1 - March 13th

Spoiler

PvP Changes

Animation Rooting

  • In PvP only, all powers will only root for 75% of their total cast time

Mez Protection

  • The following powers now provide mez protection in PvP:
    • Storm Summoning > O2 Boost (stun/sleep only, 60s)
    • Sonic Resonance > Clarity (confuse/terrorize/held/immob/stun/sleep, 90s)
    • Empathy > Clear Mind (confuse/terrorize/held/immob/stun/sleep, 90s)
    • Force Fields > Insulation Shield (confuse/terrorize/held/immob/stun/sleep, 90s, main target only)
    • Kinetics > Increase Density (held/immob/stun only, 60s)
    • Pain Domination > Enforced Morale (confuse/terrorize/held/immob/stun/sleep, 90s)
    • Poison > Antidote (confuse/terrorize/held/immob/stun/sleep, 90s)
    • Thermal Radiation > Thaw (confuse/terrorize/held/immob/stun/sleep, 90s)
    • Electrical Affinity > Faraday Cage (held/immob/stun/sleep, while inside the static sphere)
    • Trick Arrow > EMP Field (generated by EMP Arrow, held/immob/stun/sleep, while inside the sphere)
  • Magnitude protection will not stack from multiple casters, but the strongest protection will always be active
  • Protection granted by these powers per AT:
    • Defender 10.81 Mag (requires 4 to 6 successful equal type mez to break through [based on the mez being mag 2 or mag 3])
    • Controller 8.65 Mag (requires 3 to 5 successful equal type mez to break through)
    • Corruptor 8.65 Mag (requires 3 to 5 successful equal type mez to break through)
    • Mastermind 6.49 Mag (requires 3 to 4 successful equal type mez to break through)

Epic Snipes

After investigating many reported bugs on Epic snipes, we found a large number of implementation inconsistencies introduced during the snipe revamp done a while back. Example: snipes should have always had 50% damage crits, some powers did, mostly on PvE, some didn't. This has resulted in the following changes:

  • Epic > Soul Mastery > Moonbeam
    • Internal Recharge reduced from 24s to 12s, power still recharges in 24s
    • PvP Base Damage (fast) lowered from 129.2401 to 102.16
    • PvP Base Damage (slow) lowered from 247.7055 to 181.14
    • Hidden and crit damage lowered to 50% of base damage for slow version
    • Quick Snipe range lowered from 150ft to 80ft
  • Epic > Mace Mastery > Mace Beam
    • Internal Recharge reduced from 24s to 12s, power still recharges in 24s
    • PvP Base Damage (fast) lowered from 155.6974 to 128.62
    • PvP Base Damage (slow) lowered from 274.1628 to 207.6
    • Hidden and crit damage lowered to 50% of base damage for slow version
    • Quick Snipe range lowered from 150ft to 80ft
  • Epic > Mu Mastery > Zapp
    • Internal Recharge reduced from 24s to 12s, power still recharges in 24s
    • PvP Base Damage (fast) lowered from 129.2401 to 102.16
    • PvP Base Damage (slow) lowered from 247.7055 to 181.14
    • Hidden and crit damage lowered to 50% of base damage for slow version
    • Quick Snipe range lowered from 150ft to 80ft

Other PvP Power Changes

  • Scrapper ATOs and Shinobi-Iri
    • Fixed a bug that prevented most Epic pool attacks from having their crit rate increased by these in PvP
  • Temp Powers > Raptor Pack
    • Duration reduced from 2 minutes to 45 seconds
  • Radiation Emission > Enervating Field (All Versions)
    • Increased -Resistance debuff from scale 2 to scale 3 (30% to 40% in the case of Defenders)
  • Empathy > Absorb Pain (All Versions)
    • Self Debuffs have been increased from 20s to 25s
  • Pain Domination > Share Pain (All versions)
    • Self Debuffs have been increased from 15s to 20s
  • Super Reflexes > Elude (All Versions)
    • This power now grants 20% Elusivity(AoE/Melee/Ranged) in PvP
  • Ninjutsu > Kuji-In_Retsu
    • This power now grants 20% Elusivity(AoE/Melee/Ranged) in PvP
  • Pool > Experimentation > Jaunt
    • In PvP, this power now recharges in 30s
  • Poison > Envenom
    • Resist Debuff lowered from 40% to 30% (defender values)
  • Pain Domination > Soothing Aura (All Versions)
    • In PvP, this power grant Heal over Time instead of +Regen, same way it does in PvE
  • Water Blast > Dehydrate (All Versions)
    • In PvP, this power grant Heal over Time instead of +Regen, same way it does in PvE
  • Time Manipulation > Temporal Mending (All Versions)
    • In PvP, this power grant Heal over Time instead of +Regen, same way it does in PvE
  • Time Manipulation > Chrono Shift (All Versions)
    • In PvP, this power grant Heal over Time instead of +Regen, same way it does in PvE
  • Nature Affinity > Regrowth (All Versions)
    • In PvP, this power grant Heal over Time instead of +Regen, same way it does in PvE
  • Experimentation > Jaunt
    • Now has a 20s cooldown in PvP
  • Stalker > Dark Melee > Shadow Maul

    • Hidden PvP Crit chance lowered from 100% to 50%

  • Stalker > Dual Blades >Ablating Strike

    • PvP damage chance against held/sleep foes lowered from 100% to 20%

  • Stalker > Staff Melee > Sky Splitter

    • PvP critical damage against held/sleep foes increased from 1.4905 to 2.9810

 

Please contact me on the Homecoming Discord for a faster response! GM Arcanum#7164


Got time to spare? Want to see Homecoming thrive? Consider volunteering as a Game Master!

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Other PVP changes:

 

Stalker > Melee (All Sets)
Powerhouse made a large pass through every stalker set to reorganize their effects and make sure their crit damage was correct in both, PvP and PvE. This means powers like Greater Psy Blade might do less damage when scoring a critical hit on players, now.
**EDIT**
Stalker> Psy Melee> Greater Psy Blade

Damage has been reduced from scale 3.6666 to 2.75 for both base damage and crit damage.

Insight damage reduced from scale 1.8333 to 1.3434

 

Phase Powers (Phase Shift, Hibernate, etc)
No Phase suppression window for all powers (PvE and PvP) has been reduced from 2 minutes to 90 seconds.

 

Scrapper ranged_pvpdamage modifier has been raised to match melee_pvpdamage modifier.

This means pool attacks such as Arcane Bolt will now do more damage.

 

Radiation Blast | Radioactive Assault > Proton Volley (All versions)
Fixed a bug where these powers were doing 20% less than intended damage in PvP. They are now doing the correct amount.

 

Ice Melee > Assassin's Ice Sword
This power's stealth bonus damage should no longer be resisted in PvP.

 

Concealment >  Stealth
PvP Stealth increased from scale 389ft to 611ft.

 

Fighting > Boxing
This power was missing it's 35% synergy chance for stun in PvP, this has been fixed.

 

Leaping > Super Jump > Double Jump
This power shuts down automatically after 10s of continuous use in PvP.
In PvP, this power will be disabled for 30s after it shuts down.
 

Sorcery> Speed of Sounc > Jaunt

The notes above have it listed as both 20s and 30s cooldown. It should be 30s.

 

Edited by America's Angel
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BUG REPORT > OVERLOAD

 

Just tested the PVP elusivity changes on the tweaked defense armour T9s. Elude and Kujin-Retsu seem to be working fine.

 

Overload is not.

 

I dual-boxed with my friend's beam/poison/psy corruptor versus my Dm/EA scrapper with overload active.

 

I shot my scrapper that had overload up with two attacks:

  • Penetrating Ray - Energy Damage
  • Dominate - Psy Damage

This is what happened...

 

C4qWlQh.jpg

 

As you can see, Penetrating Ray has the right hit chance, but Dominate is way way higher than it should be.

 

I was confused at first - Overload provides Psy elusivity. Why was the hit chance higher? 

 

So I fed the scrapper some purple inspirations and...

 

NUXRow6.jpg

 

Sure enough, that fixed Dominate's tohit chance.

 

Seems like someone at Paragon forgot to make Overload also grant psy defense in PVP.

 

So while Overload has Psy elusivity, it does not have psy defense.

 

Solution: Add Psy Defense to Overload to that it is balanced relative to Elude and Kujin-Retsu.

Edited by America's Angel
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Bugs:

 

In pvp, Speed of Sound alternates between giving 1 copy and 2 copies of its run-speed bonus. This causes my run-speed to fluctuate.

 

Additionally, Toggling Speed of Sound and Infiltration at the same time in pvp causes the two powers to contest over which of them defines my run speed. This added in to the previous bug causes my run speed to fluctuate between multiple different speeds.

 

Patch notes list jaunt has having both 30s and 20s recharge in pvp. I don't know which of these is intended, but the former is true.

 

 

Balance:

 

Testing the root times = to 75% of animation times some more yesterday, the results compared to live are a mixed bag with some powers coming off better than live and some worse. On average I think it evens out but it seems some power-sets do benefit across the board, however I do not yet know if this is problematic.

 

Regarding epic snipes:

 

On Live, Scrapper Slow Snipe damage is in an acceptable range.

On Live, Scrapper Fast Snipe damage is in an acceptable range.

 

On Live, Stalker Slow Snipe damage from hide is too high.

On Live, Stalker Fast Snipe damage from hide is too high.

 

On Live, Stalker Slow Snipe damage when not hidden is in an acceptable range.

On Live, Stalker Fast Snipe damage when not hidden is in an acceptable range.

 

On Brainstorm, Scrapper Slow Snipe damage is too low.

On Brainstorm, Scrapper Fast Snipe damage is too low.

 

On Brainstorm, Stalker Slow Snipe damage from hide is too low.

On Brainstorm, Stalker Fast Snipe damage from hide is in an acceptable range.

 

On Brainstorm, Stalker Slow Snipe damage when not hidden is too low.

On Brainstorm, Stalker Fast Snipe damage when not hidden is too low.

 

As you can see on Live only Stalker snipe damages from hide are considered too high, Scrapper snipe damage is in a good spot on live, and so is Stalker damage on live when unhidden. The reason these brainstorm changes go too far and create more problems than they solve is the internal recharge and base damage changes were not necessary.

 

I propose the following: Keep the internal recharge and base damage of Live values. The change to critical damage (from 100% to 50%) should then be applied to fast snipe as well as slow snipe. This will cause all the criteria I list above to be satisfied.

Edited by Alouu
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On 3/13/2021 at 5:33 AM, GM Arcanum said:

Epic Snipes

After investigating many reported bugs on Epic snipes, we found a large number of implementation inconsistencies introduced during the snipe revamp done a while back. Example: snipes should have always had 50% damage crits, some powers did, mostly on PvE, some didn't. This has resulted in the following changes:

  • Epic > Soul Mastery > Moonbeam
    • Internal Recharge reduced from 24s to 12s, power still recharges in 24s
    • PvP Base Damage (fast) lowered from 129.2401 to 102.16
    • PvP Base Damage (slow) lowered from 247.7055 to 181.14
    • Hidden and crit damage lowered to 50% of base damage for slow version
    • Quick Snipe range lowered from 150ft to 80ft
  • Epic > Mace Mastery > Mace Beam
    • Internal Recharge reduced from 24s to 12s, power still recharges in 24s
    • PvP Base Damage (fast) lowered from 155.6974 to 128.62
    • PvP Base Damage (slow) lowered from 274.1628 to 207.6
    • Hidden and crit damage lowered to 50% of base damage for slow version
    • Quick Snipe range lowered from 150ft to 80ft
  • Epic > Mu Mastery > Zapp
    • Internal Recharge reduced from 24s to 12s, power still recharges in 24s
    • PvP Base Damage (fast) lowered from 129.2401 to 102.16
    • PvP Base Damage (slow) lowered from 247.7055 to 181.14
    • Hidden and crit damage lowered to 50% of base damage for slow version
    • Quick Snipe range lowered from 150ft to 80ft

 

Are these PVP only changes?

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4 hours ago, Taboo said:

Are these PVP only changes?

For the most part, yes. Although the internal recharge of the snipes has also been changed in PVE. (Meaning that they will proc as if the power had a 12s recharge, rather than a 24s recharge.)

 

3.5 PPM procs will go from 90% chance to proc to 77.76% chance to proc.

4.5 PPM procs will still stay at 90% chance to proc.

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The proc rates on char and dominate being lowered raises concern for other sets aside from Ice blast and Beam Rifle in PvP.  Currently Ice blast and Beam Rifle are pretty much the only sets that doesn't rely on epic powers to supplement their damage.  

Edited by KoolVirus
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Like stalker patron snipes do to much damage currently on the live servers however not sure changeing the proc rates is the correct solution to the issue.

I feel Alouu summed it up pretty good don't mess with the proc rate instead scale back the crit damage.

 

Also since some powers get mes protection in PvP maybe we could get breakfrees to work in PvP again? or a modfied breakfree!

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Sessa
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I'm not sure why we need mez protection in pvp? Aside from offensive toggles dropping of that is. Most mez lasts 4 seconds anyway. Sometimes not even that. Then you get 10 seconds of immunity to all mez on top of that?

I guess it is useful on group matches.

Edited by Darkneblade
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  • Lead Game Master
Posted (edited)

Build 2 - March 20th

 

PvP Changes (Focused Feedback Thread

Animation Rooting

  • In PvP only, all powers will only root for 75% of their total cast time

Mez Protection

  • The following powers now provide mez protection in PvP:
    • Storm Summoning > O2 Boost (stun/sleep only, 60s)
    • Sonic Resonance > Clarity (confuse/terrorize/held/immob/stun/sleep, 90s)
    • Empathy > Clear Mind (confuse/terrorize/held/immob/stun/sleep, 90s)
    • Force Fields > Insulation Shield (confuse/terrorize/held/immob/stun/sleep, 90s, main target only)
    • Kinetics > Increase Density (held/immob/stun only, 60s)
    • Pain Domination > Enforced Morale (confuse/terrorize/held/immob/stun/sleep, 90s)
    • Poison > Antidote (confuse/terrorize/held/immob/stun/sleep, 90s)
    • Thermal Radiation > Thaw (confuse/terrorize/held/immob/stun/sleep, 90s)
    • Electrical Affinity > Faraday Cage (held/immob/stun/sleep, while inside the static sphere)
    • Trick Arrow > EMP Field (generated by EMP Arrow, held/immob/stun/sleep, while inside the sphere)
  • Magnitude protection will not stack from multiple casters, but the strongest protection will always be active
  • Protection granted by these powers per AT:
    • Defender 10.81 Mag (requires 4 to 6 successful equal type mez to break through [based on the mez being mag 2 or mag 3])
    • Controller 8.65 Mag (requires 3 to 5 successful equal type mez to break through)
    • Corruptor 8.65 Mag (requires 3 to 5 successful equal type mez to break through)
    • Mastermind 6.49 Mag (requires 3 to 4 successful equal type mez to break through)

Epic Snipes

After investigating many reported bugs on Epic snipes, we found a large number of implementation inconsistencies introduced during the snipe revamp done a while back. For example: snipes should have always had 50% damage crits, some powers did, mostly on PvE, some didn't. This has resulted in the following changes:

  • Epic > Soul Mastery > Moonbeam
    • Internal Recharge reduced from 24s to 12s, power still recharges in 24s
    • PvP Base Damage (fast) lowered from 129.2401 to 102.16
    • PvP Base Damage (slow) lowered from 247.7055 to 181.14
    • Hidden and crit damage lowered to 50% of base damage for slow version
    • Quick Snipe range lowered from 150ft to 80ft
  • Epic > Mace Mastery > Mace Beam
    • Internal Recharge reduced from 24s to 12s, power still recharges in 24s
    • PvP Base Damage (fast) lowered from 155.6974 to 128.62
    • PvP Base Damage (slow) lowered from 274.1628 to 207.6
    • Hidden and crit damage lowered to 50% of base damage for slow version
    • Quick Snipe range lowered from 150ft to 80ft
  • Epic > Mu Mastery > Zapp
    • Internal Recharge reduced from 24s to 12s, power still recharges in 24s
    • PvP Base Damage (fast) lowered from 129.2401 to 102.16
    • PvP Base Damage (slow) lowered from 247.7055 to 181.14
    • Hidden and crit damage lowered to 50% of base damage for slow version
    • Quick Snipe range lowered from 150ft to 80ft

Other PvP Power Changes

  • Scrapper ATOs and Shinobi-Iri
    • Fixed a bug that prevented most Epic pool attacks from having their crit rate increased by these in PvP
  • Temp Powers > Raptor Pack
    • Duration reduced from 2 minutes to 45 seconds
  • Radiation Emission > Enervating Field (All Versions)
    • Increased -Resistance debuff from scale 2 to scale 3 (30% to 40% in the case of Defenders)
  • Empathy > Absorb Pain (All Versions)
    • Self Debuffs have been increased from 20s to 25s
  • Pain Domination > Share Pain (All versions)
    • Self Debuffs have been increased from 15s to 20s
  • Super Reflexes > Elude (All Versions)
    • This power now grants 20% Elusivity(AoE/Melee/Ranged) in PvP
  • Ninjutsu > Kuji-In_Retsu
    • This power now grants 20% Elusivity(AoE/Melee/Ranged) in PvP
  • Pool > Experimentation > Jaunt
    • In PvP, this power now recharges in 30s
  • Poison > Envenom
    • Resist Debuff lowered from 40% to 30% (defender values)
  • Pain Domination > Soothing Aura (All Versions)
    • In PvP, this power grant Heal over Time instead of +Regen, same way it does in PvE
  • Water Blast > Dehydrate (All Versions)
    • In PvP, this power grant Heal over Time instead of +Regen, same way it does in PvE
  • Time Manipulation > Temporal Mending (All Versions)
    • In PvP, this power grant Heal over Time instead of +Regen, same way it does in PvE
  • Time Manipulation > Chrono Shift (All Versions)
    • In PvP, this power grant Heal over Time instead of +Regen, same way it does in PvE
  • Nature Affinity > Regrowth (All Versions)
    • In PvP, this power grant Heal over Time instead of +Regen, same way it does in PvE
  • Stalker > Dark Melee > Shadow Maul

    • Hidden PvP Crit chance lowered from 100% to 50%

  • Stalker > Dual Blades >Ablating Strike

    • PvP damage chance against held/sleep foes lowered from 100% to 20%

  • Stalker > Staff Melee > Sky Splitter

    • PvP critical damage against held/sleep foes increased from 1.4905 to 2.9810

Edited by GM Arcanum

Please contact me on the Homecoming Discord for a faster response! GM Arcanum#7164


Got time to spare? Want to see Homecoming thrive? Consider volunteering as a Game Master!

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Although I'm not a fan of getting smashed to bits by stalker epic snipes, I feel like changing the proc rates and reducing base damage is not the best solution to handling the issue because it hurts scrapper versions too. Adjusting the Crit damage is the better route IMO. Changing the Internal Recharge on some powers will completely make them not viable anymore Example: Scrapper epic snipe vs Stalker... Scrapper Snipe would be hit pretty hard since they can't control Critcal like Stalkers for instance... Changing the Crit damage is best route! ❤️

Edited by Ms Deadly
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COMMENTS ON PSI MELEE NERF(stalker):

First off psi melee is seriously the only viable primary, all of the other primaries (including energy melee) are trash and not worth playing. I could go into each set individually but it really just boils down to two things, awful damage from your strongest single target attack(you have neither burst nor a potential follow up to crit snipe/AS) or animations are too long (target has jaunted into skybox by the time your animation finished(total focus/devastating blow)). The only set that did even close to enough damage fast enough to be viable was psi melee with greater psi blade. And the beauty with this set as well was you got insight from AS (imagine if you got energy focus from AS from energy melee) which meant you could AS+greater psi blade SOMETIMES (remember anyone with a brain is jaunting the second they catch something on buff bar). So you took away what in reality was the only good attack stalkers let alone MELEE IN GENERAL had aside from maybe KO Blow.

 

COMMENTS ON MELEE SNIPE NERF:

Scrappers:

Scrappers are automatically trash being melee(ill describe problems melee have below). They essentially play like slot machines where if you get triple cherry aka crit hold (lock down enemy for about 1 second to get your crit strikes ATO proc)+ATO proc crit strikes+crit high single target attack (rad melee dev blow etc) you win, if not you lose. If you don't get that combination you will never kill anything(by yourself). You add their lack of kill ability on top of their squishiness (if you are running bio armor or fire armor so you can actually try to solo kill) it's very miserable to play scrappers in zones (absolutely impossible in arena or 8s). Nerfing their snipe is really absurd given how bad this class is.

 

Stalkers:

For stalkers the slow snipe was too strong, at most it should only be doing 800-1000 which would include proc damage etc etc. The thing about slow snipe is you are not getting any follow up so it's okay for it to bang a little bit.. Fast snipe was fine though. You're nerfing one of 3 tools offensively a stalker has. Snipe, heavy hitting single target attack (dev blow/greater psi blade etc) and AS being the 3 offense tools stalkers have in pvp. This class is already garbage so, you're nerfing the tool of a class in a game where there is ALREADY no point to playing anything offensive other than dominators/blasters(this is why we limit/ban these classes in 8v8s 😀 ) .

 

 

SUMMING UP MELEE RIGHT NOW:

This is a game where everyone moves the same movespeed (92.5 mph). There are also no effective ways to lockdown through hard CC or slow a target(meaning you have 0 uptime in melee as a melee). You combine that with jaunt/fly being meta and you leave all melee as borderline completely useless outside of taunt botting (how fun/exciting,) or fightclub. I'm not saying that the intent of the dev is to worsen problems for melee and that these changes are the end all be all of changes but it's just so strange to see these changes when AGAIN, there is no point to play anything offense wise right now but dominators or blasters.

Edited by M3z
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The Scrapper Snipe Changes & Future PVP Nerfs to Epic Attacks

@Faultline @Captain Powerhouse @Jimmy

 

Okay, this is weird feedback. Because it's not just about the snipe changes, but the wider scope of what their implementation will entail.

 

This is going to be a long post. It needs to be. The current "one-size-fits-all" approach to balancing epic attacks in is too high level to work effectively, and is harming game balance on a granular level. I will explain why below without hyperbole, with numbers.

 

Also, to be clear, when I speak of "scrapper snipe nerfs", I'm talking about the highlighted parts only, as these highlighted parts are what is drawing concern. (Lowering the base damage and proc rate.):

 

On 3/13/2021 at 1:33 PM, GM Arcanum said:
  • Epic > Soul Mastery > Moonbeam
    • Internal Recharge reduced from 24s to 12s, power still recharges in 24s
    • PvP Base Damage (fast) lowered from 129.2401 to 102.16
    • PvP Base Damage (slow) lowered from 247.7055 to 181.14
    • Hidden and crit damage lowered to 50% of base damage for slow version
    • Quick Snipe range lowered from 150ft to 80ft
  • Epic > Mace Mastery > Mace Beam
    • Internal Recharge reduced from 24s to 12s, power still recharges in 24s
    • PvP Base Damage (fast) lowered from 155.6974 to 128.62
    • PvP Base Damage (slow) lowered from 274.1628 to 207.6
    • Hidden and crit damage lowered to 50% of base damage for slow version
    • Quick Snipe range lowered from 150ft to 80ft
  • Epic > Mu Mastery > Zapp
    • Internal Recharge reduced from 24s to 12s, power still recharges in 24s
    • PvP Base Damage (fast) lowered from 129.2401 to 102.16
    • PvP Base Damage (slow) lowered from 247.7055 to 181.14
    • Hidden and crit damage lowered to 50% of base damage for slow version
    • Quick Snipe range lowered from 150ft to 80ft

 

Now, the concern right now from PVPers is twofold. The first is that the scrapper snipe nerfs are bad. The second is that they set a precedent. Note, it isn't just me saying this, it's a concern I've heard from every PVPer I've seen speak on this, including every tester on the PVP discord, as well as the the PVP Community Rep. Anywhere PVPers have been able to give feedback, this has been the verdict.

 

PVPers are worried that these nerfs are the "first out of the gate" for epic attacks, and that more will follow. There is concern that nerfing the snipes will lead to powers like char, fossilize, spirit shark jaws, etc all getting nerfed. Before the Homecoming dev team embark on this road, I wanted to spend some time checking the numbers, to see the impact this would have on PVP balance in practice. (Not just in theory.) I'll do this alongside an analysis of the scrapper snipe nerf, so we can answer these two following questions at the same time:

 

Is the scrapper snipe nerf good or bad for PVP balance?
Are future epic power nerfs good or bad for PVP balance?

 

Below, I've calculated the likely nerfs to the most popular melee pvp epic powers. I did this by following the scrapper snipe nerf. Specifically:

  1. Changing the internal recharge of each power to match the primary set power it was based on. (Char becomes 8s, Gloom becomes 8s, etc).
  2. Reducing the base damage relative to the new recharge.

 

Note, in some original powers with no primary equivalent, such as Laser Beam eyes and Spirit Shark Jaws, I had to guess the nerf numbers. Laser Beam Eyes I put at 4s with a 2s internal recharge. (Based on Powerhouse's past comments.) Spirit Shark Jaws I put at 8s internal recharge (to match Char).

 

Here's the breakdown:

 

Scrapper Moonbeam on Live = 707.23 damage (446.48 DPA)
Scrapper Moonbeam 12s internal recharge & reduced damage = 595.83 damage (376.15 DPA)

Scrapper Zzap on Live = 642.66 damage (405.72 DPA)
Scrapper Zzap 12s internal recharge & reduced damage  = 540.04 damage (340.93 DPA)

Scrapper Char on Live = 859.69 damage (651.28 DPA)
Scrapper Char 8s internal recharge & reduced damage  = 568.46 damage (430.65 DPA)

Scrapper SSJ on live = 879.51 damage (416.43 DPA)
Scrapper SSJ 8s internal recharge & reduced damage  = 614.48 damage (290.95 DPA)

Scrapper Laser Beam Eyes on Live = 490.59 damage (265.47 DPA) & ~9% -res
Scrapper Laser Beam Eyes 4s external/2s internal recharge = 248.55 damage (134.49 DPA)  & ~3% -res  ***

Brute Gloom on Live = 401.73 damage (304.34 DPA)
Brute Gloom 8s internal recharge & reduced damage  = 320.34 damage (242.68 DPA)

Brute Fossilize on Live = 769.99 damage (343.13 DPA)
Brute Fossilize 8s internal recharge & reduced damage  = 551.47 damage (245.75 DPA)

 

Here's the DPA change vs live:

 

Gloom = -61.66 DPA
Zzap = -64.71 DPA
Moonbeam = -70.33 DPA
Fossilize = -97.38 DPA
SSJ = -125.49 DPA
Laser Beam Eyes = -130.98 DPS (and a reduction of -res per second from Achilles Proc from ~9% to ~3%)
Char = -220.62 DPA


As you can see. Broad-strokes nerfs to all epics sets do not equally nerf the epic powers within those sets. This harms game balance.

 

"Stop writing so much! Just tell me what to increase the scrapper meleepvp damage scalar by!"

 

Hmm. Should we say +70.33 DPA to make up for Moonbeam being nerfed? Or should we say +130.98 DPA to make up for Laser Beam Eyes being nerfed? Which number should we pick? Even the snipes have been nerfed differently! What about the -res from Laser Beam Eyes - how does that factor in? How do we account for primaries having/not having access to -res procs? What about current primaries that don't need the epics, why are we buffing them by increasing the pvpmelee damage scalar?

 

These are the questions this "simple solution" raises. We need to answer them or we're not doing due diligence.

 

But yeah, as you can see, the reason behind this epic nerf is too high level/vague/broad strokes. And the attempt to fix this nerf by buffing primary damage scalars is also too high level/vague/broad strokes. What is needed instead is a detailed, GRANULAR, analysis of how the various epic powers balance in PVP RELATIVE TO EACH OTHER, and then tweaking those powers on a case-by-case basis. This is a slow and attentive process. A one-size-fits-all approach to balance might be quick, but it DOES NOT WORK. (In fact, not only does it not work, it actively harms game balance!)

 

"No way am I balancing the scrapper snipes relative to other scrapper epic powers! I don't want Scrapper snipes doing more damage than blaster snipes!"

 

Blaster Moonbeam on live does 586.47  damage on live
Scrapper Moonbeam on live does 707.23 damage on live

 

...yet a Blaster still does more damage than a Scrapper with Moonbeam. Both on live AND beta.

 

"What?! You're lying! The number for Scrapper is higher!"

 

I am not lying. The blaster can use their Moonbeam once every 12s (50 times per match). The Scrapper can use it once every 24s (25 times per match). Because of this, the individual power's DPS is a better barometer for how these two powers perform relative to each other in PVP. So let's take a look...

 

The DPS for Blaster Moonbeam on live is 48.87 DPS
The DPS for Scrapper Moonbeam on live is 29.47 DPS (59.89% of blaster damage)

 

As you can see, scrapper snipes aren't "doing more damage than blaster" snipes in a PVP environment. So this change achieves absolutely nothing from an AT-to-AT PVP balance perspective. All it does is make Moonbeam worse for scrappers RELATIVE TO THE OTHER SCRAPPER EPIC ATTACKS.

 

The real question is...is this a bad thing? Almost 100% of the feedback from PVPers has been against this change to scrapper snipes. (I think one person said they didn't care. Nobody, to my knowledge, has supported this.) So, if PVPers think this change is bad,  and if no-one on the dev team PVPs, I'd be inclined to just side with the PVPers. But let's check and see if they're right, anyway. As we do this, let's remember our goal - we want all the epic attacks to provide similar DPS relative to their external recharge time, taking into account any additional utility they offer that would offset a difference in DPS. Let's also remember our methodology - looking at numbers in depth.

 

Let's compare the two current Scrapper epic attack frontrunners:

 

Scrapper Moonbeam on Live = 707.23 damage (446.48 DPA)
Scrapper Laser Beam Eyes on Live = 490.59 damage (265.47 DPA) & ~9% -res

 

HUUGE difference in DPS. But the -res that the achilles proc does, plus the short recharge time of LBE vs Moonbeam, means that they are both viable options.

Here's the attack chain DPS numbers for my Dark Melee/Energy Aura Scrapper (versus an enemy with 50% res):

 

On live:
Attack chain with Laser Beam Eyes = 190.34 DPS
Attack chain with Moonbeam = 184.45 DPS

On Brainstorm:
Attack chain with Laser Beam Eyes = 190.34 DPS
Attack chain with nerfed Moonbeam = 180.83 DPS

 

As you can see, Moonbeam and Laser Beam Eyes are closer together on live than Brainstorm. Therefore this nerf upsets their balance!

 

"Fine then, I'll just nerf Laser Beam Eyes."

 

Let me stop you there. That idea looks like this:

 

Attack chain with nerfed Laser Beam Eyes= 173.84 DPS
Attack chain with nerfed Moonbeam = 180.83 DPS

 

Better than Brainstorm, for sure. But worse than live! This change would lead to every scrapper taking nerfed moonbeam over LBE. This is bad for tworeasons. The first is build homogenization. (Literally the opposite of what game balance should strive for - you want more powers viable, not fewer.) The second is that melee sets that have access to the -res in achilles in their primaries will have a greater advantage over those that do not. (As their only source of it - LBE, is no longer optimal.)


I'll say it again: The purpose of game balance is to make as many powers viable in PVP as possible, not fewer.

 

"Well I guess I could just nerf Laser Beam Eyes and the other epic attacks

 less severely and increase the scrapper melee damage scalar to offset the epic decrease in damage."

 

If you do this. We'll just end up worse than we are on live. Sure, all the epics will be balanced relative to each other, but they will be much worse relative to the primary powers. This will push people into taking primary sets that use the achilles proc well (Claws, Street Justice, Broadsword, Katana, etc), and just running focused accuracy or moonbeam. So, again, build homogenization. In attempting to balance the game, you will have unbalanced it.

As I explained to @Piecemeal on the testing discord:
 

Stronger epics = differences in primary viability decreases
Weaker epics = differences in primary viability increases

So if you make epics weaker, you need to buff underperforming primaries to restore balance.

 

What we have right now on live, options-wise, is good. And it's varied. Do you take the snipes? Do you take laser beam eyes? Do you take focused accuracy? Do you try some weird stuff with Char and Fire blast? We have a wealth of options. And numbers-wise they are all viable. There are some epics that are poor, and it is they that we should be looking at buffing. As I've said time and time again, in PVP you balance around the top performing sets/powers. (Because everyone takes them...so you have to!) If you nerf stuff down in PVP, you're changing the game. If you buff stuff up, the game remains the same, but there are more options. (The goal of game balance!)

 

The one thing you need to take away from this novella I'm writing is that in PVP you can only nerf something if it is objectively overperforming by a large margin. If it is already balanced relative to other powers of a similar type, you're not nerfing a power. You're deleting it.


Anyway, let's wrap this up. To conclude:

 

The scrapper snipe nerf numerically damages game balance between the scrapper epics.
Blasters do more damage than Scrappers with their snipes on both Live and Brainstorm.

 

...therefore, the nerf to scrapper snipe base damage and internal recharge rate achieves NONE OF THE GOALS YOU SET OUT TO ACHIEVE, actively harms PVP balance, and it 100% needs to be rolled back.

 

Now, as we look to the future, and consider Dominate, Fossilize, Spirit Shark Jaws, Char, Gloom, and other popular epic powers. It's important we  look at the process I went through, above. It's important we do that side-by-side, in-depth, unrushed, granular analysis FOR EVERY SINGLE POWER before nerfing them in PVP. Because THAT is the level of attention that is required when it comes to balancing powers in a live PVP environment.

 

And if you don't have the time to do this with every power? Ask PVPers to. You have a small army of the best PVPers in the game on the Golden Testers Discord. Use them.

 They know the game better than anyone, because they've been exploiting it to beat each other for almost two decades. They look at powers this in depth all the time. It's nothing to them.

 

Listen to PVPers. Listen to the numbers.

 

Thanks for reading.

Edited by America's Angel
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Another nerf on beta that isn't listed in the dev post:

 

Stalker > Psy Melee > Greater Psy Blade

Base Damage lowered from 206.84 to 155.13

Critical Damage lowered from 206.84 to 155.13

Insight damage reduced from 103.42 to 75.67

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59 minutes ago, America's Angel said:

Another nerf on beta that isn't listed in the dev post:

 

Stalker > Psy Melee > Greater Psy Blade

Base Damage lowered from 206.84 to 155.13

Critical Damage lowered from 206.84 to 155.13

Insight damage reduced from 103.42 to 75.67

There are a lot of changes done via a Stalker pass that didn't get detailed patch notes on. Actually...while typing this out I see that the patch notes don't even include a mention of the Stalker pass. I believe MacSkull has been tracking the changes, perhaps he could provide details to all the Stalker tweaks that way they could make it into the Patch Notes before Live. As the patch notes are shown now, it is not sufficient. There should at least be a mention of a Stalker clean-up pass, but ideally there should be details on everything that got changed.

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There were some very minor PvE damage scale tweaks which I'd chalk up to rounding changes and would result in a difference of only a few points of damage at level 50, so I did not include those in my list of changes when I went through the CoD files last month. Despite the initial patch note saying they'd done a PvE and PvP pass I was unable to find any significant PvE changes in either damage scale or crit rate except for Guarded Spin, which had a damage scale change of 0.2317 to 0.2417 for each DoT tick and 1.39 to 1.2085 for its crit. Here is what I found for PvP-specific changes though:

 

Quote

General observations

  • AS (fast) now uses melee_pvpdamage for base and crit portions but damage scale was adjusted to compensate and end result is the same (I think?)
  • AS (slow) now uses melee_pvpdamage for crit portion but damage scale was adjusted to compensate and end result is the same
  • Several powers have had slight changes in rounding to damage scales which result in insignificant changes to their damage, these powers are not included in this list
  • Some narrow cone powers (Headsplitter and Golden Dragonfly are the two obvious offenders here) use single-target damage scales but only have a 50% chance to crit from hide, this should be 100% - honestly, any power that requires a target should have a 100% chance to crit from hide.
  • This is not documented in any patch notes, but Stalker/Scrapper epic snipes were changed to use ranged_pvpdamage instead of melee_pvpdamage and Stalker/Scrapper ranged_pvpdamage was bumped up to equal melee_pvpdamage. This results in no change in damage to the epic snipes but does result in a roughly 2.5x increase in the damage dealt by ranged pool powers like Project Will, Toxic Dart, and Arcane Bolt.
  • This list does not include any changes made to epic/patron pools because I simply didn't look at those, though some quick investigation shows some of those powers did get tweaks too.

Broadsword

  • Slice - scale 1.4133 to 1.596, held/slept crit chance changed from 5% to 20%

Claws

  • Eviscerate - added missing 20% held/slept crit chance

Fiery Melee

  • Scorch - added missing crits
  • Fire Sword - added missing crits
  • Cremate - added missing crits
  • Breath of Fire - Padded missing crits
  • Fire Sword Circle - added missing crits, scale 0.8768 to 0.6138
  • Greater Fire Sword - added missing crits

Ice Melee

  • Assassin's Ice Sword (slow) - crit damage was not flagged as unresisted, this has been fixed
  • Frost - added missing 20% held/slept crit chance, scale 0.4002 to 0.2875 per tick for DoT (scale 2.4004 to 1.7251 crit)
  • Frozen Aura - added missing 20% held/slept crit chance, scale 1.526 to 1.068

Martial Arts

  • Cobra Strike - added PvP-specific entry for base damage, added missing hidden crit, scale 1.9321 to 1.969

Ninja Blade

  • Flashing Steel - held/slept crit chance changed from 5% to 20%
  • Golden Dragonfly - added missing 20% stunned/slept crit chance

Psionic Melee

  • Mental Strike - added PvP-specific entry for Insight damage
  • Psi Blade - added PvP-specific entry for Insight damage
  • Telekinetic Blow - added PvP-specific entry for Insight damage, scale 2.3853 to 1.789
  • Greater Psi Blade - scale 3.6666 to 2.75, insight scale 1.8333 to 1.3414
  • Mass Levitate - added PvP-specific entry for Insight damage, scale 1.5733 to 1.18

Radiation Melee

  • Concentrated Strike - crit scale 1.468 to 1.101
  • Radioactive Smash - crit scale 2.4645 to 1.73
  • Proton Sweep - base ticks scale 0.5489 to 0.3847, crit scale 2.1958 to 1.5389, held/slept crit chance changed from 5% to 20%
  • Radiation Siphon - crit scale 3.1479 to 2.361
  • Devastating Blow - crit scale 3.9319 to 2.949
  • Atom Smasher - scale 1.7765 to 1.3324, held/slept crit chance changed from 5% to 20%

Savage Melee

  • Rending Flurry - hidden crit chance changed from 100% to 50%

Spines - all powers are missing the toxic DoT portion in PvP

  • Spine Burst - held/slept crit chance changed from 6% to 20%
  • Ripper - held/slept crit chance changed from 10% to 20%
  • Throw Spines - held/slept crit chance changed from 10% to 20%

Staff Fighting

  • Guarded Spin - scale 0.2458 to 0.2949 for each DoT tick, crit scale 2.0 to 1.4746
  • Eye of the Storm - scale 0.2467 to 0.1919 for each DoT tick, crit scale 1.4804 to 1.1516
  • Sky Splitter - held/slept crit damage scale 1.4905 to 2.9809

Street Justice

  • Sweeping Cross - held/slept crit chance changed from 5% to 20%

 

Edited by macskull
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@macskull/@Not Mac

Proc information and chance calculator spreadsheet (last updated 25JUL20)

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I haven't had the chance to post here, but I've gone over it extensively elsewhere. The MM endurance and recharge buffs need to be significantly lessened in PvP. It'll be impossible to properly balance them with this new increase seeded in. It's much better to move forward knowing endurance and recharge can be a real weakness for them, and maybe lessen these values by the slightest amounts. I don't know that they should be buffed at all in PvP, however.

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1 hour ago, Monos King said:

I haven't had the chance to post here, but I've gone over it extensively elsewhere. The MM endurance and recharge buffs need to be significantly lessened in PvP. It'll be impossible to properly balance them with this new increase seeded in. It's much better to move forward knowing endurance and recharge can be a real weakness for them, and maybe lessen these values by the slightest amounts. I don't know that they should be buffed at all in PvP, however.

If you're in a position where you're summoning while being attacked, generally you're dead anyways. In zones if your respawning it doesn't really matter what the cooldown is on the pets, it can be whatever since you're going to wait at spawn to summon anyways. In large team arena the lower CD means you don't get spawn camp farmed because you just summoned t2/t3 pets. The endurance discount doesn't matter one way or the other, with a proper build(using all of the endurance procs) and with force of nature (+end accolade) for free, you should never run out of end on any character really. Point is, the buff doesn't mean much outside of large team arena which the buff is fine for that.

 

As far as buffs in pvp absolutely MMs need to be buffed in pvp. There are like 3 good MM players left in this game (me, Barrier, Public Enemy) and none of us play MM anymore because it's such a gigantic detriment to a team in all scenarios. In zones, MMs have been unplayable since the addition of i13 and it will likely continue to be that way unless the mez system gets overhauled or pets inherit movement speed from player. You could argue that camping with MM with the RV pet summon is viable but I disagree, if your build relies on you not moving/doing anything and relying on a pet from a specific pvp zone then your AT is trash(what about the rest of us who dont want to use TP foe?). On top of that, the tactic doesn't work let alone against people who know what they're doing. In 8v8 arena MMs are unplayable because of jaunt/raptor pack with the class being tied so closely to the ground to stay in BG mode you are unable to contribute much of anything without overextending away from pets. The problem worsens the larger the map is. Simple fix is more damage/range to the pets and pets inheriting player movement (meaning when player jumps pet jumps) and movespeed. MMs went from being okay/mediocre to trash with jaunt/raptor pack meta.

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1 hour ago, M3z said:

If you're in a position where you're summoning while being attacked, generally you're dead anyways. In zones if your respawning it doesn't really matter what the cooldown is on the pets, it can be whatever since you're going to wait at spawn to summon anyways. In large team arena the lower CD means you don't get spawn camp farmed because you just summoned t2/t3 pets. The endurance discount doesn't matter one way or the other, with a proper build(using all of the endurance procs) and with force of nature (+end accolade) for free, you should never run out of end on any character really. Point is, the buff doesn't mean much outside of large team arena which the buff is fine for that.

This is all correct. MMs do need to be buffed, simply not like this. It's a complex matter trying to make a pure pet AT viable in large teams. This buff is very OP in small scale instances to a small combination of MMs whose only weakness was being made to resummon, but useless to MMs who were going to be killed if they needed to respawn to begin with, something I noted on discord.

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1 hour ago, Monos King said:

This is all correct. MMs do need to be buffed, simply not like this. It's a complex matter trying to make a pure pet AT viable in large teams. This buff is very OP in small scale instances to a small combination of MMs whose only weakness was being made to resummon, but useless to MMs who were going to be killed if they needed to respawn to begin with, something I noted on discord.

If we are worried about secondaries with aura heals in small teams (less than 6v6), make the heal effect the user at full effectiveness and the pets at half or 33% effectiveness from AOE heals from the user. I think pets should still be healed fully from outside sources since it requires another player to do so. But this should stop healers from just tanking everything while summoning pets non stop. They will still have some heals but should die to consistent pressure, leaving it up to rest of the healer MMs team to peel while the MM recovers.

 

I think small teams pvp is bunk right now given the mez system and secondary effects being almost completely meaningless, so I'm not really all about making changes for small teams arena in its current state. But I do agree that the AOE heals are way too strong in those scenarios and I think MM would be fine if they got tuned. That said I wish it WERE like pre i13 pvp because small teams used to be one of the funnest things to do in this game.

Edited by M3z
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  • GM Arcanum changed the title to Focused Feedback: PvP Changes (Release Candidate 1)

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