Focused Feedback: Travel Power Updates (Build 3)

[InvaderStych]

26 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

I am not aware that travel suppression was added just for pvp.

 

I could be mistaken about the "just for," but I do remember being put off pvp when it happened.  I don't remember there being a PVE rational, but I vaguely remember that SS/SJ jousting (providing some sort of perceived or actual advantage) was one of the original stated reasons.

 

Either way, I do wonder why it is still around in one space but not the other.

Edited April 1, 2021 by InvaderStych

[Wavicle]

I was also not aware it was removed from pvp, but that’s not surprising since I don’t pvp.

[ForeverLaxx]

29 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

I am not aware that travel suppression was added just for pvp.

It's an oft-repeated, and incorrect, declaration people make. The "true" travel powers were never meant to be active all the time in combat and they had been using -Accuracy while active in order to reflect that. It wasn't enough to deter their use and certainly didn't stop the extreme speed Jousting issue so Suppression was introduced. Yes, you can still Joust, but at slower speeds that still put you in relative danger of retaliation unless you have corners to duck behind. Before suppression, you could fire an attack and be well outside counterattack range without even really trying.

[InvaderStych]

43 minutes ago, ForeverLaxx said:

It's an oft-repeated, and incorrect, declaration people make. The "true" travel powers were never meant to be active all the time in combat and they had been using -Accuracy while active in order to reflect that. It wasn't enough to deter their use and certainly didn't stop the extreme speed Jousting issue so Suppression was introduced.

 

Thank you for this clarification, but what was the rational for it's implementation in PvE?

[Wavicle]

29 minutes ago, InvaderStych said:

 

Thank you for this clarification, but what was the rational for it's implementation in PvE?

That was it.

[ForeverLaxx]

33 minutes ago, InvaderStych said:

 

Thank you for this clarification, but what was the rational for it's implementation in PvE?

Trying to be facetious doesn't make you cute. That was the PvE implementation. You don't have to like it or agree with it (and many who love to blame PvP for everything typically continue to do so), but that's the reason for the adjustment.

[InvaderStych]

59 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

That was it.

 

Fair enough. I hadn't considered connecting the two, all I remembered was the jousting issue.

 

Thanks for answering plainly.

 

[Blackbird71]

2 hours ago, Wavicle said:

I am not aware that travel suppression was added just for pvp.

It might be worth some research to find out.  Assuming InvaderStych is correct, it does raise an interesting argument.

After a preliminary search, the only thing I can find is that travel power suppression was implemented as a result of players' suggestions:  https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/List_of_Player_Suggested_Features

 

 

Quote

 

Game Mechanics

• Enhancement Diversification
• Travel power suppression

 

 

 

[Jacke]

5 hours ago, Wavicle said:

I am not aware that travel suppression was added just for pvp.

 

I'm with @Wavicle here.   I think Travel Suppression was added to prevent radical kiting jousting drive-by attacks in both PvE and PvP.

Edited April 1, 2021 by Jacke

[Luminara]

Suppression was added some time before Issue 5, but not before Issue 4, as far as I've been able to determine (i'm almost 50, so my memory of what was in Issues and patches fifteen years ago is... spotty).  Prior to I4, travel powers had a 50% ToHit debuff (SS and SJ had that added in... I2 or I3, to " bring them in line with Fly").  TopDoc's movement guide, dated June 20, 2005, refers to travel suppression as "new".  I'm not going to dig through the Wayback Machine to locate the threads that travel suppression spawned when it was added in order to nail down an exact date, but I do recall that many players conflated that addition with the implementation of PvP specifically because they were both added around the same time.

 

As @Jacke and @Wavicle have noted, though, the developer explanation at the time was to clamp down on players using travel powers to zip in and out of combat range, with no reference to PvP as a motivator.  The HC team disabled it in PvP zones, not Paragon, so there's no reason to believe Paragon was reconsidering their stance on it.  And the HC team likely left it enabled in PvE for the same reason many things exist in PvE, because critters are morons who need all the help they can get.

 

Suppression doesn't affect base movement, only specific powers, like pool travel powers, Ninja Run and the various clones, etc.  If you want to get around travel suppression, pick up +Movement Speed bonuses and use Hover, Combat Jumping and/or Sprint, and slot up your Fitness powers.  As I previously indicated, Hurdle + CJ + Movement bonuses + Agility Radial can push you up well past the original Fly speed cap.  You can also make Hover as fast as the original Fly speed cap with numerous builds and creative slotting (Accelerate Metabolism is godly for this, for instance).  There are also two +7.5% Run Speed IOs, one unique (Synapse's Shock), and one which can be slotted five times (Gift of the Ancients), so you can build up a pretty decent amount of running speed using the same IO slotting methodology you'd use for jumping or Hovering.  Hover will cap at the old flight speed cap, jumping and running will be above 60 mph if you're "doin' it right", so you'll be more than fast enough for any combat situation.

[Zepp]

20 hours ago, Wavicle said:

They’re not comparable. EvM doesn’t actually let you fly at all. It improves the speed of your other flight powers.

Infiltration doesn't let you run or jump, it improves the speed of your other run/jump powers.

[Bopper]

16 minutes ago, Zepp said:

Infiltration doesn't let you run or jump, it improves the speed of your other run/jump powers.

Neither is technically correct. EvMa does not grant you fly, but when used while flying with a fly power that grants the FlightActive tag (Hover, Fly, your Group Fly, kheldian versions), it will provide an increase to your fly speed. So it doesn't make your fly powers faster (that would be a strength to fly speed power), it simply makes you fly faster.

 

As for Infiltration, it does not increase the speed of other run/jump powers (again, a strength to run/jump would do that), it simply increases your run and jump speed.

[FaradayGauss]

I'm curious if all travel power options will eventually receive pop-up secondary powers? I was reading on Discord about it. Because personally, I'm for it. I don't necessarily use them all the time but they are nice to have, especially for flavor or shoring up various weaknesses in mobility. Also, any ideas what that would look like for Teleportation, for example? End redux clickie with a cooldown? It's already way more fluid and easy-to-use with this patch, so I'm pretty happy with it as-is.

Edited April 2, 2021 by FaradayGauss

[Blackbird71]

16 hours ago, FaradayGauss said:

I'm curious if all travel power options will eventually receive pop-up secondary powers? I was reading on Discord about it. Because personally, I'm for it. I don't necessarily use them all the time but they are nice to have, especially for flavor or shoring up various weaknesses in mobility. Also, any ideas what that would look like for Teleportation, for example? End redux clickie with a cooldown? It's already way more fluid and easy-to-use with this patch, so I'm pretty happy with it as-is.

 

Personally I hope not; I'd rather they get rid of the pop-up secondaries in favor of some of the other suggestions players have made.  The pop-up power tray has always felt like a kludgy sort of fix; just something tacked on rather inelegantly, and one more thing to have to fix or workaround with macros and keybinds after disabling the annoying tray.

[Wavicle]

17 hours ago, FaradayGauss said:

I'm curious if all travel power options will eventually receive pop-up secondary powers? I was reading on Discord about it. Because personally, I'm for it. I don't necessarily use them all the time but they are nice to have, especially for flavor or shoring up various weaknesses in mobility. Also, any ideas what that would look like for Teleportation, for example? End redux clickie with a cooldown? It's already way more fluid and easy-to-use with this patch, so I'm pretty happy with it as-is.

They’ve indicated that the additional powers are only for those travel abilities that need to be distinguished from each other: fly/mystic flight, super speed/speed of sound, super jump/mighty leap. Teleport and Infiltration are already distinct. If (when, I hope) they eventually implement Freerunning and Jetpack they will have something to distinguish them from Infiltration and Fly/Mystic Flight.

[SwitchFade]

23 hours ago, Luminara said:

Suppression was added some time before Issue 5, but not before Issue 4, as far as I've been able to determine (i'm almost 50, so my memory of what was in Issues and patches fifteen years ago is... spotty).  Prior to I4, travel powers had a 50% ToHit debuff (SS and SJ had that added in... I2 or I3, to " bring them in line with Fly").  TopDoc's movement guide, dated June 20, 2005, refers to travel suppression as "new".  I'm not going to dig through the Wayback Machine to locate the threads that travel suppression spawned when it was added in order to nail down an exact date, but I do recall that many players conflated that addition with the implementation of PvP specifically because they were both added around the same time.

 

As @Jacke and @Wavicle have noted, though, the developer explanation at the time was to clamp down on players using travel powers to zip in and out of combat range, with no reference to PvP as a motivator.  The HC team disabled it in PvP zones, not Paragon, so there's no reason to believe Paragon was reconsidering their stance on it.  And the HC team likely left it enabled in PvE for the same reason many things exist in PvE, because critters are morons who need all the help they can get.

 

Suppression doesn't affect base movement, only specific powers, like pool travel powers, Ninja Run and the various clones, etc.  If you want to get around travel suppression, pick up +Movement Speed bonuses and use Hover, Combat Jumping and/or Sprint, and slot up your Fitness powers.  As I previously indicated, Hurdle + CJ + Movement bonuses + Agility Radial can push you up well past the original Fly speed cap.  You can also make Hover as fast as the original Fly speed cap with numerous builds and creative slotting (Accelerate Metabolism is godly for this, for instance).  There are also two +7.5% Run Speed IOs, one unique (Synapse's Shock), and one which can be slotted five times (Gift of the Ancients), so you can build up a pretty decent amount of running speed using the same IO slotting methodology you'd use for jumping or Hovering.  Hover will cap at the old flight speed cap, jumping and running will be above 60 mph if you're "doin' it right", so you'll be more than fast enough for any combat situation.

Mid issue 4, is correct. It went like this,

 

In PVE, huge -acc applied to travel powers. There was never a clear answer why, there were short quips about jousting, where a player could move so quickly by a MOB that it prevented retaliation to an alpha strike. When pressed with clear explanations that jousting in PVE may happen, it was such a horribly inefficient or tactically sound way to defeat MOBs that it was really a non-issue.

 

PVP was in development early. PVP landed in issue 4. Blasters straight ganked everyone by superspeeding while firing.

 

Travel powers were suppressed on any power that affected a MOB/player. Things live invinc would cause suppression. It was comical. Suppression was tweaked. The feedback was horrendously negative in PVE terms, continuing to demonstrate that kiting was a non-issue, and a bad excuse for suppression.

 

It was possible to continue to move quickly by 6 slotting things like hover.

 

The boards filled with continual feedback about how it was a bad PVE mechanic. This was in direct contradiction with Mr. J.E.'s "The Vision™"

 

Issue 5 brought ED. No little blue pill 🔵. 

 

Ed and suppression reigned supreme.

 

The Vision "left" for "greener pastures" which resulted in said greener pastures becoming a largely defunct beta released clone; then left that too.

 

Meanwhile, sad 🐼 and the debate on exactly what was the catalyst for suppression continues, but rest assured, it was never sufficiently answered clearly, because The Vision was not great at that particular skill, at that time.

 

I would bet the family pig it was a combination of pvp and pve (primarily pvp, because the initial vision was to make them homogeneous mechanically), but only because it was The Vision's personal belief that it was necessary, as no actual evidence supported it.

Edited April 2, 2021 by SwitchFade

[Steampunkette]

Suppression was added for a set of reasons.

 

1) The aforementioned jousting. It's still possible to "Joust" in PvE, notably by jumping in a given direction, firing a power while in the air, and landing some distance away from your opponent before the rooting of the attack animation ends. But it's far less ridiculous than it -was-.

 

2) To make it harder to pass through Hazard Zones without interacting with mobs. Not "Impossible", obviously, as Fly and Teleport show, and as any speedster worth their salt can zip around most NPC groups without getting caught. But if you got tagged suppression would kick in and you'd have to fight. Remember, this was back before a bunch of "Mission Teleporter" type powers existed and you used to see dozens of players moving through the Hollows to go fight Atta because Hollows Teams were the "fast-leveling" meta.

 

3) In PREPARATION for larger scale PvP than the Arena. With CoV on the horizon, the Devs knew they'd be adding PvP Zones for hero and villain joint use. They also knew how incredibly unsatisfying it would be to be trying to fight someone and then have them zip off your screen... -especially- if you also met the criteria for the fourth reason.

 

4) Player Computer Disparity. City of Heroes had it's bar for entry as -low- as possible, to try and get as many potential players as possible (Which why it wasn't as pretty as other games released around the same time for solo players or small groups of people playing together). Travel Powers could result in such players winding up rubber banding or otherwise dealing with huge gouts of lag in combats as their slow computer tried to keep up with everything happening and the player's location plus the particle effects. Travel Suppressions reduced the distance a character could travel, which reduced the rubberbanding issues.

 

Number 4 on the list is arguably the most important reason to apply travel suppression, back then. But if it were openly acknowledged it would likely result in bullying of people without access to more powerful computers and flame wars about how people shouldn't play if they can't afford X, Y, or Z computer upgrades.

[Zepp]

Based on testing by @Glacier Peak,

Power/Course	Peregrine Island (2.72 miles)	Nerva Archipelago (1.96 miles)	Grandville (0.83 miles)
Super Speed	1 minute, 22 seconds	59 seconds	1 minute, 35 seconds
Super Jump	1 minute, 36 seconds	1 minute, 10 seconds	58 seconds
Fly	1 minute, 50 seconds	1 minute, 20 seconds	34 seconds
Fly w/Afterburner	1 minute, 41 seconds	1 minute, 15 seconds	28 seconds

 

Super Speed significantly overperforms in most situations.

 

Current Live caps are
Super Speed 92.5

Super Jump 78 (84.3% & requires parabolic movement)

Flight 58.64 (63.4%) with Afterburner 87.95 (95%)

 

Page 3 caps are

Super Speed 120.24

Super Jump 110.39 (91.8% & requires parabolic movement)

Flight 87.95 (73.1%) with Afterburner 102.27 (85.1% 1/3 of the time - effectively 92.72 average cap, 77.1%)

 

While this does decrease disparities, especially for Super Jump and AB-less Fly, it increases the disparity between people who had Afterburner before (95% of Super Speed). As testing shows, there are rare instances where Flight is advantageous, but those are somewhat rare.

 

I would like to see Super Jump increased to 114.23 (95%) and Flight increased to 102.20 (85%) with Afterburner 108.22 (90% 1/2 the time - functionally 87.5%). I would also like to see a reduction in the TP animation time by about 50%.

(Alternatively, reduce Super Speed to 100, Super Jump to 95, and Afterburner to 99 (1/3 of the time).)

 

Another issue is that Evasive Maneuvers now gives Flight an unprecedented amount of non-suppressed movement, whereas ground-based toons do not have an equivalent ability.

I would also like to see combat suppression removed from Infiltration and the base speed of Hover and Evasive Maneuvers increased by 10-20%

 

This maintains the speed rankings in a more reasonable delineation. It also improves combat mobility without breaking the game.

Edited to better elicit my thought process.

Edited April 4, 2021 by Zepp

[Blaze Moon]

The invisibility option for Stealth on the beta server is not as transparent as the Invisibility power itself currently is on the live server.

 

For reference, see below. The top is from beta while the bottom is from the live server.

Edited April 4, 2021 by Blaze Moon

[Blackbird71]

Well, at least the belt looks about the same...

[Glacier Peak]

On 4/3/2021 at 8:04 AM, Zepp said:

Based on testing by @Glacier Peak,

Power/Course	Peregrine Island (2.72 miles)	Nerva Archipelago (1.96 miles)	Grandville (0.83 miles)
Super Speed	1 minute, 22 seconds	59 seconds	1 minute, 35 seconds
Super Jump	1 minute, 36 seconds	1 minute, 10 seconds	58 seconds
Fly	1 minute, 50 seconds	1 minute, 20 seconds	34 seconds
Fly w/Afterburner	1 minute, 41 seconds	1 minute, 15 seconds	28 seconds

 

Super Speed significantly overperforms in most situations.

 

Current Live caps are
Super Speed 92.5

Super Jump 78 (84.3% & requires parabolic movement)

Flight 58.64 (63.4%) with Afterburner 87.95 (95%)

 

Page 3 caps are

Super Speed 120.24

Super Jump 110.39 (91.8% & requires parabolic movement)

Flight 87.95 (73.1%) with Afterburner 102.27 (85.1% 1/3 of the time - effectively 92.72 average cap, 77.1%)

 

While this does decrease disparities, especially for Super Jump and AB-less Fly, it increases the disparity between people who had Afterburner before (95% of Super Speed). As testing shows, there are rare instances where Flight is advantageous, but those are somewhat rare.

 

I would like to see Super Jump increased to 114.23 (95%) and Flight increased to 102.20 (85%) with Afterburner 108.22 (90% 1/2 the time - functionally 87.5%). I would also like to see a reduction in the TP animation time by about 50%.

(Alternatively, reduce Super Speed to 100, Super Jump to 95, and Afterburner to 99 (1/3 of the time).)

 

Another issue is that Evasive Maneuvers now gives Flight an unprecedented amount of non-suppressed movement, whereas ground-based toons do not have an equivalent ability.

I would also like to see combat suppression removed from Infiltration and the base speed of Hover and Evasive Maneuvers increased by 10-20%

 

This maintains the speed rankings in a more reasonable delineation. It also improves combat mobility without breaking the game.

Edited to better elicit my thought process.

Thank you, but you're completely misunderstanding my analysis. I tested travel power movements in extreme and outlier situations. If anything, this data should indicate how speed is just one aspect of travel utility – verticality is also an aspect that, in the case of the Grandville course, makes a lot of difference. Here is the part you should've included in your quote:

 

RESULTS: It took less than two minutes in extreme cases to get to the end of any of these outlier courses. Combining the new travel speed caps with the already immense ease of travel using other means (tram/black helio/ferry, SG base, Ouroborus, portals, mission transporter(s), team tps, etc.) makes getting anywhere in this game trivial.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 4, 2021 by Glacier Peak

[Zepp]

3 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

Thank you, but you're completely misunderstanding my analysis. I tested travel power movements in extreme and outlier situations. If anything, this data should indicate how speed is just one aspect of travel utility – verticality is also an aspect that, in the case of the Grandville course, makes a lot of difference. Here is the part you should've included in your quote:

 

RESULTS: It took less than two minutes in extreme cases to get to the end of any of these outlier courses. Combining the new travel speed caps with the already immense ease of travel using other means (tram/black helio/ferry, SG base, Ouroborus, portals, mission transporter(s), team tps, etc.) makes getting anywhere in this game trivial.

I understand your interpretation. The reason that I suggested the specific numbers was because of verticality.

 

Even if travel is "trivial" in the game it is not a reason to maintain the level of disparity between travel speeds (actually exacerbating the differential between SS & Flight as compared to Live).

[Glacier Peak]

57 minutes ago, Zepp said:

Even if travel is "trivial" in the game it is not a reason to maintain the level of disparity between travel speeds (actually exacerbating the differential between SS & Flight as compared to Live).

I just want to stress again that my analysis was conducted in extreme and outlier situations. This context is very important when referencing the data I collected. As for how I interpreted the data, I made that conclusion based on my testing of extreme and outlier situations - if you have data that adds to or contradicts my findings, I would (and I am sure the rest of the testing community) be appreciative if you shared it. 

 

Lastly, if you have data that you collected through testing that supports your conclusion, that "even if travel is 'trivial' in the game it is not a reason to maintain the level of disparity between travel speeds," I would be glad to review it as well. It would promote informed discussion for the testing community and add to feedback based on actual testing. 

[Jacke]

How about the impact on Super Speed when used in indoor maps for stealth?  If it's not enhanced, is it still controllable?

[Luminara]

On 4/3/2021 at 10:04 AM, Zepp said:

Another issue is that Evasive Maneuvers now gives Flight an unprecedented amount of non-suppressed movement, whereas ground-based toons do not have an equivalent ability.

 

In the flight feedback thread, I outline how a player can attain an unsuppressed Jump speed of 59.05 mph (63.31 with the Agility Radial Paragon alpha Incarnate ability), to which you responded with the following -

 

On 4/1/2021 at 2:05 AM, Zepp said:

With a three 50+5 flight enhancements in Swift, Hover, & Evasive Maneuvers and 76.5 Movement bonus you can hit 54% flight mobility.

 

It doesn't really matter whether you intended 54% to mean 54 mph, or 54% of capped Fly speed (55.23 mph), for the purpose of this response, because it clearly demonstrates that your assertion about ground-based characters lacking equivalent unsuppressed movement is wrong.  I'm interested in how you arrived at this conclusion, that characters on the ground lack comparable unsuppressed movement in comparison to flying characters, considering that you posted that response more than two days before you made this incorrect statement.