Forming Teams :: is it too scary to lead/recuit?

[UltraAlt]

On 4/7/2021 at 11:48 AM, Shred Monkey said:

Yeah.. I see it all the time.  Passing the star to initiate the TF so the players can be at the level cap for the TF is obviously the most intelligent thing to do.

 

Not true.

That's your opinion.

 

The levels scale so if you run at a lower level, the enemies are scaled down to that level as well - so you don't need the powers you think you are missing in most cases.

[honoroit]

On 4/7/2021 at 7:58 AM, iBot said:

Personally I think this falls under the category of "solution in search of a problem."  Why does OP care about others' feelings on leading teams?  If I want to run a team, I'll run a team.  If I don't, then I won't.  It really is no more complicated than that.  As for people joining a team then immediately trying to take it over there is a solution: kick.  It is my team and I'll decide what I want to do with it.  If they don't like it they are free to go make a team on their own.  Course, I have probably run a PuG twice in the entire time CoH has been back since I'm lucky enough that my SG from Live is active and thriving.  And moving the star to the highest whenever we TF is SOP for us.

 

 

 

Note to self: do not cage with other animals. 

Edit: (and before it responds thinking itself clever, it seems the sort that does... yes, decidedly 'free range') 

Edited April 11, 2021 by honoroit
The sensoral systems of a thinking machine are often bound by the limits of its creator. I. E. rules for structure of thought and its storage. Do better.

[Shred Monkey]

2 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

 

Not true.

That's your opinion.

 

The levels scale so if you run at a lower level, the enemies are scaled down to that level as well - so you don't need the powers you think you are missing in most cases.

 

Most people share that opinion, but that's beside the point.  The point is that person asking for the star isn't "stealing the team" as the OP accused them of doing.   

 

The level's don't scale.  If you're level 31 set at +0/1 and you start a manticore task force, you and everyone on your team will be level 31 (or 30 if they happen to be below 31).... But you'll be greeted at the door of the first mission by level 35s.  

 

They person asking for the star is correcting for this scenario. 

 

Also, if the TF is run at level 38, the team members above level 38 will have access to those level 38 powers.  It's reasonable for a player to want their level 38 power even if it's not "needed."  Some tanks, for example may use their level 38 power in their attack chain, and without it they do a lot of standing around waiting for a power to recharge.  In that case, they may prefer to not run the TF at all if it's going to be run at 31 instead of 35.  That's a very reasonable conversation to have before he task force and has nothing to do with "team stealing."  

Edited April 11, 2021 by Shred Monkey

[Sovera]

8 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

Not true.

That's your opinion.

 

The levels scale so if you run at a lower level, the enemies are scaled down to that level as well - so you don't need the powers you think you are missing in most cases.

 

Some do, some don't. Take Manticore for example. It opens at level 30 so you might think you're fine leading the team at minimum level only to enter and discover ALL enemies are level 35 even if you're at +0.

 

Or Lady Grey. That one the enemies do scale... except Hami. Wasted an hour or so playing it at level 38 only to reach Hami and find it was level 50. Of course we never managed to get past it.

 

And lets not forget the bug that plagued Positron part one for months on end before it was fixed. The fourth or so mission would spawn Doc Buzzsaw at maximum level (15) even if we started the team at level 8 (minimum level to open the TF). Good luck fighting a +7 Elite Boss 😄

 

 

Regardless you are correct. It's your team and if your decision is to ignore it when informed of the above examples (just a sample, I'm sure there are more) or stop players from having as many powers as exemplaring allows it is your right to demand it. As is theirs to drop team if they don't care to follow your rules.

[iBot]

On 4/11/2021 at 6:41 AM, honoroit said:

 

Note to self: do not cage with other animals. 

Edit: (and before it responds thinking itself clever, it seems the sort that does... yes, decidedly 'free range') 

 

Luckily for us we don't ever have to team together... problem solved.

 

On 4/11/2021 at 6:11 AM, UltraAlt said:

 

Because I'm not a sociopath or a psychopath.

 

Thanks for the implied insult though neither am I.  There are a myriad of reasons why a player may not want to lead a team and none of the solutions proposed here would have any impact on that.

[Gatling]

I find it really tiresome to get people to play synergistically. I once had people rage quit because I asked them to Clear Counter clock wise, and instead they just jumped up and down the middle and dying a whole bunch. And they were the tanks so Our defenders kept dying over and over too (What makes it even more sour is I was perfectly capable of solo clearing it, but the added people who refused to comply just made it a complete mess, I just wanted to spread the exp love damn it and get through it faster). So I usually just ask to join groups or help those who may need it. I listen closely and try to stay glued to the tank or the person who most needs protection. It's less stressful, because I'm easy to manage as a team mate and don't have to reign anyone in or be authoritarian. I already have a job in real life, don't want to bring that into my game life.

That being said: If anyone on Torchbearer wants some Pew pew or help on ANYTHING, I will do my best if you see me around 🙂 Just drop me a message and I'll come flying in.

Edited April 12, 2021 by Gatling

[CaptTastic]

I’m happy to lead, particularly when playing my tank, because think tanks tend to ‘lead’ a team in gameplay regardless. 
 

I just send out a message on LFG: “Just about to do some radios missions. Anyone at a loose end is welcome to join me. All welcome” That kind of thing. 
 

People always join then I just ask anyone if there is any content they want to specifically do, and tend to go from there. 
 

Only thing that gets a little annoying is all the typing. Not during gameplay itself but filling again when people leave. That can get frustrating, but obviously if you do TFs that’s not a problem. 

[cranebump]

I no longer bother forming TFs these days. First, someone's always doing it, anyway, so I don't have to. When I do run with these teams, I find the current SOP=bumrushing to the end of everything (to include not waiting for others to even get to the mish door). It's seldom fun (though, to be fair, when you've run the same TFs a thousand times, it's hard to make it super fun again). So, maybe rush-rush get-it-over-with really is the best recourse. Still, I can't tell you how many TFs (and a few mission teams) I've jumped onto the last few months where it seems like 2 people want the rest of the party to stand there and shine spots & strobes on them. During one such run (Yin), I literally said aloud [well, my cat was there, so I guess he counts], "Why am I even here?" Then I remembered: "It's a TF. They all get bumrushed. You're here because you need 17 more merits to get the last enhancement in Blaster archetype set." Get over it.*  In any case, having to rewrite the current SOP for TFs isn't something I want, or need, to do. It is what it is. I just hope new players don't feel completely left behind when the party tank-types (not always actual tanks these days) keep b-slapping mobs, then leaving a good portion of them for others to mop up, so they can go b-slap another mob.** 

 

Outside the TF's [which is where most of my current teaming is these days--I spend a lot of time AE scripting otherwise], I've run only a handful of mish groups since joining HC. Part of my reluctance is because I (perhaps wrongly) anticipate that the current TF mentality may be pervasive (and I don't want to herd impatient kittens). But the real reason is that teaming just isn't the same as it was before the "reboot." In these days of (relatively) easy power acquisition, it just doesn't feel like we all need each other as much as we used to. That was an aspect to teaming that I enjoyed the most (well, behind good team banter, which you can still get on any team, thankfully). I would imagine this aspect could be replicated simply by forming more lowbie teams. However, I recall the last 3 times I advertised for the first KR bank mish. Crickets. No reason to run it, I guess, when you can explore AP, exchange merits for enhancers, sell the enhancers, then buy a cheap jet pack, if you want one. When I advertised for Frostfire, though, no problem. So, there are ways to get what I'd personally like to see on a team I would run. I probably need to practice that patience I preach about about when I'm team forming.

 

Hope this doesn't sound like a ton of complaining. I realize any issues with team style are simple fixes. Run my own teams. But I did want to address the issue of why someone who didn't formerly mind the star now more or less shuns it. As with all who do, it is really our own issues & expectations more than anything else. The game elements themselves are merely clay.

 

*I actually had a fairly useful character, and actually did find a moment to shine during the end mish, when we got multi-mobbed (and some -Accs, Slows and multiple KD AoE's helped slow the tide).

**Ever feel like you're playing free safety? Play a blaster tagging along with someone who does that. Every. Single. Mission. Every. Single. Mob. 

Edited April 12, 2021 by cranebump

[Neiska]

A few thoughts -

 

1. Different people will enjoy different activities. I would hope people agree this is by design in a game where you can pretty much play anything, limited only by your imagination. Some people like to quietly solo. Some people like to farm. Some people like to lead a team of heroes against global threats. Some people like to play the market/auction house. Some people like exploring. Some people like base building. Some people like hanging out and roleplaying with their friends. Some people host costume contests, dance parties, games of chance, or trivia. I have even come across a blackjack game in progress.

 

None of these things are wrong. I would argue to be expected.

 

2. With regards to teaming itself, well, I do lead teams. I regularly offer spots when I am farming. Not everyone likes farming. That is fine, I have no argument against that. And they are certainly free not to join my group as well. But this has lead to some interesting conversations as well as making many friends, simply because I farm with Masterminds, and have become quite good at it. Which seems to be a somewhat rare thing to see, which leads to questions and discussions on the how's and details. And as far as I can tell, people are genuinely excited to see it.

 

What I do not do, is I do not lead teams on random missions. For a variety of reasons. I largely dislike the "gogogogo" playstyle that all too often pops up among a random group of strangers. I may join a team that includes friends, because our playstyles and personalities mesh well. But the random PIs or ITFs where  it is gogogogo I do not find particularly enjoyable. Even if no one dies, and the mission goes off flawlessly, I dislike being encouraged to run about like a headless chicken. I would much rather do my own thing and get more infamy, more drops, more experience, then be a part of such things.

 

I do however, join teams where I don't lead, largely as a support role. I don't focus on the damage or killing enemies, I focus on everyone's health, endurance, so on, particularly with low levels involved, as my setup can manage all of that for the entire team.

 

3. On the "stealing the star" topic, I would argue that would depend entirely on who is giving it. If the lead star leaves the group, they can pass to whomever they wish. Or, if they just leave, then whomever gets the star gets it. And it is up to the remaining TEAM to decide whom should get the star, to my mind. And one person on the team stating "they stole the star" does not make it so, if the rest of the team doesn't feel the same fashion. And in my experience, for the most part as long as missions keep succeeding, most people don't care who has the star. Indeed, some don't even want it or be responsible for selecting the next mission and whatnot.

 

I would like to close remarking on the irony in simultaneously presenting a case of "we need more random team leaders" and within the same paragraph, go on to say "stop stealing the leadership star" which to my mind, is a self defeating argument.

 

Just my thoughts on it.

 

Best wishes to everyone, regardless of favored activity. Star or no star.

Edited April 12, 2021 by Neiska

[lemming]

I'll admit, a lot of people would rather not lead a team.   That's where I fall a lot of the time, though I'm perfectly fine on leading most of the TFs.

On passing the star to a higher level, I normally see the person who gathered everyone up ask if the star should be passed.

Only TF (iirc) that I feel it's mandatory is Manticore.   Posi is the opposite, you can avoid spirits if you're lower level....

 

And for the most part, I find random teams are usually pretty good or at least entertaining.

[Ukase]

Always a fun topic, this "fear of the star" issue. 

When HC first came up, I led a fair number of iTrials, tfs. Even some tips missions along the way. The more I led...the less I liked it. Here's why: 

People are different. I say "Forming a Synapse, as speedy as we can get through it".  I get a number of "invite" tells, and I invite. Soon, the team fills. I generally will TT to first mission. Most of the Synapse tf is in Steel, and then there's a mission in Boomtown and back to Steel, and then eventually, Skyway for the last three. 

There's usually one in the crowd that didn't see me chat "TT upon exit" before the mission completed, and they miss it. It's not that big of a deal, but when you couple that with the afk times, and <gasp> a role player, and someone that clearly doesn't know how to play their character or isn't slotted because they die, lay there, they don't hosp it and expect me to give them a wakie. And they don't ask for a wakie - they just lay there, expecting the fairy godmother to rez them. 

And then there's the guy who sends you a tell that he's going to switch, but he doesn't tell you who he's going to switch to, and when he comes back on, he says something in broadcast, help or lfg "I'm back".   Like I know who that is, lol. Sometimes, if the tells aren't coming in fast, I will have time to determine the global name from the first tell, then get the global name from the one who stated they were back. But often, I miss them and they get mad because they switched, but didn't tell me who they were switching to. 

And of course, there's always one guy who's the wrong alignment, and takes forever to go to pocket D and switch. Unless you just came back last week, I expect most everyone to have lrtp access or at least be able to use the lfg tp shortcut. Drives me crazy having to wait for people! I certainly cut newer players some slack, and I don't exactly like thinking people are lazy. I try to remind myself that a lot of people are busy in real life. They don't want to be busy when they play a game for fun. But, it still bugs me that I have to wait because they haven't bothered to get a mission tp or lrtp, or even a base tp. I'd love it if everyone got team tp, too, but they are kind of pricy for some players who couldn't be bothered to make 100 million on the market in an hour or less like everyone else does who knows the market. 

 

Mind you - for every two groups like that I get, I get one group that has their act together, where I'm probably the one they're shaking their head at. Some of these folks are so fast, they are half way through the map before zone into it, and I consider myself pretty fast for zoning/load times and arriving to the mission. It's not like I've opted for ninja run instead of superspeed, either. 

I find the biggest thing that prevents me from using lfg to form a team is that people are so slow. Why would I want to spend 20 minutes forming an MoUGT when undoubtedly there's one who doesn't understand or didn't notice my clear instructions of "Don't pass me, there's a bomb ahead"? 

I used to have confidence in the players from lfg. I just don't anymore. Now that I've been an SG member for 8 months, I've seen how much more simple the challenging tasks can be  - like Master of Keyes. There are still a few goofs, but they are far fewer with the sg than with the pug. So why play with the pug? The crazy thing is - we will invite anyone who wants an invitation, so there's still an element of pugness to various SG events. But we use discord, which makes explanations a lot easier. 

I've led hamidon raids before, but after about 4000 merits, it just got old and boring. It's too simple, and pretty dull. I used to like the chatter, but that got old, too. So, now, aside from the sg stuff I lead, I won't lead unless it's something I want to do and can't fit it into the sg schedule. 

[Apparition]

51 minutes ago, Ukase said:

Always a fun topic, this "fear of the star" issue. 

When HC first came up, I led a fair number of iTrials, tfs. Even some tips missions along the way. The more I led...the less I liked it. Here's why: 

People are different. I say "Forming a Synapse, as speedy as we can get through it".  I get a number of "invite" tells, and I invite. Soon, the team fills. I generally will TT to first mission. Most of the Synapse tf is in Steel, and then there's a mission in Boomtown and back to Steel, and then eventually, Skyway for the last three. 

There's usually one in the crowd that didn't see me chat "TT upon exit" before the mission completed, and they miss it. It's not that big of a deal, but when you couple that with the afk times, and <gasp> a role player, and someone that clearly doesn't know how to play their character or isn't slotted because they die, lay there, they don't hosp it and expect me to give them a wakie. And they don't ask for a wakie - they just lay there, expecting the fairy godmother to rez them. 

And then there's the guy who sends you a tell that he's going to switch, but he doesn't tell you who he's going to switch to, and when he comes back on, he says something in broadcast, help or lfg "I'm back".   Like I know who that is, lol. Sometimes, if the tells aren't coming in fast, I will have time to determine the global name from the first tell, then get the global name from the one who stated they were back. But often, I miss them and they get mad because they switched, but didn't tell me who they were switching to. 

And of course, there's always one guy who's the wrong alignment, and takes forever to go to pocket D and switch. Unless you just came back last week, I expect most everyone to have lrtp access or at least be able to use the lfg tp shortcut. Drives me crazy having to wait for people! I certainly cut newer players some slack, and I don't exactly like thinking people are lazy. I try to remind myself that a lot of people are busy in real life. They don't want to be busy when they play a game for fun. But, it still bugs me that I have to wait because they haven't bothered to get a mission tp or lrtp, or even a base tp. I'd love it if everyone got team tp, too, but they are kind of pricy for some players who couldn't be bothered to make 100 million on the market in an hour or less like everyone else does who knows the market. 

 

Mind you - for every two groups like that I get, I get one group that has their act together, where I'm probably the one they're shaking their head at. Some of these folks are so fast, they are half way through the map before zone into it, and I consider myself pretty fast for zoning/load times and arriving to the mission. It's not like I've opted for ninja run instead of superspeed, either. 

I find the biggest thing that prevents me from using lfg to form a team is that people are so slow. Why would I want to spend 20 minutes forming an MoUGT when undoubtedly there's one who doesn't understand or didn't notice my clear instructions of "Don't pass me, there's a bomb ahead"? 

I used to have confidence in the players from lfg. I just don't anymore. Now that I've been an SG member for 8 months, I've seen how much more simple the challenging tasks can be  - like Master of Keyes. There are still a few goofs, but they are far fewer with the sg than with the pug. So why play with the pug? The crazy thing is - we will invite anyone who wants an invitation, so there's still an element of pugness to various SG events. But we use discord, which makes explanations a lot easier. 

I've led hamidon raids before, but after about 4000 merits, it just got old and boring. It's too simple, and pretty dull. I used to like the chatter, but that got old, too. So, now, aside from the sg stuff I lead, I won't lead unless it's something I want to do and can't fit it into the sg schedule. 

 

 

I hear you.  Most of my friends have long since stopped playing, so I've been relying on PUGs more and more... and ugh.  I honestly think a lot of it is the shard though.  Excelsior has become Freedom in all of the worst ways.  So I've been mostly playing on another shard as of late.  It's not 100% better, but it is better.  I played on Champion prior to sunset, which was a small server where everyone pretty much knew everyone else.  Like a small town.  So it had its fair share of drama like small towns, but it also meant that everyone was accountable.  On a large shard in a free-to-play game, that's not the case.

[UltraAlt]

On 4/11/2021 at 11:43 AM, Shred Monkey said:

The point is that person asking for the star isn't "stealing the team" as the OP accused them of doing. 

 

They are trying to take the team. I am the OP.

Trying to get someone to hand over the star and the doing what they want with the team is team stealing.

 

[UltraAlt]

On 4/11/2021 at 5:43 PM, Sovera said:

Regardless you are correct. It's your team and if your decision is to ignore it when informed of the above examples (just a sample, I'm sure there are more) or stop players from having as many powers as exemplaring allows it is your right to demand it. As is theirs to drop team if they don't care to follow your rules.

 

So you are reference what appear to be bugs in task forces that need to be addressed and have indicated that some of them have already been addressed. 

 

No one is bound to anything in the game except by friendship, honor or a doggedness to find away to overcome hardship.

[Shred Monkey]

27 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

 

They are trying to take the team. I am the OP.

Trying to get someone to hand over the star and the doing what they want with the team is team stealing.

 

 

My point is that YOU are wrong.  That's not what is happening.  They're increasing the level of the team.  They haven't taken anything away from you.   Besides... just say no if you don't want to do it.  But you ARE wrong about their motives.

 

Edited April 15, 2021 by Shred Monkey

[Darmian]

52 minutes ago, Shred Monkey said:

 

My point is that YOU are wrong.  That's not what is happening.  They're increasing the level of the team.  They haven't taken anything away from you.   Besides... just say no if you don't want to do it.  But you ARE wrong about their motives.

 

It all depends on the intent of who is asking to take the star. Just stating "I'm a 50, give me the star so we can increase the level" frankly IS attempting to steal the team.  If you want to do that form your own team.  If you ask "Hey, if you pass the star to me we'll all get a bump up in XP et cetera, you cool with that?" I would say that's fine and not stealing - depending on their actual reaction when told "No thanks."  It is all situational.  With so many things the reading of text chat can be very dependent on both the chat skills of the writer and the mood of the reader, and that's being generous to both sides there.

[Grindingsucks]

They really can't "steal" anything, because the star must be given freely.  One should always ask politely, rather than demand, though.  That's just simple courtesy.

 

If you want to pick a word to describe the latter, "pressure" or "bully" might be a better choice.

[Shred Monkey]

15 minutes ago, Darmian said:

It all depends on the intent of who is asking to take the star. Just stating "I'm a 50, give me the star so we can increase the level" frankly IS attempting to steal the team.  If you want to do that form your own team.  If you ask "Hey, if you pass the star to me we'll all get a bump up in XP et cetera, you cool with that?" I would say that's fine and not stealing - depending on their actual reaction when told "No thanks."  It is all situational.  With so many things the reading of text chat can be very dependent on both the chat skills of the writer and the mood of the reader, and that's being generous to both sides there.

 

Well, I stand by my original assessment that anyone who honestly believes "team stealing" is a thing is delusional.  Because it's just not an actual thing.

[Darmian]

12 minutes ago, Grindingsucks said:

They really can't "steal" anything, because the star must be given freely.  One should always ask politely, rather than demand, though.  That's just simple courtesy.

 

If you want to pick a word to describe the latter, "pressure" or "bully" might be a better choice.

I said "attempting to steal", your definition is better.

[Darmian]

Just now, Shred Monkey said:

 

Well, I stand by my original assessment that anyone who honestly believes "team stealing" is a thing is delusional.  Because it's just not an actual thing.

Well, we're in Lebowski territory now, that's just like your opinion, and similar with me.

[Darmian]

To be fair, I cannot say anyone decides "I'm going to steal that team/join it and bully them into giving me the star".  But anecdotally, because I've seen what looks like it, I think there are those who join a team and decide "this would be better with me as the leader, so I'm going to try to get the star off them."  Again, that has two effects.  (a) you're nice about it or (b) you're a gobshite.  No one here is complaining about (a).

 

 

[Grindingsucks]

I will grant you that it could certainly feel that way to the person presently holding the star.  Most people asking for the star are really just offering to take it so that everyone can get the biggest xp boost and/or challenge from the run, though.  I don't think there's (usually) any malevolent intent behind it.  There will, of course, always be exceptions.

 

PUG's are often dissatisfying to me, though- unless I'm lucky enough to get in a group where all the members are within 2 or three lvls of my character.  Any greater level difference than this, and I find play either frustratingly difficult or (more commonly) a boring steamroll.

[Darmian]

"Team stealing" aside, I see far more teams being called for by players who just have a way they like doing things and will be simply abusive to anyone who joins their team who doesn't play how they like, to the point of quitting as leader if things aren't going their way. I've been on one of those teams, and I never team with that person anymore.  Last week I saw them call out for an ITF, about five minutes later another person starts recruiting for an ITF.  I joined that one.  We had finished the temple ambush when the other team declared they were full and about to start, because too many of us now know what that "leader" is like.

[Shred Monkey]

12 minutes ago, Darmian said:

To be fair, I cannot say anyone decides "I'm going to steal that team/join it and bully them into giving me the star". 

 

 

There.... that statement I agree with.  I was taking your OP as meaning people are actively attempting to take over control of a team and that somehow getting the star means a success.  1) I don't believe that ever happens.  And 2) I do not believe that obtaining the star means you have taken over leadership of a team.

[Darmian]

No, I think attitude and intention and people's mood are important and frankly I see people just not reading the room properly, all that leads to what we're describing as "team stealing". I've never seen anyone leave a team because the leader didn't hand over a star. I HAVE seen a player quit because they weren't given it though. And I have seen a player argue about handing it back. All this is anecdotal to me though. YMMV.