Help me decide . . . Defender or Corrupter Trick Arrow and Assault Rifle

[ZemX]

35 minutes ago, Apparition said:

 

Just FYI, Tar Patch is no longer the same on Corruptors as on Defenders.  That was changed over a year ago.  It’s still good enough on Corruptors IMO, but Defender’s is stronger.

 

Defender Tar Patch vs. Corruptor Tar Patch

Good to know.  I didn't realize Mid's was that far out of date.  It'll make me think about it some more.  Dark Servant directs to two different pages on CoD but the powers all look identical in effect.  Is that true or is there some difference there also between the ATs?

 

Still not sure I like Vigilance.  Definitely nice solo, but if I read things right, it disappears on a team when nobody is hurt?  I get that that's about Defenders being more support focused but it would be nice if they always got something on a team.  Like at least a small end discount per teammate that then scaled up when people got hurt.

[Apparition]

4 minutes ago, ZemX said:

Good to know.  I didn't realize Mid's was that far out of date.  It'll make me think about it some more.  Dark Servant directs to two different pages on CoD but the powers all look identical in effect.  Is that true or is there some difference there also between the ATs?

 

Still not sure I like Vigilance.  Definitely nice solo, but if I read things right, it disappears on a team when nobody is hurt?  I get that that's about Defenders being more support focused but it would be nice if they always got something on a team.  Like at least a small end discount per teammate that then scaled up when people got hurt.

 

 

I believe that Dark Servant is the same across all ATs (Mastermind, Corruptor, Controller, and Defender).  Vigilance gives Defenders a damage boost while solo and on small teams.  On large teams, the damage boost is replaced with an endurance reduction.

[ZemX]

10 minutes ago, Apparition said:

 

 

I believe that Dark Servant is the same across all ATs (Mastermind, Corruptor, Controller, and Defender).  Vigilance gives Defenders a damage boost while solo and on small teams.  On large teams, the damage boost is replaced with an endurance reduction.

Right, but it looks like that endurance reduction starts at zero when everyone on the team is at full health and then scales up from there as people take damage.  Which is fine if you only react to damage with healing or something but if your support set is about proactively preventing damage, all that endurance you're spending on debuffs goes to... sabotaging your own end bonus, no?

 

I suppose it's mostly irrelevant though and the decision between Corruptors and Defenders (outside of a few special cases) still boils down to whether or not you want to support more or damage more.

[arcane]

1 hour ago, Luminara said:

 

Glue Arrow.

Does it work well? With how small the Ignite radius is, I’m afraid they could still escape if only slowed.

[Luminara]

6 minutes ago, arcane said:

Does it work well? With how small the Ignite radius is, I’m afraid they could still escape if only slowed.

 

Probably not well enough to get the full damage possible with Ignite's 4' radius, but since Ignite's target cap is 5, I doubt you're going to be expecting that much from it.  Ignite's recharge time is short enough that you can basically spam it anyway, and Glue ensures that nothing's wandering off to the high hills while you're laying down Ignite patches.

If it were my TA/AR or AR/TA, I'd be using Ignite with Entangling on single targets, and Ignite with OSA on spawns, and Ignite with both Glue and OSA on +X spawns to counter purple patch reduction without having to put extra slots in Glue.  Those combinations all work well (unless you're fighting something like Crey Power Tanks, or Warwolves, but those kinds of critters are also rocking mag 8 Immob protection, so you're screwed no matter what).

[siolfir]

4 hours ago, ZemX said:

Which is fine if you only react to damage with healing or something but if your support set is about proactively preventing damage, all that endurance you're spending on debuffs goes to... sabotaging your own end bonus, no?

Right. The Corruptor inherent puts people out of their misery, while the Defender inherent encourages prolonging it.

[brasilgringo]

This Hero build was built using Mids Reborn 3.0.4.7
https://github.com/Reborn-Team/MidsReborn

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Rainbowman: Level 50 Natural Defender
Primary Power Set: Trick Arrow
Secondary Power Set: Archery
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Fighting
Ancillary Pool: Mace Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Flash Arrow -- SphIns-ToHitDeb(A), SphIns-Acc/ToHitDeb(3), SphIns-Acc/Rchg(3), SphIns-ToHitDeb/EndRdx/Rchg(5), SphIns-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(5), SphIns-%ToHit(7)
Level 1: Snap Shot -- SprVglAss-Acc/Dmg(A), SprVglAss-Dmg/Rchg(7), SprVglAss-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(9)
Level 2: Aimed Shot -- SprVglAss-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(A), SprVglAss-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(9), SprVglAss-Rchg/+Absorb(11), Thn-Dmg/EndRdx(11), Thn-Acc/Dmg(13), Thn-Dmg/Rchg(13)
Level 4: Glue Arrow -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 6: Ice Arrow -- GhsWdwEmb-Dam%(A), UnbCns-Dam%(21), GldNet-Dam%(21), NrnSht-Dam%(23), SprEnt-Rchg/AbsorbProc(23), ImpSwf-Dam%(25)
Level 8: Poison Gas Arrow -- Acc-I(A)
Level 10: Blazing Arrow -- Thn-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(A), Thn-Dmg/Rchg(25), Thn-Dmg/EndRdx(27), Apc-Dmg(27), Apc-Dam%(29), GldJvl-Dam%(29)
Level 12: Acid Arrow -- PstBls-Dam%(A), Bmbdmt-+FireDmg(31), ShlBrk-%Dam(33), TchofLadG-%Dam(33), AchHee-ResDeb%(43), JvlVll-Dam%(50)
Level 14: Combat Jumping -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), BlsoftheZ-ResKB(31), BlsoftheZ-Travel(31)
Level 16: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(33), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(34)
Level 18: Disruption Arrow -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 20: Explosive Arrow -- Rgn-Dmg(A), JvlVll-Dam%(34), PstBls-Dam%(34), ExpStr-Dam%(36), Bmbdmt-+FireDmg(36), OvrFrc-Dam/KB(36)
Level 22: Tactics -- GssSynFr--Build%(A), GssSynFr--ToHit/EndRdx(37)
Level 24: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(37)
Level 26: Oil Slick Arrow -- SprDfnBst-Acc/Dmg(A), SprDfnBst-Dmg/Rchg(37), SprDfnBst-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(39), SprDfnBst-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(39), SprDfnBst-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(39), SprDfnBst-Rchg/Heal%(40)
Level 28: Ranged Shot -- Thn-Dmg/Rchg(A), Thn-Dmg/EndRdx(40), Thn-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(40), Thn-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(42), StnoftheM-Dam%(42), GldJvl-Dam%(42)
Level 30: Aim -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 32: EMP Arrow -- Lck-%Hold(A), BslGaz-Rchg/Hold(43), BslGaz-EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(43)
Level 35: Scorpion Shield -- ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(A), Rct-ResDam%(45), Rct-Def(45), Rct-Def/EndRdx(45)
Level 38: Rain of Arrows -- Ann-ResDeb%(A), Bmbdmt-+FireDmg(46), JvlVll-Dam%(46), PstBls-Dam%(46), Rgn-Dmg/Rchg(48), Rgn-Dmg/EndRdx(48)
Level 41: Boxing -- Acc-I(A)
Level 44: Tough -- GldArm-3defTpProc(A), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(48)
Level 47: Weave -- LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(A), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(50), LucoftheG-Def(50)
Level 49: Entangling Arrow -- Acc-I(A)
Level 1: Vigilance 
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Clr-Stlth(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), Prv-Absorb%(15), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(15), Mrc-Rcvry+(17)
Level 2: Stamina -- PwrTrns-EndMod(A), PwrTrns-+Heal(17), PrfShf-End%(19), PrfShf-EndMod(19)
Level 49: Quick Form 
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run 
------------

[VashNKnives]

As a 53 ta/Water def and 53 ar/time corr, I would do ta/ar b/c debuffs and Defender ATO procs. That new TA is really very fun.

Edited May 15, 2021 by VashNKnives

[Xenosone]

I love corruptor but woth that comes pain knowing the defender is just better in every way thanks to higher debuff and not that much lower damage.

[Bionic_Flea]

In this particular case, I think the Corrupter does WAAAAAY more damage.

[Apparition]

I made one Defender for the Barracuda SF.  Whenever I teamed with him, I felt like I was throwing a wet paper towel at mobs instead of actually damaging them.  When the Barracuda SF was changed to no longer require a Defender nor a Mastermind to run, I almost immediately stripped and deleted the Defender.  The damage difference between ATs is significant.  Corruptor FTW.

[Riverdusk]

22 hours ago, ZemX said:

And yeah, Ignite definitely scourges.  I used to use it with Black Scorpion's Web Envelope although you will have an immob in your secondary to keep them fleeing out of the patch.  It's a slow animation but...

 

Not that slow anymore:

 

Assault Rifle & Mercenaries

•  Ignite (All Versions)
  • Cast Time reduced from 4s to 2s

[KauaiJim]

I dont know which AT would be best. Curious myself. For the name perhaps something like Terrific or Terriflic or Trickflic or Stickflic or Trickstic. Will keep thinking on it. Ballistic is obviously a great one. 

[VashNKnives]

It is just so much easier to proc a Defender and hit higher effective defense due to AT modifiers. I was concerned about missing scourge and corr damage also on the ta/water but then I actually whipped-up the builds in Mids. I use all of TA for that def but it does very nicely at +4×8 solo incarnate content. I put the build here.

 

It could be AR, but while ar/time does a nice job also, I spend more time concerned with survival. That is why the Defender ATOs help so much since neither set has a heal.

Edited May 16, 2021 by VashNKnives

[MTeague]

Clearly we need a Wookie Bowcaster for a weapon model, that can operate as both a rifle and a bow wthout redraw.

 

Name:  Boomstic Flea?

 

 

 

 

Edited May 16, 2021 by MTeague

[Bionic_Flea]

Since I couldn't decide, I went with both and I'm dual boxing them on redside -- Automatic Flea (Corr) and Semiautomatic Flea (def). 

 

[Luminara]

1 hour ago, MTeague said:

Clearly we need a Wookie Bowcaster for a weapon model,

 

@Jimmy, you do this now!

NOW!

NOW!

 

Please.

[ZemX]

13 hours ago, Bionic_Flea said:

Since I couldn't decide, I went with both and I'm dual boxing them on redside -- Automatic Flea (Corr) and Semiautomatic Flea (def). 

Nice!  For what it's worth, I made a similar decision (so far).  I have my old AR/Dark Corruptor concept from Live resurrected (pun intended since he's basically an undead knight).  And I've got both an AR/Dark and Dark/AR version of him going on Everlasting right now at around level 20 so far.   I still can't decide.   The Defender doesn't feel weak solo thanks to Vigilance and the support has been great on teams.  On paper... the Defender ATOs also look just a bit more appealing to me.  

 

In the early levels, so far, I give the nod to the Defender.  Having more of the support powers earlier has made him feel safer as well as more useful on teams.  But I think the Corruptor will catch up later because I kind of don't care about the later Dark Miasma powers except for Fluffy and even it just does more of what I already do.  Should be interesting!

[kiramon]

Just go corruptor always. Yes, defender is better. But stick with corruptor cuz reasons.

[Sovera]

To me the the reason to go Defender is invariably because I want those powers earlier. If I make a Stormie something or a Kin something I'm actually playing a Storm or a Kin, the rest is fluff, so I want those powers early.

[ZemX]

5 hours ago, Sovera said:

To me the the reason to go Defender is invariably because I want those powers earlier. If I make a Stormie something or a Kin something I'm actually playing a Storm or a Kin, the rest is fluff, so I want those powers early.

For the same reason, I'd always played Corruptors instead of Defenders once CoV came out.  There is almost never such a thing as too much damage on a team.  The more damage you have, the faster you go (and the less support you need unless it's the kind that gives you more damage).   So in general, I'd always preferred to have the higher damage scalar, Scourge, earlier damage powers, and... "good enough" support secondary.  

 

There is of course no question which one I'd prefer on a team where I was the only (or maybe one of two) support ATs.  Was doing some lowbie teaming at around 20 on my Dark/AR defender last night and it was super nice to already have everything I'm not skipping in Dark Miasma except for Dark Servant available to me.

 

But we'll see how far I get before I decide one way or the other which mirror character to drop (if I ever do).  Should be fun.

[Doomguide2005]

On 5/14/2021 at 7:45 PM, Luminara said:

 

Probably not well enough to get the full damage possible with Ignite's 4' radius, but since Ignite's target cap is 5, I doubt you're going to be expecting that much from it.  Ignite's recharge time is short enough that you can basically spam it anyway, and Glue ensures that nothing's wandering off to the high hills while you're laying down Ignite patches.

If it were my TA/AR or AR/TA, I'd be using Ignite with Entangling on single targets, and Ignite with OSA on spawns, and Ignite with both Glue and OSA on +X spawns to counter purple patch reduction without having to put extra slots in Glue.  Those combinations all work well (unless you're fighting something like Crey Power Tanks, or Warwolves, but those kinds of critters are also rocking mag 8 Immob protection, so you're screwed no matter what).

And unless CoD v2.0 is incorrect (or I'm misunderstanding it) OSA also carries its own strong run spd debuff (-90%) as well as run spd cap debuff (-350%).  Even with the purple patch they should have a tough time exiting the area.

 

Edit: I mean it is an oil slick, can you imagine trying to move quickly on that.

Edited May 18, 2021 by Doomguide2005

[Riverdusk]

On 5/16/2021 at 8:04 AM, ZemX said:

  On paper... the Defender ATOs also look just a bit more appealing to me.  

 

 

 

I'm the opposite.  I'll take the corrupter ATO's purple level damage proc (those are gold), and an endurance proc over a heal and an absorb proc (at least with dark as the support, which tends to be very safe and already has a powerful heal).

[ZemX]

22 hours ago, Riverdusk said:

 

I'm the opposite.  I'll take the corrupter ATO's purple level damage proc (those are gold), and an endurance proc over a heal and an absorb proc (at least with dark as the support, which tends to be very safe and already has a powerful heal).

I did say just a little bit.   They each emphasize more what the AT is designed to do.  Defenders defending and Corruptors... offending. 🤪

 

More I think about it though, the more I think it's likely I'll just alternate between them until they're both 50.  Assuming I can stop making Stalker alts long enough to do that.

[Hew]

I did the same thing flea did wth his corruptor, but found that even with school of sharks, ignite generally just isn't cutting it.

 

Back to the drawingboard, but still keeping the char! Just without ignite...