Please revert the Rage change.

[POSSUMNUTS]

Super Strength was originally designed for tanks and brutes that have to maintain the ability to take massive amounts of damage in an instant (burst damage/peak damage). The -20% debuff was probably never activated because the original developers realized the trifecta of debuffs (damage/endurance/stamina) was more than any other power set has. Super Strength is not an over powered popular power set so why is it necessary to make it unpopular and undesirable? This is a matter of fixing something that’s not broken. There are powers that are extremely unpopular, Super Strength May now become one of them thanks to meddling third party development.

[speczero]

The solution to drop -Def and balance the powerset is really simple, the problem is those wanting to just drop the -Def do not want balance.

 

1st solution- completely drop -Def and then run damage comparisons against the other Tank and Brute AT's on pylon or however, then adjust the +hit and +dam of rage to put SS in the middle of the pact as far as DPS.

 

2nd solution- completely drop -Def and then run damage comparisons against other Tank and Brute AT's on pylon or however and leave the +hit and +dam of rage alone and adjust all the powers in SS so that it is in the middle of the pact as far as DPS.

 

edit: added Tank and Brute in front of AT's

[Vanden]

The solution to drop -Def and balance the powerset is really simple, the problem is those wanting to just drop the -Def do not want balance.

 

1st solution- completely drop -Def and then run damage comparisons against the other Tank and Brute AT's on pylon or however, then adjust the +hit and +dam of rage to put SS in the middle of the pact as far as DPS.

 

2nd solution- completely drop -Def and then run damage comparisons against other Tank and Brute AT's on pylon or however and leave the +hit and +dam of rage alone and adjust all the powers in SS so that it is in the middle of the pact as far as DPS.

 

edit: added Tank and Brute in front of AT's

 

Why does SS have to be middle of the pack?

[Peerless Girl]

Super Strength was originally designed for tanks and brutes that have to maintain the ability to take massive amounts of damage in an instant (burst damage/peak damage). The -20% debuff was probably never activated because the original developers realized the trifecta of debuffs (damage/endurance/stamina) was more than any other power set has. Super Strength is not an over powered popular power set so why is it necessary to make it unpopular and undesirable? This is a matter of fixing something that’s not broken. There are powers that are extremely unpopular, Super Strength May now become one of them thanks to meddling third party development.

 

The -def was active on live except when you overlapped (stacked) rage, then it overwrote itself and canceled itself out. it was a bug, and one that was allowed to persist for long periods of time. Rage used to set you to Only Affect Self (like Afterburn does now) but I and some others complained to Castle significantly about not being able to taunt or hit anything to hold aggro and do a tank's job with that in place. It was changed to -Damage (-9,990 or something), instead. The Def debuf has been there almost as long as I can remember, but it ended up not applying properly when the second instance of it tried to apply, they knew about it, but to fix it would've required a full rewrite of the powers/queuing system, which I gather Score did in i25, which "fixed" the bug (and allowed powers to behave much more properly in general). Rage likely needs to be looked at, but it's not something that can simply be "reverted" because it is code that is needed for the entire powers system now.

[speczero]

The solution to drop -Def and balance the powerset is really simple, the problem is those wanting to just drop the -Def do not want balance.

 

1st solution- completely drop -Def and then run damage comparisons against the other Tank and Brute AT's on pylon or however, then adjust the +hit and +dam of rage to put SS in the middle of the pact as far as DPS.

 

2nd solution- completely drop -Def and then run damage comparisons against other Tank and Brute AT's on pylon or however and leave the +hit and +dam of rage alone and adjust all the powers in SS so that it is in the middle of the pact as far as DPS.

 

edit: added Tank and Brute in front of AT's

 

Why does SS have to be middle of the pack?

 

It does not have to be right in the center as long as it is in the pack and not above or below.

[marcussmythe]

The solution to drop -Def and balance the powerset is really simple, the problem is those wanting to just drop the -Def do not want balance.

 

1st solution- completely drop -Def and then run damage comparisons against the other Tank and Brute AT's on pylon or however, then adjust the +hit and +dam of rage to put SS in the middle of the pact as far as DPS.

 

2nd solution- completely drop -Def and then run damage comparisons against other Tank and Brute AT's on pylon or however and leave the +hit and +dam of rage alone and adjust all the powers in SS so that it is in the middle of the pact as far as DPS.

 

edit: added Tank and Brute in front of AT's

 

Why does SS have to be middle of the pack?

 

Where precisely do you think it should be, and why?

[Vanden]

The solution to drop -Def and balance the powerset is really simple, the problem is those wanting to just drop the -Def do not want balance.

 

1st solution- completely drop -Def and then run damage comparisons against the other Tank and Brute AT's on pylon or however, then adjust the +hit and +dam of rage to put SS in the middle of the pact as far as DPS.

 

2nd solution- completely drop -Def and then run damage comparisons against other Tank and Brute AT's on pylon or however and leave the +hit and +dam of rage alone and adjust all the powers in SS so that it is in the middle of the pact as far as DPS.

 

edit: added Tank and Brute in front of AT's

 

Why does SS have to be middle of the pack?

 

Where precisely do you think it should be, and why?

 

That person I quoted is talking about adjusting it to make sure it's just an average set, like there's some sort of problem with Super Strength being the best or worst.

[speczero]

The solution to drop -Def and balance the powerset is really simple, the problem is those wanting to just drop the -Def do not want balance.

 

1st solution- completely drop -Def and then run damage comparisons against the other Tank and Brute AT's on pylon or however, then adjust the +hit and +dam of rage to put SS in the middle of the pact as far as DPS.

 

2nd solution- completely drop -Def and then run damage comparisons against other Tank and Brute AT's on pylon or however and leave the +hit and +dam of rage alone and adjust all the powers in SS so that it is in the middle of the pact as far as DPS.

 

edit: added Tank and Brute in front of AT's

 

Why does SS have to be middle of the pack?

 

Where precisely do you think it should be, and why?

 

I honestly do not really have an opinion on exactly where it should be other than I do not think it should do more damage than Titan which has to deal with the momentum mechanic. And I also think it has been established Titan is currently the top damage in Brute.

I would be okay with it being equal to or just below Titan but I think this is an answer that would have to come from the current Devs.

 

As far as Titan Weapons goes I don't think any AT in Brute should be raised above Titan until the Lower Damaging sets are brought up closer to Titan.

[speczero]

The solution to drop -Def and balance the powerset is really simple, the problem is those wanting to just drop the -Def do not want balance.

 

1st solution- completely drop -Def and then run damage comparisons against the other Tank and Brute AT's on pylon or however, then adjust the +hit and +dam of rage to put SS in the middle of the pact as far as DPS.

 

2nd solution- completely drop -Def and then run damage comparisons against other Tank and Brute AT's on pylon or however and leave the +hit and +dam of rage alone and adjust all the powers in SS so that it is in the middle of the pact as far as DPS.

 

edit: added Tank and Brute in front of AT's

 

Why does SS have to be middle of the pack?

 

Where precisely do you think it should be, and why?

 

That person I quoted is talking about adjusting it to make sure it's just an average set, like there's some sort of problem with Super Strength being the best or worst.

 

 

Because when you change something and you make it the best or the worst you are moving the bar for everything else, By keeping it in the middle of the pack you do not change the bar on everything else in the set.

[Nixeras]

In which case what's the point in anything being better or worse? Every T1 power should just hit 50 damage at base I guess.

[Stormmage]

It seems to me that the crash as currently functioning creates a set of dispirit and in some cases punishing consequences that make the crash possibly game breaking for some characters.  To briefly summarizes points from above:

 

1. The -def crash is so large as to be role breaking for

• Many tanks, expecially late game
   
  
• Some brutes, especially SR
   
  

 

 

2. The - damage penalty is sufficiently large that is game role breaking for brutes

• it is basically not fun to have your character on time out from their role for 10s every 60-120s
   
  

 

 

Here are my personal suggestions for an adjustment to fix rage

1. Add an ongoing modest End cost as long as Rage is running.  That would make you keep on eye on things. especially if you stack it.

2. Add a modest -def 5% and resist -10% (maybe 2.5 and 5) penalty to the end of rage.  Tanks would need to keep on eye out for building this up or having it apply at a bad time

3. Remove the damage penalty - it just dramatically reduces the fun for brutes.  If you are committed to it, just make it small so you can essentially keep playing.

 

FYI:  I played SS tankers on the old live and I am playing a SS Brute on Homecoming.

 

I have one question:  any ETA on a fix test?

 

Thanks to the homecoming team for chatting with us about this.

Stormmage

 

[Murcielago]

Outside of rage SS is pretty average.

[zuel]

Again, there's nothing to revert. The change was not targeted at Rage at all. Rather, it was a consequence of a larger rewrite of powers code to change how stacking worked to fix some other bugs, that also happened to fix this... shall we say, feature. There are no plans to un-rewrite powers code, to my knowledge.

 

Fair enough Widower, I used the wrong language. By "revert" I didn't mean "undo the powers code change," so I'll stop using the term out of that context to avoid confusion.

 

What I'm suggesting is make a new change to Rage so that functionally it works similar to how it did on Live, meaning dropping the -Def crash or making it resistible.

 

Once that's done, we can have a rich and lively discussion about wholesale revisions to SS, which can be tested on Justin before being implemented.

 

I maintain that the "functional revision" of Rage can be detached from a full review of SS. If people really want the latter (although I personally don't see the necessity), then by all means let's do it, but do so after Rage is changed.

[flyinggecko]

I main-tank incarnate trials with Invul/SS, and the rage crash is completely negligible. If anything, it actually allows Ice shields/Force fields to actually buff me for 10 seconds a minute .

[Solarverse]

The solution to drop -Def and balance the powerset is really simple, the problem is those wanting to just drop the -Def do not want balance.

 

1st solution- completely drop -Def and then run damage comparisons against the other Tank and Brute AT's on pylon or however, then adjust the +hit and +dam of rage to put SS in the middle of the pact as far as DPS.

 

2nd solution- completely drop -Def and then run damage comparisons against other Tank and Brute AT's on pylon or however and leave the +hit and +dam of rage alone and adjust all the powers in SS so that it is in the middle of the pact as far as DPS.

 

edit: added Tank and Brute in front of AT's

 

Why does SS have to be middle of the pack?

 

This right here. Damn good question. Sounds to me we are scared of aggroing Elec players in to stomping on this thread...for fear of losing their number one spot...or whatever spot people feel is number one.  :D

 

At one time, SS used to be the number one power set. It was for years. Personally, I think the only fix it needs is to lose the -defense and endurance crash. the -99% damage is fine....and fair.

[PhroX]

Personally, I regard the damage debuff as a far bigger problem than the def debuff. Sure, the latter can really hurt when it happens in the midst of a big fight, but the former stops me from playing my character. It's just not fun to have 10 seconds of not being able to punch people with any effect when I'm playing a powerset that's meant to be all about punching people really hard. And being not fun is the worst sin a game can commit in my book.

[Stormmage]

Personally, I regard the damage debuff as a far bigger problem than the def debuff. Sure, the latter can really hurt when it happens in the midst of a big fight, but the former stops me from playing my character. It's just not fun to have 10 seconds of not being able to punch people with any effect when I'm playing a powerset that's meant to be all about punching people really hard. And being not fun is the worst sin a game can commit in my book.

 

At present I agree.  This is definitely the case for Brutes.

[rehmus]

Personally, I regard the damage debuff as a far bigger problem than the def debuff. Sure, the latter can really hurt when it happens in the midst of a big fight, but the former stops me from playing my character. It's just not fun to have 10 seconds of not being able to punch people with any effect when I'm playing a powerset that's meant to be all about punching people really hard. And being not fun is the worst sin a game can commit in my book.

 

^^^ This.  I'd be fine with just removing the damage debuff. I think it gimps the power to have two crashes.  It should be an either/or IMO

[Solarverse]

Personally, I regard the damage debuff as a far bigger problem than the def debuff. Sure, the latter can really hurt when it happens in the midst of a big fight, but the former stops me from playing my character. It's just not fun to have 10 seconds of not being able to punch people with any effect when I'm playing a powerset that's meant to be all about punching people really hard. And being not fun is the worst sin a game can commit in my book.

 

^^^ This.  I'd be fine with just removing the damage debuff. I think it gimps the power to have two crashes.  It should be an either/or IMO

 

It currently has three crashes. Endurance drain, damage drain and defense reduction.

[SwitchFade]

Personally, I regard the damage debuff as a far bigger problem than the def debuff. Sure, the latter can really hurt when it happens in the midst of a big fight, but the former stops me from playing my character. It's just not fun to have 10 seconds of not being able to punch people with any effect when I'm playing a powerset that's meant to be all about punching people really hard. And being not fun is the worst sin a game can commit in my book.

 

^^^ This.  I'd be fine with just removing the damage debuff. I think it gimps the power to have two crashes.  It should be an either/or IMO

 

It currently has three crashes. Endurance drain, damage drain and defense reduction.

 

Which is why my main tank skipped it completely. Sad huh?

[Solarverse]

Personally, I regard the damage debuff as a far bigger problem than the def debuff. Sure, the latter can really hurt when it happens in the midst of a big fight, but the former stops me from playing my character. It's just not fun to have 10 seconds of not being able to punch people with any effect when I'm playing a powerset that's meant to be all about punching people really hard. And being not fun is the worst sin a game can commit in my book.

 

^^^ This.  I'd be fine with just removing the damage debuff. I think it gimps the power to have two crashes.  It should be an either/or IMO

 

It currently has three crashes. Endurance drain, damage drain and defense reduction.

 

Which is why my main tank skipped it completely. Sad huh?

 

Yes, yes it is.  :(  I have it, but I have it on a WP. I wouldn't pick it up on anything but a WP or Elec. Elec has no defense, and does well with Endurance as long as you pick up Energize, so can't hurt that. WP has Regen, REALLY good Endurance Recovery and Resist to back up on, so can't hurt that much either. Everything else though? I wouldn't dare.

[Auroxis]

Sorry if anyone's mentioned this already, but if you sync Barrier and Rage together the def debuff issue goes away. And you still have the flexibility to cast Rage when available if the situation allows it (def buffs from teammates or easy content).

 

As for the damage debuff, procs aren't affected and with the PPM changes you can get pretty significant DPS from procs. Here's an example for both of the above, Barrier to softcap and fix Rage crash, and a proc-heavy rotation which accounts for about 30-40% of DPS.

 

Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.962

http://www.cohplanner.com/

 

Click this DataLink to open the build!

 

Level 50 Mutation Tanker

Primary Power Set: Bio Armor

Secondary Power Set: Super Strength

Power Pool: Fighting

Power Pool: Speed

Power Pool: Leaping

Ancillary Pool: Pyre Mastery

 

Hero Profile:

Level 1: Hardened Carapace -- UnbGrd-ResDam:50(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx:50(7), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:50(9), UnbGrd-EndRdx/Rchg:50(9), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+:30(15), GldArm-3defTpProc:50(17)

Level 1: Jab -- SprBlsCol-Rchg/HoldProc:50(A), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg:50(42), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg:50(43), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(43), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(46)

Level 2: Environmental Modification -- LucoftheG-Rchg+:50(A), Rct-Def/EndRdx:50(3), Rct-Def:50(3), Rct-ResDam%:50(5)

Level 4: Inexhaustible -- Pnc-Heal/+End:50(A)

Level 6: Adaptation

Level 8: Ablative Carapace -- NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+:50(A), NmnCnv-Heal:50(48), NmnCnv-Heal/Rchg:50(48)

Level 10: Haymaker -- SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg:50(A), SprGntFis-Dmg/Rchg:50(11), SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(11), SprGntFis-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(13), SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(13), SprGntFis-Rchg/+Absorb:50(15)

Level 12: Evolving Armor -- UnbGrd-ResDam:50(A), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam:50(40), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx:50(42), UnbGrd-Max HP%:50(43)

Level 14: Boxing -- KntCmb-Acc/Dmg:35(A), KntCmb-Dmg/EndRdx:35(31), KntCmb-Dmg/Rchg:35(42), KntCmb-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:35(50)

Level 16: Tough -- UnbGrd-ResDam:50(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx:50(17), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:50(19), UnbGrd-EndRdx/Rchg:50(19)

Level 18: DNA Siphon -- DctWnd-Heal/Rchg:50(A)

Level 20: Cross Punch -- Arm-Dam%:50(A), Arm-Acc/Rchg:50(21), Arm-Dmg/EndRdx:50(21), Arm-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(27), Arm-Dmg:50(29), FuroftheG-ResDeb%:50(29)

Level 22: Knockout Blow -- Hct-Dam%:50(A), Hct-Dmg/EndRdx:50(23), Hct-Acc/Rchg:50(23), Hct-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(25), Hct-Dmg:50(25), UnbCns-Dam%:50(27)

Level 24: Weave -- LucoftheG-Rchg+:50(A), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP:50(34), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx:50(37), ShlWal-Def:50(40)

Level 26: Genetic Contamination -- EndRdx-I:50(A)

Level 28: Rage -- RechRdx-I:50(A)

Level 30: Taunt -- MckBrt-Taunt:50(A), MckBrt-Taunt/Rchg/Rng:50(31), MckBrt-Taunt/Rng:50(31), MckBrt-Taunt/Rchg:50(46)

Level 32: Parasitic Aura -- Prv-Absorb%:50(A), Prv-Heal/Rchg/EndRdx:50(33), Prv-Heal/Rchg:50(33), Prv-EndRdx/Rchg:50(33), Prv-Heal/EndRdx:50(34), Prv-Heal:50(34)

Level 35: Char -- NrnSht-Dam%:30(A), SprEnt-Rchg/AbsorbProc:50(36), GldNet-Dam%:50(36), GhsWdwEmb-Dam%:50(36), Apc-Dam%:50(37), GldJvl-Dam%:50(37)

Level 38: Foot Stomp -- SprMghoft-Rchg/Res%:50(A), SprMghoft-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(39), SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg:50(39), SprMghoft-Dmg/Rchg:50(39), FrcFdb-Rechg%:50(40)

Level 41: Melt Armor -- AchHee-ResDeb%:20(A)

Level 44: Fire Ball -- Rgn-Knock%:50(A), Rgn-Dmg/EndRdx:50(45), Rgn-Acc/Rchg:50(45), Rgn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(45), Rgn-Dmg/Rchg:50(46)

Level 47: Hasten -- RechRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(48)

Level 49: Combat Jumping -- LucoftheG-Rchg+:50(A), LucoftheG-Def:50(50)

Level 1: Brawl -- KntCmb-Acc/Dmg:35(A), KntCmb-Dmg/EndRdx:35(5), KntCmb-Dmg/Rchg:35(7), KntCmb-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:35(50)

Level 1: Gauntlet

Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)

Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)

Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)

Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)

Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)

Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)

Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)

Level 4: Ninja Run

Level 2: Swift -- Run-I:50(A)

Level 2: Health -- Mrc-Rcvry+:40(A)

Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I:50(A)

Level 2: Stamina -- EndMod-I:50(A)

Level 6: Defensive Adaptation

Level 6: Efficient Adaptation

Level 6: Offensive Adaptation

Level 50: Spiritual Core Paragon

Level 0: Freedom Phalanx Reserve

Level 0: Portal Jockey

Level 0: Task Force Commander

Level 0: The Atlas Medallion

Level 50: Barrier Core Epiphany

------------

 

That being said, I don't think forcing SS players to rely on Barrier is the way to go. I wouldn't mind seeing the change reverted, since it's not exactly a game-breaking set even without a def crash.

 

[Hyperstrike]

Okay, it can be a bit dangerous when fighting solo or when using a bog-basic SO build.

For an Invuln that's soft-capped to S/L/E/N/F/C with one enemy in range and Invincibility saturated?

You're basically looking at a Tank who's rocking PAST the Incarnate soft-cap.

So, -20 puts you into 35-40% Defense range.

 

That's more than an Tank with identical power choices and Generic IOs STARTS with.

Saturated Invince?  41%

 

In the SO/Generic IO game, NO TANK, running solo, is intended to just sit there and eat and entire team's worth of incoming Damage and remain upright.  You're tough compared to your squishies, sure.  But you're still eminently beatable if you're not careful.

 

Completely twinked out?  COMPLETELY different story.  And you can eat the -Def with fewer consequences.

Again, the -Def was ALWAYS supposed to work this way.

The "Offset by double-stacking WAS A BUG".

[Burnt Toast]

Well according to the discussions had in Beta - while it was intended - it was decided against by the development team as too punitive - hence why it was never changed. You realize the exact same argument was used in fire attacks that the fear component should remain on all fire attacks right - remember the burn nerf? While something may have been intended or envisioned a certain way - decisions regarding the actual implementation of such things always happened in beta and sometimes were never implemented for good reasons. The -Defense aspect would hurt many armor sets - especially considering that development changes were/are weighed against SOs and not IOs. If you start using IOs as a standard for what a character can do then most sets should be nerfed - which in turn will ruin the characters of those who still prefer to simply use SOs/HOs.

 

 

Okay, it can be a bit dangerous when fighting solo or when using a bog-basic SO build.

For an Invuln that's soft-capped to S/L/E/N/F/C with one enemy in range and Invincibility saturated?

You're basically looking at a Tank who's rocking PAST the Incarnate soft-cap.

So, -20 puts you into 35-40% Defense range.

 

That's more than an Tank with identical power choices and Generic IOs STARTS with.

Saturated Invince?  41%

 

In the SO/Generic IO game, NO TANK, running solo, is intended to just sit there and eat and entire team's worth of incoming Damage and remain upright.  You're tough compared to your squishies, sure.  But you're still eminently beatable if you're not careful.

 

Completely twinked out?  COMPLETELY different story.  And you can eat the -Def with fewer consequences.

Again, the -Def was ALWAYS supposed to work this way.

The "Offset by double-stacking WAS A BUG".

[Stormmage]

I think arguing that you can balance a set by access to IOs and Incarnate abilities is a poor standard.  Many/most sets don't and should not needs these end game resources to be fun and balanced.  As a point of comparison look at Street Justice.  It is a well balanced set that is fun with no major problems that basically does the exact things that Super Strength does (smashing DPS in melee). 

 

I have a StJ and SS character I am playing now.  I love my concept for my SS character, but due to the mechanics of Rage and the crash the StJ character is just so much more fun to play.  10s time out from doing damage is not fun, to me, and this is a game.  The -def breaks some types of tanks/brutes against an SO standard.

 

I hope it can be fixed.